Gloster Meteor U21/U21A drones

[Truro Model Builder]

Maybe being a Target Tug was the driver for the having the deep breathers, would certainly have been useful to have the extra thrust when towing the banners/drogues

Not necessarily. WH301 at Hendon is an ex-target tug and photos of it following its withdrawal from service show it with narrow intakes, which it still has.

[Wez]

Not necessarily. WH301 at Hendon is an ex-target tug and photos of it following its withdrawal from service show it with narrow intakes, which it still has.

Thanks for that, as you probably gathered, I'm trying to find some logic as to why some earlier F.8's got deep breather intakes and some didn't. Mind you I should know better than expect logic to apply.

[AnonymousAA72]

Reading this again, could it have been done to improve the altitude performance of the PR.10

I've done a bit more digging....I've searched through all of my books and did a Google search( for what that's worth!).

I have yet to positively ID a PR10 with wide breathers! Taking that a step forward....and assuming that all F8's in the WK and WL had wide'uns......these were manufactured under contract 6/ACFT/6066...FR9's ( some we know had wide'uns) under the same contract were also in the WL range. Those in the 6/ACFT/7252 contract were serialled in the WX range also appear to have the wide breathers.

So assuming that any Meteor constructed from contract 6066 were thus endowed, the only PR10's to appear in this batch were WH569-WH573.

There is photographic evidence to prove that some F8's in the WH range hade wide breathers. This may have happened on the production line, or may have been retro-fitted, but as stated before there is evidence that main-planes may have been swapped. This could be a cause of earlier serialled Meteors having wide breathers........

This whole subject is very frustrating. None of the references I have give a definitive answer to this, so a lot of this is just my take on what details I am able to find...

And yes, apologies to the OP for hi-jacking this thread!

[Admiral Puff]

Thanks, everyone! I didn't really mean to open a can of worms, but it looks as though that's what's happened!

Sorry if this is a bit late, but back to the original question, there is nothing fitted behind the pilots seat of U.16 WK800, it's just an empty void, though some of the vertical gun feed parts are still there.

I really hope that a good U.21/16 conversion set and decals get released, maybe an upscaled Alleycat set?!

I believe that Red Roo may be looking at revising their U.16/21 conversion set for use with the new Airfix kit. That would give you decals for some of the Woomera ones, anyway. I'm doing a U.21 using the original Red Roo set for the CA kit, and it looks as though that may work with a little fettling - the nose cone is about 1mm too wide on each side, but there's more than enough material in the RR nose to bring it back to fit the Airfix fuselage.

[Biggles81]

I've done a bit more digging....I've searched through all of my books and did a Google search( for what that's worth!).

I have yet to positively ID a PR10 with wide breathers! Taking that a step forward....and assuming that all F8's in the WK and WL had wide'uns......these were manufactured under contract 6/ACFT/6066...FR9's ( some we know had wide'uns) under the same contract were also in the WL range. Those in the 6/ACFT/7252 contract were serialled in the WX range also appear to have the wide breathers.

So assuming that any Meteor constructed from contract 6066 were thus endowed, the only PR10's to appear in this batch were WH569-WH573.

There is photographic evidence to prove that some F8's in the WH range hade wide breathers. This may have happened on the production line, or may have been retro-fitted, but as stated before there is evidence that main-planes may have been swapped. This could be a cause of earlier serialled Meteors having wide breathers........

This whole subject is very frustrating. None of the references I have give a definitive answer to this, so a lot of this is just my take on what details I am able to find...

And yes, apologies to the OP for hi-jacking this thread!

I understand you are studiously avoiding the evidence provided previously that many RAAF Examples were upgraded, but to add to your research there is A77-862 (WH 417) for which there are photographs showing this was done during its Korean service (in Japan most likely). A search of the ADF serials Meteor photo gallery which has many photographs of the RAAF Meteors throughout their service life, including during conversion to drones will give more examples (such as A77-207 previously provided) which shows at the very least the mod frequently occurred at least in Australia and Korea.

[NAVY870]

The wider intake is not so much a mod as a component change, direct part for part

replacement. Unscrew the narrow one and replace with the big one.

What we need to clear this up is the master modification index for the F.8 Meteor that will give all the

relevant details.

I'll check our museums library and see if we have a copy.

[Wez]

The wider intake is not so much a mod as a component change, direct part for part

replacement. Unscrew the narrow one and replace with the big one.

What we need to clear this up is the master modification index for the F.8 Meteor that will give all the

relevant details.

I'll check our museums library and see if we have a copy.

I know what you're saying Steve, it's only a component swap out but, as I'm sure you know, in order for it to be legally embodied it would have to be authorised by some paperwork, a Mod leaflet would permit this.

If you do find the master modification index, could you also take a look at Mod.1192 which was the aileron mod that's been vexing us. It would be useful to know the timeline for that mod.

Thanks

Wez

[AnonymousAA72]

I understand you are studiously avoiding the evidence provided previously that many RAAF Examples were upgraded, but to add to your research there is A77-862 (WH 417) for which there are photographs showing this was done during its Korean service (in Japan most likely). A search of the ADF serials Meteor photo gallery which has many photographs of the RAAF Meteors throughout their service life, including during conversion to drones will give more examples (such as A77-207 previously provided) which shows at the very least the mod frequently occurred at least in Australia and Korea.

Its not a matter of "studiously avoiding' anything Biggles. Australian use of the Meteor is generally outside my sphere of interest, but I have no doubt that aircraft were updated. To do so though would be rob Peter to pay Paul, unless a contract went out to purchase a batch of wide breather nacelles!

My somewhat limited knowledge of Australian useage is that the jets were delivered direct to Japan from surplus UK stock for operations in Korea to replace Mustangs. Presumably spares in theatre would have been at a premium, so aircraft could well have been cannibalised to ensure operational status.

Some 40 Meteors survived the conflict and went to Australia. some were converted to U16/U21 drones. Spares were supplied from Faireys, presumably from retired airfames globally, so more potential there for swaps.

The point was though....why? Did the Australians choose to swap the intakes due to better performance in theatre or for operational reasons?

i'll leave that for those with a greater interest of that particular subject to mull over....

[Biggles81]

Its not a matter of "studiously avoiding' anything Biggles. Australian use of the Meteor is generally outside my sphere of interest, but I have no doubt that aircraft were updated. To do so though would be rob Peter to pay Paul, unless a contract went out to purchase a batch of wide breather nacelles!

My somewhat limited knowledge of Australian useage is that the jets were delivered direct to Japan from surplus UK stock for operations in Korea to replace Mustangs. Presumably spares in theatre would have been at a premium, so aircraft could well have been cannibalised to ensure operational status.

Some 40 Meteors survived the conflict and went to Australia. some were converted to U16/U21 drones. Spares were supplied from Faireys, presumably from retired airfames globally, so more potential there for swaps.

The point was though....why? Did the Australians choose to swap the intakes due to better performance in theatre or for operational reasons?

i'll leave that for those with a greater interest of that particular subject to mull over....

Clearly your self imposed ignorance of the process through which acquisition of ex-works (not surplus and hardly likely to have been in 1950 when the F8 was still the mainstay of Fighter Command) Meteors by the RAAF has led you to the many erroneous assumptions you have made about their operation in Korea (and subsequently) outlined above. I will say this, your closed mind approach is preventing you from finding another avenue for the research you state you are carrying out. The RAAF operated very similar to the RAF in this period and the embodiment of modifications would have reflected contemporary RAF practice. If you wish to dismiss this line of enquiry then fine, but instead of dismissing it out of hand you may have found held in various Australian archives and collections the very correspondence which would illuminate your quest.

[GordonM]

Without wishing to stir up a 'meteor storm' as an obvious Australian expert Biggles can you answer this question?

Would an Australian Meteor arriving with narrow breathers have large breathers retro fitted for performance reasons or some other reason (such as newer parts replacing older breathers?)

[AnonymousAA72]

Clearly your self imposed ignorance of the process through which acquisition of ex-works (not surplus and hardly likely to have been in 1950 when the F8 was still the mainstay of Fighter Command) Meteors by the RAAF has led you to the many erroneous assumptions you have made about their operation in Korea (and subsequently) outlined above. I will say this, your closed mind approach is preventing you from finding another avenue for the research you state you are carrying out. The RAAF operated very similar to the RAF in this period and the embodiment of modifications would have reflected contemporary RAF practice. If you wish to dismiss this line of enquiry then fine, but instead of dismissing it out of hand you may have found held in various Australian archives and collections the very correspondence which would illuminate your quest.

As I said, RAAF use of the Meteor is outside of my sphere of interest...but thanks anyway.

[Greg B]

Gents, back on track and leave out the sniping please, otherwise the thread will be locked and further action will be taken against the hard of understanding and lacking in manners.

[AnonymousAA72]

I understand you are studiously avoiding the evidence provided previously that many RAAF Examples were upgraded, but to add to your research there is A77-862 (WH 417) for which there are photographs showing this was done during its Korean service (in Japan most likely).

At the risk of upsetting any apple cart here, and I do apologise to Admiral Puff for hijacking this thread, and for the tone to go pear-shaped......and in the hope that this thread doesn't get pulled..........

I've taken a good hard look at the three photo's of A77-862 and indeed the first and third photo's clearly show Wide breathers, that in the middle clearly has narrow breathers...........but check the serial number of the Middle photo though....A77-862 or A77-982? (It actually looks like 962, but that number doesn't seem to have been allocated........)

Edited April 11, 2016 by Bill Clark

[Magpie22]

The larger intakes were to improve take off and climb performance. The original small intakes were sized to produce optimum performance at high speeds, i.e. cruise and above, but tended to throttle the engines at slower speeds, i.e. take off and climb. Bear in mind that the Meteor 8 was fitted to enable the carriage of bombs and rockets, hence the need for more thrust at slower speeds to get the whole mess off the ground. The larger intakes have nothing to do with Mcrit or improving altitude performance, although there may have been a minor improvement in the latter..

Attached are a couple of pages of the mods list showing the dates for the introduction of the full rear view cockpit hood and the nacelle nose with larger intakes. The last page shows how simple it was to change the nose section of the engine nacelles.

The RAAF did the intake mod to many of its Meteor 8 aircraft in Korea in late 1952 and 1953. A few also received the canopy mod at that time. On return to Australia, all aircraft that went into service were retrofitted with both mods.

Magpie 22

Edited April 13, 2016 by Magpie22

[AnonymousAA72]

The larger intakes were to improve take off and climb performance. The original small intakes were sized to produce optimum performance at high speeds, i.e. cruise and above, but tended to throttle the engines at slower speeds, i.e. take off and climb. Bear in mind that the Meteor 8 was fitted to enable the carriage of bombs and rockets, hence the need for more thrust at slower speeds to get the whole mess off the ground. The larger intakes have nothing to do with Mcrit or improving altitude performance, although there may have been a minor improvement in the latter..

Attached are a couple of pages of the mods list showing the dates for the introduction of the full rear view cockpit hood and the nacelle nose with larger intakes. The last page shows how simple it was to change the nose section of the engine nacelles.

The RAAF did the intake mod to many of its Meteor 8 aircraft in Korea in late 1952 and 1953. A few also received the canopy mod at that time. On return to Australia, all aircraft that went into service were retrofitted with both mods.

Magpie 22

Excellent! Many thanks....

[Wez]

Magpie 22,

Thanks for this information, very useful. So it would appear that the likelihood of a U21/21A having deep breathers is high, the same can't be said about U.16/D.16's, you really need to check against a photo for those.

The reasoning behind using deep breathers makes perfect sense, interesting that it provided benefit at lower speeds and altitudes but was less beneficial at high speeds. It offers a reasonable explanation for many (but not all), Target Tugs having them.

You're correct that the Mod is easy, the difficult part is provisioning sufficient spares, establishing the timelines for the mod embodiment and whether a particular aircraft received the mod in later life.

Wez - very grateful!

[AnonymousAA72]

Magpie 22,

Thanks for this information, very useful. So it would appear that the likelihood of a U21/21A having deep breathers is high, the same can't be said about U.16/D.16's, you really need to check against a photo for those.

The reasoning behind using deep breathers makes perfect sense, interesting that it provided benefit at lower speeds and altitudes but was less beneficial at high speeds. It offers a reasonable explanation for many (but not all), Target Tugs having them.

You're correct that the Mod is easy, the difficult part is provisioning sufficient spares, establishing the timelines for the mod embodiment and whether a particular aircraft received the mod in later life.

Wez - very grateful!

Don't forget Wez, any U/D.16's in the WL or WK range of serials would have had wide breathers. luckily there are plenty of photo"s around of this mark...

Edited April 13, 2016 by Bill Clark

[Wez]

Don't forget Wez, any U/D.16's in the WL or WK range of serials would have had wide breathers. luckily there are plenty of photo"s around of this mark...

Thanks Bill, it was more a cautionary note for others, some of the U/D.16's were in the WH serial range (I'm sure there are others). This topic really emphasises the value of getting a photo of the aircraft you intend to model.

[NAVY870]

I take task with the comment that all RAAF Meteors were fitted with wide intakes on return to Oz

There are numerous photo's of aircraft with the small one fitted right up til the end of their service.

[AnonymousAA72]

Thanks Bill, it was more a cautionary note for others, some of the U/D.16's were in the WH serial range (I'm sure there are others). This topic really emphasises the value of getting a photo of the aircraft you intend to model.

Interesting point you made earlier about the TT.Mk.8 having wide breathers, a lot of WH serialled jets seem to have them. Of course by this time the Meteor was obsolete as a front line fighter, so a lot of earlier machines would have been scrapped, with the best airframes used for secondary duties, such as TT or as Drones.

In this respect it's easy to see a certain amount of cannibalism to keep those remaining planes flying.

Assuming that WK and WL machines had them fitted on the production line, it would be interesting to ascertain which, if any WH (or earlier) Mk 8's had them from the start too, or had them retro-fitted.

That said, I still find it strange that so many Mk8's made it to the end of their service lives with narrow breathers, given the benefits of the larger ones AND surplus (one would assume) intakes?

[Admiral Puff]

Thanks, Peter - that's gold! Now I've just got to find some more pics of the Woomera aircraft and decide which of them I'll do ...

Cheers

DC

[Boscombe73]

Hello Admiral

Hope that you have all you need, but reading through your threads, there was no mention of WK800 as far as I could see, being the only complete and original U16, at Old Sarum.

This is Trevor Stone's aircraft which knowing him personally has been kept 100% original, and is a star of ours, within the Boscombe Down Aviation Collection, so here's a link to the site:

http://www.boscombedownaviationcollection.co.uk/Index_files/Page4608.htm

Hope it's of some use.

Rob

[Magpie22]

Thanks, Peter - that's gold! Now I've just got to find some more pics of the Woomera aircraft and decide which of them I'll do ...

Cheers

DC

DC,

I have about 90 shots of the converted 8s taken at Woomera, pre flight and some post flight - although the latter are of little use. Drop me an email if interested.

Magpie 22

[Wez]

Interesting point you made earlier about the TT.Mk.8 having wide breathers, a lot of WH serialled jets seem to have them. Of course by this time the Meteor was obsolete as a front line fighter, so a lot of earlier machines would have been scrapped, with the best airframes used for secondary duties, such as TT or as Drones.

In this respect it's easy to see a certain amount of cannibalism to keep those remaining planes flying.

Assuming that WK and WL machines had them fitted on the production line, it would be interesting to ascertain which, if any WH (or earlier) Mk 8's had them from the start too, or had them retro-fitted.

That said, I still find it strange that so many Mk8's made it to the end of their service lives with narrow breathers, given the benefits of the larger ones AND surplus (one would assume) intakes?

Yes I did emphasise not all TT.8's had them, especially when you understand that the deep breathers provided the best performance during take-off - ideal when dragging a target banner off of the ground. I guess it all boiled down to cash at the end of the day whether there were deep breather intakes available for conversion.

Hello Admiral

Hope that you have all you need, but reading through your threads, there was no mention of WK800 as far as I could see, being the only complete and original U16, at Old Sarum.

This is Trevor Stone's aircraft which knowing him personally has been kept 100% original, and is a star of ours, within the Boscombe Down Aviation Collection, so here's a link to the site:

http://www.boscombedownaviationcollection.co.uk/Index_files/Page4608.htm

Hope it's of some use.

Rob

Thanks for that link Rob, Old Sarum isn't too far away from me, I should really make the effort and get up there.

DC,

I have about 90 shots of the converted 8s taken at Woomera, pre flight and some post flight - although the latter are of little use. Drop me an email if interested.

Magpie 22

I'd be interested in those too, if the offers open?

Wez

[71chally]

I did mention WK800 back at post#25. As i say I was quite interested to see that the area behind the pilot seat was an empty void.

Can post up pics of the '800 if wanted, however didn't get any of the aft cockpit area.

If you catch Mr Stone & his crew on site, he is extremely helpful and puts himself out for those that are interested.