Russia America Swap

[charlie_c67]

I got thinking the other day. What if America had become a communist country instead of Russia? Assuming WW1 ended the same way, and it happened in the interwar period, what Russian designs would've replaced the American ones in RAF, French and other Air forces or would we have possibly taken other countries to make up our numbers? Whilst I realise that the designs produced by both countries would have been highly unlikely to follow those in the real world, could there be any straight swaps that seem feasible?

Might there have been I-16's vs the Italians in the Desert? I-180's reaching full potential in place of the Mustang? What do people think?

[old thumper]

I think that if Russia had of remained a capitalist country then it would have probably have joined Britain and France in guaranteeing Poland. I would imagine that such a Russia would also of had a much smaller military than the USSR and that the aircraft produced by it would have been different. History would have been much different without Stalin and it is difficult to imagine Germany fighting a second war on two fronts, so in this case there probably would have been no war at all.

[raptormodeller]

I found a cool video on YouTube: Alternate History Hub what if the October revolution never happened. Or something like that, anyway that channel is very good and everything they post is kid-friendly.

Edited October 31, 2015 by raptormodeller

[charlie_c67]

I'm not sure that Hitler's pathological hatred of the Slavic race would've precluded war as he looked for "Liebensraum". The joining with Austria would've happened anyway, as well as the expansion into Czechaslovakia.

The question is where would he have gone next? Down into the Balkans? Or still through Poland and head on into Russia at an earlier date, especially if, as you say, the military had been weaker. After all, the Western Forces didn't really make too much effort in the Phoney War period to take the fight to the Germans, for whatever reason, so the same might have happened in the alternate reality. The other alternative is that Germany would've swung through Western Europe sooner, isolated the UK and turned back to face a Russian force which would've taken much longer to mobilise, similar to the first world war.

As an aside The Spanish Civil War would've been quite different, possibly with P-36's and P-40's facing off against the Nationalist forces.

Perhaps a better question would be, what if Russia had provided the lend-lease scheme rather than the US. IL-2 Torpedo Bomber anyone?

[old thumper]

Well it's all guess work what would have happened. If you went back in time and changed one event in history then consequently every event that followed it would probably change also, a bit like with the Mcflys in Back to the Future.

I don't know enough about Soviet aircraft to comment with confidence on whether or not any of their types would have been welcomed by the RAF. My thoughts with what little I do know is that early war Soviet aircraft in particular were inferior to British and American types and that they mostly would not have suited the RAF's needs and requirements.

I suppose if Britain had fallen there could of been a scenario where British squadrons within the Red Air Force may have been created (like they were with the French).

[Col.]

Well in order for Russia to remain and as a capitalist entity up to and throughout the Second World War it needs to retain the Romanov family in power. Given that they weren't exactly master tacticians during the First World War I'm not sure the situation will have improved by late 1939. What Russia does have, however, in 1917 is vast natural resources and a desperate desire for an Industrial Revolution so mix that in with capitalism and I can't see why it wouldn't have been able to become a major arms supplier to itself and the wider world by 1939. After all Germany will still be seen as a threat at that time. Furthermore Igor Sikorsky didn't have to flee from Stalinist oppression but that's another aside. Other than that I can't see the Second World War going much different. Hitler hits the neighbours hard then goes after Western Europe before opening up an Eastern Front. Don't know enough about U.S. political history during this period to guess by which route we gain a communist America and when but let's say Japan attacks Pearl Harbour for much the same reasons anyway as I doubt they'd change much.

So by 1941 we are at almost the same point except Russia and the U.S. have swapped political ideologies (I struggle to see the differences in practice anyway). By 1945 someone drops The Bomb on Japan and it's all over bar the shouting and war trials. Cue 1946 and The Cold War. We miss out the Berlin Airlift, or rather shift it elsewhere because Communist America is being naughty, then head for the Korean War with Britain and Russia sending Sea Furys and MiG-15s up against North Korean/Chinese/U.S. F-86 Sabres etc.

How's that sounding so far?

[old thumper]

The Russian revolution was not communist in the beginning and was pretty much hijacked by Lenin. The Tsar had already abdicated by the time of the Russian civil war and had the White Russians won then Russia have been a capitalist republic. Hitler was only able to invade Poland in 1939 after agreeing with Stalin's to divide that country and hand him the Baltic states and part of Finland. A more sensible Russian leader may have preferred to keep Poland as a buffer state, and together with Britain and France would not have tolerated a German invasion of Poland.

The Poles for their part would never have allowed German troops onto their territory to attack Russia anymore than they would have allowed Russian troops in to attack Germany. As the only way to reach Berlin from Moscow is through Poland it is difficult to imagine a war without either an invasion of Poland or Polish involvement.

[old thumper]

During the Russian civil war British, French, American and troops from other nations were in Russia fighting on the side of the White Russians against Lenin. Stalin had not forgot this and had an axe to grind with those countries, while on the other hand victory to the White Russians may have left them sympathetic to the west.

[charlie_c67]

The Russian revolution was not communist in the beginning and was pretty much hijacked by Lenin. The Tsar had already abdicated by the time of the Russian civil war and had the White Russians won then Russia have been a capitalist republic. Hitler was only able to invade Poland in 1939 after agreeing with Stalin's to divide that country and hand him the Baltic states and part of Finland. A more sensible Russian leader may have preferred to keep Poland as a buffer state, and together with Britain and France would not have tolerated a German invasion of Poland.

The Poles for their part would never have allowed German troops onto their territory to attack Russia anymore than they would have allowed Russian troops in to attack Germany. As the only way to reach Berlin from Moscow is through Poland it is difficult to imagine a war without either an invasion of Poland or Polish involvement.

Maybe, but if Hitler gathered all the Fascist governments of the time (7 if I have it right?) and launched an offensive through Ukraine, possibly linking up with East Prussia at some point, with Japan causing problems in the Far East instead of going for America, things could've been different. I'm not too sure the USSR had much in the way of allies otherwise at the time, just vast resources and manpower. The two fronts would've been interesting. Not saying the result would've been different and I've no doubt others would be pulled in as time went on, but there is a possibility.

[old thumper]

Maybe, but if Hitler gathered all the Fascist governments of the time (7 if I have it right?) and launched an offensive through Ukraine, possibly linking up with East Prussia at some point, with Japan causing problems in the Far East instead of going for America, things could've been different. I'm not too sure the USSR had much in the way of allies otherwise at the time, just vast resources and manpower. The two fronts would've been interesting. Not saying the result would've been different and I've no doubt others would be pulled in as time went on, but there is a possibility.

A lot of those governments such as Romania were monarchies and were almost dragged into the war by Germany. Just because a country was right wing or fascist that alone did not automatically mean that it would have joined the war on the side of Germany, look at Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal and even Mataxas's Greece.

The thing with Japan was that even though they had been very successful against Russia in earlier twentieth century conflicts they had then been heavily defeated by the Russians in battle during the late thirties. Possibly the Japanese did not feel a invasion of Russia was a their best bet due to their long supply lines and lack of armour. I agree that a two pronged attack on Russia by Japan and Germany would have been wiser than picking a fight with the Americans and bringing them into the war.

I have little idea of how the West or Poland would have reacted towards an Axis invasion of the USSR that did not violate Polish territory. I would expect that Poland would have felt uneasy with the idea of Germany facing it on both it's east and western borders and would have sided with the USSR in order to maintain it's security. Britain and France I assume would also have felt threatened by such a dominant Germany and also may have helped Russia.

There are so many possibilities.

[Truro Model Builder]

The aviation industry in Russia was miniscule compared to those in France, Great Britain, Germany and Italy during the Great War. The Imperial Russian Air Force was largely equipped with foreign aircraft, and I think it would have largely remained like that well into the 1920s, with licence production and modifications of foreign aircraft, and only a slow change over to indigenous designs. The Soviet Union built up its own aircraft design capability quickly because nobody else was going to sell them military aircraft.

As to how the Second World War may have started, I suspect that an equivalent of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would not have existed, and that Germany's advance into Poland may well have been met by Russian reinforcements, which would have slowed but not stopped the Wehrmacht. Hitler may well have been encouraged to carry on into Russia if he thought he had the momentum, and of course France and the United Kingdom may not have been involved at all, particularly if Russia had been Poland's guarantor instead. How things would have panned out in the winter is anybody's guess, but the advantage may have been with Germany as they could concentrate on one front only, and Russia's armed forces would probably have been smaller and even less well-equipped than the Red Army. Hitler may well have had his liebensraum, and a war on the west may not have happened at all, or not for many years.

I love alternative history!

[Albeback52]

^{I like the possibilities. Carry it through WWII into the Cold War and you have loads of interesting types. Russia has some of the worlds top designers but they lagged behind in engine and electronic technology. How about a Spey engined SU-17 or Olympus engined TU-28 for example? MiG 19s in those colourful 60s RAF markings? Buccaneers in Red Stars? I rather fancy a TSR 2 in NM finish sporting Red Stars and carrying a bucket load of missiles. AN-12s in RAF sand & stone finish anyone? Possibilities are endless!!}

^Allan

[Truro Model Builder]

How about this?

Many, many more at http://elkarte.whatifmodelers.com/index.php?topic=18821.0

[old thumper]

I have never liked Russian aircraft one bit at all but that Mig looks alright in RAF markings.

[charlie_c67]

Everything looks better with a roundel

Edited February 13, 2016 by charlie_c67

[Learstang]

That MiG-19 looks great in RAF markings! It just seems somehow... right. I agree about everything looking better with (RAF) roundels - I think the B-17 and B-24 look much better in British camouflage and markings. Same with the P-51. Now how about a Tu-95 Bear with the British wrap-around camouflage?

Regards,

Jason

[Albeback52]

That MiG-19 looks great in RAF markings! It just seems somehow... right. I agree about everything looking better with (RAF) roundels - I think the B-17 and B-24 look much better in British camouflage and markings. Same with the P-51. Now how about a Tu-95 Bear with the British wrap-around camouflage?

Regards,

Jason

Love the idea of the TU-95!!. Now if I could find one of Trumpeter kits at a decent price........!!.The MiG 19 looks great.

Allan

[charlie_c67]

Ruslan with the 60's Sand and Stone would look immense!

[Artie]

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/fantasy_2/fantasy_aircraft_2_003.html

Please, take a look at this link...some "funny" stuff there....

[saintsclaire]

Ruslan with the 60's Sand and Stone would look immense!

A revell kit has recently been aquired to do this

[Albeback52]

A revell kit has recently been aquired to do this

. You beat me to it!! An -12 or An -22 would look good that way too!

Allan

[Driver66]

Come on guys this is all very silly, you will have the RAF, USAF , USSR and Chinese Airforce all flying around in B-29s next.

[Truro Model Builder]

Come on guys this is all very silly, you will have the RAF, USAF , USSR and Chinese Airforce all flying around in B-29s next.

And that's a problem why?

[charlie_c67]

Because it actually happened?