Thomas V. Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/13/2017 at 0:27 AM, brianj1uk said: I've often wondered about how much money they've made from the 1/24 range. The original Spitfire and Hurricane must have been a great cash cow over the years, but how are the Typhoon and Mosquito doing? The cost and physical size prohibits most of us getting more that one (well sensibly that is!), compared to 1/72, but I hope their profit margins would be greater per kit sold. I'd personally love to see a 1/24 bf 110 or Ju 88. Both are around the size of the Mosquito, with available ones to survey in the UK or in Norway, and if broken down cleverly could form the basis covering many of the versions made a la Hasegawa Ju88 or Eduard bf110. They made big money ( several million euros ) on Typhoon alone, in fact Typhoon sales kept Hornby afloat for some time, Mosquito as far as I know did not sell as well but still made healthy profit, 1/24 scale is unique in that it attracts not only modelers but lots of buyers not usually buying scale models, due to its complexity and size. My view is that Airfix sales could have been even better had they released early Mk.I.b at a later date, eg.this year, Mosquito was discontinued years before Tamiya announced their 1/32 kit, lost time because re-released sales were a fraction of those before Tamiya release. Taking into account huge earnings on 1/24 scale kits compared to investment in their toolings, I would be surprised not to see few new toolings in the upcoming years. My list would be. Gladiator Any and many Spitfires Supermarine S.6B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 8 hours ago, Thomas V. said: They made big money ( several million euros ) on Typhoon alone, in fact Typhoon sales kept Hornby afloat for some time, Mosquito as far as I know did not sell as well but still made healthy profit, 1/24 scale is unique in that it attracts not only modelers but lots of buyers not usually buying scale models, due to its complexity and size. What is your source of this information? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Phil Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I agree with many on here..... A 1/48 Hawker Hunter manufactured in such a way to cover various marks would be most welcome and a big seller for Airfix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas V. Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Denford said: What is your source of this information? Former distributor, current retailer. Sorry guys...not milions(was thinking about something else), but around 500k euros or around 8 times the tooling costs. Edited June 14, 2017 by Thomas V. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Leader Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 22 minutes ago, Phantom Phil said: I agree with many on here..... A 1/48 Hawker Hunter manufactured in such a way to cover various marks would be most welcome and a big seller for Airfix. 100% agree - neglecting this kit would be a complete no-brainer. It would be nice if both 1/72 and 1/48 scale kits came out at the same time, however that will never happen. Cheers.. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanC Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 15 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said: ..we could see new tooled Battles, Lysanders, Tin Wing Hurricanes and whatever else flew in the skies during May - June 1940. A Hudson and Anson perhaps? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 5 hours ago, Thomas V. said: Former distributor, current retailer. Sorry guys...not millions (was thinking about something else), but around 500k euros or around 8 times the tooling costs. So presumably he had full access to Hornby Hobbies accounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangerine_sedge Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 5 hours ago, Thomas V. said: Former distributor, current retailer. Sorry guys...not milions(was thinking about something else), but around 500k euros or around 8 times the tooling costs. So, 1/8 of 500k is about 62k? Are you seriously saying that it cost only 62k Euros, to design, tool and manufacture the Typhoon? I'm sorry, but back of the fag packet calculations show those numbers to be optimistic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas V. Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 4 hours ago, tangerine_sedge said: So, 1/8 of 500k is about 62k? Are you seriously saying that it cost only 62k Euros, to design, tool and manufacture the Typhoon? I'm sorry, but back of the fag packet calculations show those numbers to be optimistic... Yes I am, I am always amazed how people think that tooling costs are in hundreds of thousands of xy currency-they are not, one can just ask himself how many models would a company need to sell to recoup their investment and make a profit, tooling costs are in thousands and tens of thousands-not higher than that, of course one can believe whatever one wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 I'll back Thomas up on that, according to an Airfix insider, tooling costs were not the same as they were in the 70s/80s/90s. tens of thousands is the figure I was given. The Typhoon was considerably less in pure £ than the Harrier was in 1970, let alone any inflation factors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 yep, know for a fact in the diecast world its the 10's of k region so would be similar for plastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff_B Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 People have forgotten that the tools in the old days were hand crafted by a toolmaker (where Trevor Snowden mastered his trade) these days its designed and manufactured by computer and the tools are milled out according to the programme. Thus they can try out the tooling, on a cheaper metal, run test shots, refine the CAD design and the layout, test it again and when satisfied they can create the final tooling in the preferred alloy. Those lectures by Trevor and now Simon Owen should really have been recorded so it can illustrate how the model business has moved on leaps and bounds since the 80s 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dim_Thessalonica Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) Realistic releases.... I will limit myself to two very realistic wishes: 1/48 Spitfire Vc, and 1/48 Hawker Hurricane Mk1 fabric wings. C'mon Airfix, in both cases you have already a good basis to work with. Edited June 15, 2017 by Dim_Thessalonica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Dim_Thessalonica said: Realistic releases.... I will limit myself to two very realistic wishes: 1/48 Spitfire Vc, and 1/48 Hawker Hurricane Mk1 fabric wings. C'mon Airfix, in both cases you have already a good basis to work with. Spitfire Vc, yes, as they already did the Vb and Mk.I, as they set out the sprues to do this with separate wings. the Hurricane, no. They did not tool up the sprues like this, and to really do a fabric wing Mk.I, you need a whole new starboard fuselage, as the early Hurricanes lack the rectangular access hatch. Also, while the 1/48th early Spitfires are at the moment the 'definitive' kits of the Mk's, the Hurricane sadly is not, if the Spitfire is an 'A' the Hurricane is a 'B' They basically scaled up their 72nd fabric wing, and I'm still kicking myself that I didn't o over the 72nd kit with the proverbial fine tooth comb, as the same faults are repeated. Some are easy to fix, but the wing/fuselage joint problem is not an easy fix. see here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234986216-148-airfix-new-tool-hurricane-mki-p3039-from-no229-squadron-completed-on-31-10-at-1150-pm/&do=findComment&comment=2059044 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangerine_sedge Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 21 hours ago, Thomas V. said: Yes I am, I am always amazed how people think that tooling costs are in hundreds of thousands of xy currency-they are not, one can just ask himself how many models would a company need to sell to recoup their investment and make a profit, tooling costs are in thousands and tens of thousands-not higher than that, of course one can believe whatever one wants. If I remember correctly, the design work for the typhoon took a year. Working on the principal that a single designer probably costs between £40k - £60k (*)/ year, then that doesn't leave much room (from the 62k) for IT, software, support costs, office costs, business support functions, marketing, advertising, test shot builds, box design & artwork costs, AND tooling. I wouldn't be surprised if the total cost to get the kit into production was north of £150k, but without the finance data suitably broken down we can only guess. (*)when costing resource, typically I take base salary and multiply by 1.5 to take into account additional costs such as pension, bonus, and management overhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, tangerine_sedge said: If I remember correctly, the design work for the typhoon took a year. Working on the principal that a single designer probably costs between £40k - £60k (*)/ year, then that doesn't leave much room (from the 62k) for IT, software, support costs, office costs, business support functions, marketing, advertising, test shot builds, box design & artwork costs, AND tooling. I wouldn't be surprised if the total cost to get the kit into production was north of £150k, but without the finance data suitably broken down we can only guess. (*)when costing resource, typically I take base salary and multiply by 1.5 to take into account additional costs such as pension, bonus, and management overhead. But your coming from a faulty assumption, which is that each designer just works on one tool when they will work on a number so the actual salary cost may be a quarter of the figure you quoted or even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 You need to know an average number of hours to bring a design to fruition and a costing rate for those hours. Both of of those I suspect are only known by Airfix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniperUK Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 The same design team, Simon and others, work across all the ranges, Simon is lead researcher on Airfix and Corgi so yo will see more crossovers between the ranges in the future as can be seen this year with the Airfix cad for the Lightning F.6 being used as the basis of the new 1/48th Corgi model . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botan Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, sniperUK said: The same design team, Simon and others, work across all the ranges, Simon is lead researcher on Airfix and Corgi so yo will see more crossovers between the ranges in the future as can be seen this year with the Airfix cad for the Lightning F.6 being used as the basis of the new 1/48th Corgi model . Good to know, I have made a excel file with formula to predict Airfix retools, it worked for 2017, but now I have another factor to add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 It was well reported in the press that the Typhoon had pretty much been the saviour of Hornby at the time it came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasto Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I've written this formula to predict the next releases somewhat similar to the famous German Tank Problem of WW2 where y is the number of forum requests for a spitfire xiv in 1/72 u is the number of informed forum posts on an Airfix subject. x is the likelyhood of Hornby going bankrupt due to mismanagement. and t is the Tamiya factor... in testing it has predicted a retooling of Anne Boleyn and the Boyscout figures in 2019 so I'm confident it's working.. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeronut Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Quote in testing it has predicted a retooling of Anne Boleyn and the Boyscout figures in 2019 The Boy Scout will come with an additional sprue to allow it to be built as a Hitler Youth. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Good afternoon all I think that the followings kits would sell very well In 1/72 scale - Metal winged Hurricane Mk 1 - Spitfire Mk Vc - Spitfire Mk XIV - Hawker Typhoon car door - Hawker Tempest mk II/V/VI - Avro Anson - Fairey Battle - Lysander - P 51 B/C Mustang - P 47 C Thunderbolt - P 38 Lightning - Douglas Dauntless - Grumman Avenger - F/RF 80C Shooting Star - F/RF 84 F Thunderstreak - F 4 Phantom C/D Usaf - Mirage III familly - A4 E/F Skyhawk Patrice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beard Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I'd buy half of that list Patrice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasermonkey Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I'd buy all of that list, and I'm a fussy blighter! Cheers, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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