Admiral Puff Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Somewhere in my drawing collection I have a set of drawings of Catalina engine mounts and cowls. I got my copy from the Australian War Memorial, which holds the documentation covering 10RAAF's original conversion of the Sunderland III to take Twin Wasps - the squadron took the entirely pragmatic view that since Consolidated had already designed a set of mounts for a similar installation there was no point re-inventing the wheel. I'll try to find them and see what they may add to the discussion - watch this space ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinK Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 You know, with the Australian connection, this sounds like an ideal project for Red Roo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Admiral Puff said: Somewhere in my drawing collection I have a set of drawings of Catalina engine mounts and cowls. I got my copy from the Australian War Memorial, which holds the documentation covering 10RAAF's original conversion of the Sunderland III to take Twin Wasps - the squadron took the entirely pragmatic view that since Consolidated had already designed a set of mounts for a similar installation there was no point re-inventing the wheel. I'll try to find them and see what they may add to the discussion - watch this space ... Hadn't thought of that! IIRC, wasn't it the Sunderland IV or V that used R-1830's? The photos I have seen look like the cowlings and props were identical to the ones used on the PBY's. Also, while looking up data for this topic, it sounds like the only props used on wartime PBY's were the 'toothpick' props, not the paddle blade units, which look like they were fitted postwar and on many restored/airworthy PBY's. Sound about right? Mike Speaking for the rest of us, I hope you can find the drawings and measure the cowling diameter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 The Mk. V had the 1830s, and AFAIK PBYs didn't get the paddle blades until post-war. The search for the drawings will commence this afternoon ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Blecky Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 Here is a link to some pictures of a Mk.V Sunderland with some excellent pictures of the engine nacelles. Looking at them, I'd have to say that they are about as perfect in appearance as one could want to use for replacements on a PBY. Now all we need is a 1/72 Sunderland Mk.V! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 6 minutes ago, Wm Blecky said: Here is a link to some pictures of a Mk.V Sunderland with some excellent pictures of the engine nacelles. Looking at them, I'd have to say that they are about as perfect in appearance as one could want to use for replacements on a PBY. Now all we need is a 1/72 Sunderland Mk.V! If Special Hobby would finally release the one they have listed as a future release for 2-3 years now.....that's the Sunderland version that's my favorite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 5 hours ago, 72modeler said: If Special Hobby would finally release the one they have listed as a future release for 2-3 years now.....that's the Sunderland version that's my favorite! You're right, but don't hold your breath - they've been promising that since Adam was in triangular trousers! I'm waiting for it with bated breath because the Mk V was the basis of the Sandringham, and we had a few of them out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbus Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Try Quickboost QB 72419.This nacelle is dimensionally correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 37 minutes ago, airbus said: Try Quickboost QB 72419.This nacelle is dimensionally correct. Hadn't thought of using those, especially if the diameter is correct, but you would have to attach the carburetor air intake inside the front cowl ring, as the Hudson used an external intake; in addition, the cowl flaps would have to be modified, as the PBY and Hudson used a different size, arrangement, and number of cowl flaps. Definitely doable and sure would look better than the undersized kit and Quickboost PBY cowlings...wonder how well that will mate up to the nacelles- are they undersized as well? I guess I will have to pull my kit down from storage and see about the nacelle fairings. The cowlings, oil coolers, and exhausts are such distinctive features of the PBY that you would want to get them right! The link shows a PBY being restored that has the correct props, oil coolers, and carburetor intakes for a WW2 vintage PBY Mike https://www.flickr.com/photos/23269353@N00/4734227063/in/album-72157624406183489/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 The Academy nacelles are made to match the Academy cowls, and so are undersized. The Quickboost cowls are also made to fit the Academy nacelles and are likewise undersized. The entire Academy cowl/nacelle unit has to be replaced to look right. I haven't tried the QB 72419 cowls, but if as 72modeler says they are the correct diameter the nacelles will need building up. The cowls themselves, as he says, will need to be modified to conform to the PBY configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 On 27/12/2016 at 8:31 AM, KevinK said: this sounds like an ideal project for Red Roo. It's on our list (it got there in connection with fire-bombers - we looked at re-engined Catalina fire-bombers) but as you might expect, so are many other things. It looks like the solution might be an overlay for the fairing and a new cowl and engine. Quite a lot of work........... hopefully someone will do a nice job of it before we have to! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) I don't know if this helps or throws petrol on the fire,but I just got through measuring the Academy and Revell PBY-5 upper and lower nacelles with my trusty metal 1/72 scale rule: Academy kit: length of both upper and lower nacelles, from the aft tip to the firewall is 6' width of the upper and lower nacelles, at the firewall is 4' shape of the nacelle fairings tapers at the very end and is more rounded at that point Revell Kit: length of the upper and lower nacelles, from the aft tip to the firewall is 6' 3" width of the upper and lower nacelles, at the firewall is 4' shape of the nacelle fairings tapers gradually to a fairly sharp point (The shape of the kit nacelle fairings more closely matches photographs of the actual airplane than those of the Academy kit.) The Academy kit does have molded-in troughs for the suppressed exhausts, which are nicely represented; this would allow the builder to do a PBY with or without the suppressed exhausts of the 'Black Cats.' . The Revell kit does not have the troughs, but does have the extended, suppressed exhausts, although they are not as good as the Academy ones in appearance. The oil coolers in the Academy kit are much better that the Revell's in shape and appearance, but lack the internal detail as well as the small scoops seen on either side. Props in both kits are OK, but the blades are not the right shape, and the hubs are undersized in both kits and lack the characteristic bolts; either the QB resin props or possibly the props from any of the Academy B-17's with the toothpick blades could be used with some re-shaping. The R-1830's in both kits are not very good and should be replaced with something better- the QB ones would be a good substitute. I guess the Revell upper and lower nacelle fairings could be cut from the wings and attached to the Academy kit, once the undersized Academy fairings have been removed, but then you still have to deal with the undersized cowlings and the other issues I have listed above. If an aftermarket firm would do accurate/better detailed replacements for the props, cowlings, oil coolers, exhausts, and nacelle fairings, I would sure be interested in at least two sets! (Colin, are you listening? This would be a great topic for and update set!) Anyway, I hope the info above will be useful to many of you. Somebody please check me on this, as I would sure hate to steer somebody wrong! Mike Edited January 2, 2017 by 72modeler additional detail added 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 4 hours ago, 72modeler said: I don't know if this helps or throws petrol on the fire,but I just got through measuring the Academy and Revell PBY-5 upper and lower nacelles with my trusty metal 1/72 scale rule: Academy kit: length of both upper and lower nacelles, from the aft tip to the firewall is 6' width of the upper and lower nacelles, at the firewall is 4' shape of the nacelle fairings tapers at the very end and is more rounded at that point Revell Kit: length of the upper and lower nacelles, from the aft tip to the firewall is 6' 3" width of the upper and lower nacelles, at the firewall is 4' shape of the nacelle fairings tapers gradually to a fairly sharp point (The shape of the kit nacelle fairings more closely matches photographs of the actual airplane than those of the Academy kit.) The Academy kit does have molded-in troughs for the suppressed exhausts, which are nicely represented; this would allow the builder to do a PBY with or without the suppressed exhausts of the 'Black Cats.' . The Revell kit does not have the troughs, but does have the extended, suppressed exhausts, although they are not as good as the Academy ones in appearance. The oil coolers in the Academy kit are much better that the Revell's in shape and appearance, but lack the internal detail as well as the small scoops seen on either side. Props in both kits are OK, but the blades are not the right shape, and the hubs are undersized in both kits and lack the characteristic bolts; either the QB resin props or possibly the props from any of the Academy B-17's with the toothpick blades could be used with some re-shaping. The R-1830's in both kits are not very good and should be replaced with something better- the QB ones would be a good substitute. I guess the Revell upper and lower nacelle fairings could be cut from the wings and attached to the Academy kit, once the undersized Academy fairings have been removed, but then you still have to deal with the undersized cowlings and the other issues I have listed above. If an aftermarket firm would do accurate/better detailed replacements for the props, cowlings, oil coolers, exhausts, and nacelle fairings, I would sure be interested in at least two sets! (Colin, are you listening? This would be a great topic for and update set!) Anyway, I hope the info above will be useful to many of you. Somebody please check me on this, as I would sure hate to steer somebody wrong! Mike Bear in mind that the Revell kit is positively ancient - it first came out in the '60s, IIRC - so the detail in it is going to be much less crisp. A conversion set would be very useful. It could also be used to convert one of the existing Sunderland III kits to a Mk V or a Sandringham. The Sandy would, of course, also need nose and tail fairings and new cabin windows, but the engines would be a good start. And the search for my drawings continues. They're not where I expected them to be, which means delving more deeply into the stash. Keep tuned ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Admiral Puff said: Bear in mind that the Revell kit is positively ancient - it first came out in the '60s, IIRC - so the detail in it is going to be much less crisp. A conversion set would be very useful. It could also be used to convert one of the existing Sunderland III kits to a Mk V or a Sandringham. The Sandy would, of course, also need nose and tail fairings and new cabin windows, but the engines would be a good start. And the search for my drawings continues. They're not where I expected them to be, which means delving more deeply into the stash. Keep tuned ... Admiral, ...and I thought I was the only person things like this happen to! I'm still going through model boxes one at a time to find a set of resin PB4Y-2 cowlings I know I have somewhere and have promised for a friend...too many models and so little time! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Just a refresher - I still haven't found those drawings, but haven't stopped looking. There are a couple of boxes to ferret through yet, but life (mainly in the form of a major plumbing failure - when you operate on tank water, loss of a significant part of your storage tends to focus the mind quite remarkably!) has been getting in the way ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 On 27/12/2016 at 11:48 AM, 72modeler said: Hadn't thought of that! IIRC, wasn't it the Sunderland IV or V that used R-1830's? The photos I have seen look like the cowlings and props were identical to the ones used on the PBY's. Also, while looking up data for this topic, it sounds like the only props used on wartime PBY's were the 'toothpick' props, not the paddle blade units, which look like they were fitted postwar and on many restored/airworthy PBY's. Sound about right? Mike Speaking for the rest of us, I hope you can find the drawings and measure the cowling diameter! The R1830 engines/cowlings may be similar but the Sunderland (all marks) had a 12' 9" prop, while the PBY 5(A) had a 11' 6" (tooth pick)/ 11' (paddle) prop, so wouldn't be able to use the props off a Sunderland (assuming Special Hobby gets that right in the first place). RNZAF flew PBY5's and PB2B-1's post WWII, till late 1953 as the Sunderland MR5 was phased in. Note this RNZAF Cat in the link below has "Tooth Pick" props (Hobsonville Base circa 1949/50). RNZAF PBY Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 On 10/2/2015 at 0:00 AM, Admiral Puff said: Your most major problem is that the nacelles themselves are undersized - their outside diameter is about what the interior should be. Then why not just use the Academy ones as vac-forming masters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 7 hours ago, warhawk said: Then why not just use the Academy ones as vac-forming masters? Probably do-able, but there's no guarantee that it would give you nacelles of the right size, and the result wouldn't (without a bit of work) give as crisp a product as a good resin conversion in any event. There are ideas forming in what passes for my mind on that, if ever those drawings come to light ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Vac-forming something as deep-draw as a radial cowling in one piece is not as easy as it looks, and will profoundly reduce the thickness of the sheet stock used. Really if you can find a suitable existing plastic tube mouldng of the right diameter (e.g. commercial pipe, or tube used for some kind of packaging) then that's the best place to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarLos Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Vacuforming over the Academy nacelle works very well. The final dimension compares well to the Revell ones, also in the pic bellow. More difficult was to take off the master, I had to use a cork to rotate it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 On 2/3/2017 at 3:02 AM, LDSModeller said: The R1830 engines/cowlings may be similar but the Sunderland (all marks) had a 12' 9" prop, while the PBY 5(A) had a 11' 6" (tooth pick)/ 11' (paddle) prop, so wouldn't be able to use the props off a Sunderland (assuming Special Hobby gets that right in the first place). RNZAF flew PBY5's and PB2B-1's post WWII, till late 1953 as the Sunderland MR5 was phased in. Note this RNZAF Cat in the link below has "Tooth Pick" props (Hobsonville Base circa 1949/50). RNZAF PBY Regards Alan IIRC, isn't the one at Hendon a Mk V? Maybe Special Hobby will study/measure it for the tooling of the one they've had announced for ages, and get the cowlings, engines, props, and exhausts right. It's my favorite Sunderland variant! Mike Now, back to the Catalina discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 5 hours ago, 72modeler said: IIRC, isn't the one at Hendon a Mk V? Maybe Special Hobby will study/measure it for the tooling of the one they've had announced for ages, and get the cowlings, engines, props, and exhausts right. It's my favorite Sunderland variant! Mike Now, back to the Catalina discussion! Hi Mike, Yes the Hendon Sunderland is a Mk V/MR5, much like the one we have here at MOTAT in Auckland New Zealand I know Special Hobby haven't released their Sunderland as yet, but sprue shots seem to indicate the time for measuring the props etc. is well past. SH Sunderland Sprue Shots Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 4 hours ago, LDSModeller said: Hi Mike, Yes the Hendon Sunderland is a Mk V/MR5, much like the one we have here at MOTAT in Auckland New Zealand I know Special Hobby haven't released their Sunderland as yet, but sprue shots seem to indicate the time for measuring the props etc. is well past. SH Sunderland Sprue Shots Regards Alan Alan, Just saw the sprue shots you posted....noticed the props and cowlings weren't pictured. Wasn't really impressed with the engines- looks to me like they have both engine types on the sprues. Why oh why is it so hard for kit producers to get props, cowlings, and engines right? IMHO, that's what sets the Mk V apart from its siblings and makes it look very powerful and distinctive. I guess that's what aftermarket is for, and I will shut my yap until the final product is released and I get my mitts on one. Thanks for the sprue shot link. Kiwis rule! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David H Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 This might sound like a radical solution, but since the plane is a Parasol-Wing configuration, did anyone simply consider using the whole Revell wing with powerplants on the Academy fuselage? I mean, if you're looking at scrapping a whole Revell kit for the engines..... why not waste less of it? Aside from the raised rivets, haven't heard any complaints about the Revell wing. Am i missing something? And then down the road, you still have the fuselage halves left over if you're feeling ambitious and want to take on a PBN Nomad..... -d- 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 On 03/10/2015 at 6:15 PM, occa said: I so hate it when they make improvement sets that are still wrong Me too.....Especially when I find out about it after I bought the bloody things! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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