Spitfire Mk IX C and E wing, and the pointy, wider chord tail inquiry

[Spitfires Forever]

Hopefully this isn't a "stupid Spitfire question" but here goes anyway. We're the Mk IX Spits equipped with the wide chord rudder or was the the particular reserve of the Mk VIII? I have a few 1/48 Hasegawa kits in my stash but I am not sure if the later Mk IX's with the E wing were the only models equipped with the wider chord rudder? Were the Mk XIc's ever retrofitted with the newer rudder or were they just left with the original rudders? Personally I like the wide chord look, and figure that the newer tail configuration will make a visual improvement in the kit because of the shorter fuselage length. I thought about maybe making them all XVI's but then remembered that all the Mk XVI's were E wing models, plus I didn't want to have to buy new decals for them all, besides, decals for the Mk XVI's in the original high backed version. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

Yes, Mk.IX Spits were equipped with the wide-chord rudder. No, individual aircraft would not normally be retro-fitted, but it could be done. I doubt that any of the F Mk.IX will have had this rudder, but believe it appeared partway through the LF Mk.IX production. So yes, some of them had the earlier armament.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Yes, some late build Mk IX's had the broad chord rudder. Check out the Eduard Spitfire IXc (late) profipack kit.

thanks

Mike

[Seawinder]

Spit addict: In poking around old Britmodeller threads, i found one you started some time ago on the very same topic. You might find a few useful answers there as well:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234970094-question-about-the-pointed-broad-chord-rudder-on-merlin-spits/?hl=%2Bspitfire+%2Bmk.ix+%2Brudder#entry1782444

The Eduard Profipack shows MH712 (LF Mk. IX, WX-D) as having the pointed rudder, and they show ML296 (HF Mk. IX, DU-N) as possibly having it. They show MJ586 (LF Mk. IX, LO-D, Clostermann), MJ250 (LF Mk. IX, UF-Q) and ML135 (LF Mk. IX, YO-D) as having the early rudder. ML135 and ML296 both date from after February 1944 (March and April respectively according to the list at airhistory.org.uk), so it's a bit puzzling why both of them wouldn't have had the pointy rudder.

[303sqn]

MH712's rudder was most likely a replacement/repair. This is supported by the much darker colour of the rudder. There are no photographs of any othe 'c' wing MK IX's belonging to the Polish Wing with 'pointy' rudders.

There are no photographs of ML296 that show what type of rudder it had but it is possible that it had the 'pointy' type as several other HF.IXs with the Czech squadrons did. E.g.,

MK694

ML171

They also had several LF.IXcs with 'pointy' rudders. E.g.,

MJ449

MJ931

Edited October 7, 2015 by 303sqn

[Seawinder]

Those are great pictures, 303sqn; thanks for posting them. However, they do add to my own confusion in that both MJ449 and MJ931 were built late in 1943, and Edgar has stated elsewhere that the pointy rudder was introduced into production during February of 1944. Does that mean that the rudders on those two planes were retrofits, or is there some other explanation of which I'm not aware? Can you elucidate?

Thanks,

Pip

[303sqn]

I have really no idea what they were up to. From Vojtek Matusiak's article, Five to Nine, Air Enthusiast 95.

The tailplane/elevator of the Spitfire V was another section that had not undergone redesign since the Mk.l. Neither was it altered when the Mk.VC was originally converted into the Mk.lX. The elevator horn balance was first increased (with a reduction of the tailplane area) in the Mk.VB AB186 in late 1942. Mk.VII BS229

seems to have been the first so modified Spitfire tested at the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE), Boscombe Down, during February and March 1943. It was found that this change affected lateral stability to some extent, and larger vertical tail surfaces were recommended as a counter measure. Duly, Modification 914, dated February 23, 1943, included the instruction to introduce Spitfire Mk.XII type rudder. This enlarged rudder had been developed specifically for the first Griffon-engined variant, to counter the enormous torque of the new powerplant. Even though Modification 914 was applicable to Spitfire VII, VIII, and IX variants, the modified rudder would not be seen on operational Mk.lXs until mid-1944. On the other hand, it was fitted as standard to most production Mk.VIIs and VIIIs. For that reason, authors often refer to thiis component as the 'Mk.VIII style rudder', believing the latter mark was the first to be so equipped, and forgetting the Mk.XII, which was only produced in small numbers.

Eventually the pointed rudders were fitted in large numbers to later LF.IX/HF.IX/LF.XVIs. their absence on F.lXs may have been because few of these were built with the enlarged horn balance elevators.

Although the modified horizontal tail is often referred to as the 'Mk.lX style', as opposed to the 'Mk.V-style' earlier one, the switch from one to the other type had more to do with time of production than with the aircraft version involved. Photographs show that virtually no Mk.lXs made by Supermarine featured the later style elevators/tailplanes when leaving the assembly plants. Also the CBAF-built Mk.lXs until mid-1943 were all factory fitted with the 'Mk.V-style' horizontal tail surfaces (at least until the MA500 serial number range). The change to 'Mk.lX-style' elevators seems to have been introduced during the MA600 range. However, this also affected the Mk.Vs made at Castle Bromwich after June 1943 in the same late MAxxx range. They, too, left the factory with the enlarged horn-balance tail surfaces. Similar tailplane/elevator sections were then retro-fitted to earlier Mk.Vs or F.lXs undergoing major repairs after mid-1943.

I was wrong about the Polish squadrons. I have found a couple more LF.IXcs at that were fitted with pointed rudders in 1945.

ML293, probably Grimbergen, early 1945.

MK910 after accident 25^th May 1945 landing at Grossachsenheim.

And

probably Foggia 1944. The Spitfire coded GZ-M was probably MA802 an F.IX.

Edited October 8, 2015 by 303sqn

[Guest]

Spit addict: In poking around old Britmodeller threads, i found one you started some time ago on the very same topic. You might find a few useful answers there as well:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234970094-question-about-the-pointed-broad-chord-rudder-on-merlin-spits/?hl=%2Bspitfire+%2Bmk.ix+%2Brudder#entry1782444

The Eduard Profipack shows MH712 (LF Mk. IX, WX-D) as having the pointed rudder, and they show ML296 (HF Mk. IX, DU-N) as possibly having it. They show MJ586 (LF Mk. IX, LO-D, Clostermann), MJ250 (LF Mk. IX, UF-Q) and ML135 (LF Mk. IX, YO-D) as having the early rudder. ML135 and ML296 both date from after February 1944 (March and April respectively according to the list at airhistory.org.uk), so it's a bit puzzling why both of them wouldn't have had the pointy rudder.

Thanks Sidewinder, I am obviously getting old, can't seem to remember all the posts, but after 1242 posts I am going to forget a few of them. Anyway, thanks for your vigilance. It makes sense that the wider chord rudder would have something to do with the restructured tail plane/ elevators. I have to look up what the number of IXe's vs IXc's that were built.

Cheers

[Seahawk]

On ‎08‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 4:10 PM, 303sqn said:

 

probably Foggia 1944. The Spitfire coded GZ-M was probably MA802 an F.IX.

If the photo is at Foggia in 1944, GZ-M is probably HF.VIII JF404 with pointed wingtips but earlier rounded rudder.  Can't quite make out what pattern elevators.  See photo on p.94 of Rawlings' Fighter Squadrons of the RAF (1st Ed, MacDonald, 1969).