FAA Pacific Theater Corsair paint question

[Spitfires Forever]

Greetings,

I am picking up some Xtradecal FAA Corsair decals and was wondering if the Corsairs of the pacific fleet were fresh from Vought or if they were older aircraft that might have been sprayed in MAP designated colors before being sent to the PTO. In other words, in the Vought equivalents or British FAA colors. I just want to nail that down before spraying my Tamiya. Any definitive answer? (Is there really very much definitive about aircraft paint jobs in WWII?) I thought I would ask anyway.

Cheers

[old thumper]

There has already been a thread on this topic, although unfortunately once again there was a lot of disagreement. Try searching for faa corsair.

[Graham Boak]

There's an awful lot that's definite, but the less definite ones are therefore more interesting and get all the discussion. Most of which are the same few points going round in circles because each new modeller (or at least board member) comes to them fresh.

However: the aircraft were new - or at least new-ish, not second-hand if that's what you were implying. Vought did paint their aircraft in US colours rather than perfect matches. However, Vought wasn't the only supplier of Corsairs. to the FAA.

[Guest]

Hi guys, believe me, I am overly familiar with the FAA thread but was not clear on the status of the Pacific Corsairs. I figured that if I knew the Corsairs sent to the Pacific were fresh from the factory then I could go from there. I was a bit trepidatious about the distinct probability of opening up the supreme can of worms on this site, but I just need to know some specific information that weren't directly covered in the thread. I can assure you that when I see some new member who, not knowing the minefield he just went into, asks a question about Lend-Lease color, or just about any paint color question, I cringe, awaiting the enevitable explosion. Anyway, if anybody knows about the delivery of Corsairs to the Pacific theatre it would be very helpful. More than likely the only definitive way to find out for sure is to find the official record on the particular aircraft I am modeling. In that harsh climate I imagine that most aircraft went to the maintenance units for a new coat of official color paint.

Cheers

Edited August 31, 2015 by Spitfire addict

[Guest]

There's an awful lot that's definite, but the less definite ones are therefore more interesting and get all the discussion. Most of which are the same few points going round in circles because each new modeller (or at least board member) comes to them fresh.

However: the aircraft were new - or at least new-ish, not second-hand if that's what you were implying. Vought did paint their aircraft in US colours rather than perfect matches. However, Vought wasn't the only supplier of Corsairs. to the FAA.

Thanks for the info, my path is clear as to paint, but I am not going to belabor the exact shade issue. Fortunately Nick Millman and others have provided enough info for a close facsimile to be produced in my alchemist's paint lab.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

The squadrons formed and worked up in the USA, then took aircraft with them to the UK. I would expect that they would have been given new airframes before transfer to the Pacific, from aircraft delivered to the UK. Lend-Lease aircraft would generally need considerable conversion from US-equipment to RN-standard, and this could take some time. I don't know whether any this was done at the FAA base at Brunswick, Maine, on their examples but Blackburn had a heavy workload converting US naval aircraft to a usable fit. Aircraft were delivered to the UK, or late in the war direct to FAA bases in Australia, so this work could be done.

[mdesaxe]

According to the considerable documentation held at BAe Brough in Blackburn's archive there, Blackburn set up a modification centre at Idlewild (now JFK International Airport) on Long Island and undertook the conversions there for issue to squadrons forming or reforming in the USA and for distribution overseas as replacements (a task often assigned to new escort carriers as they commissioned and left for their designated areas of operation). Not all components required modification - the outer wing panels with clipped tips were delivered to Vought direct by subcontractors for fitting to airframes destined for delivery to the FAA. Replacement aircraft for operations in the Pacific were delivered direct, not via the UK. By the time they reached the Pacific Fleet they were not necessarily immaculate - for example, the diary of 1841 NAS (held at the FAA Museum) mentions that their replacement Corsair IV's were filthy and required major cleaning before they were fit for service.

Maurice

[crobinsonh]

A lot of the potential answers are in the FAAM book on the restoration of Corsair KD451

[Guest]

According to the considerable documentation held at BAe Brough in Blackburn's archive there, Blackburn set up a modification centre at Idlewild (now JFK International Airport) on Long Island and undertook the conversions there for issue to squadrons forming or reforming in the USA and for distribution overseas as replacements (a task often assigned to new escort carriers as they commissioned and left for their designated areas of operation). Not all components required modification - the outer wing panels with clipped tips were delivered to Vought direct by subcontractors for fitting to airframes destined for delivery to the FAA. Replacement aircraft for operations in the Pacific were delivered direct, not via the UK. By the time they reached the Pacific Fleet they were not necessarily immaculate - for example, the diary of 1841 NAS (held at the FAA Museum) mentions that their replacement Corsair IV's were filthy and required major cleaning before they were fit for service.

Maurice

Thanks for more corroborating information. I imagine there were a few "less than brand new" older Corsairs thrown into the mix. It was common knowledge that GB got the short end of the stick on Lend-Lease, e.g. The P-38's delivered for testing without the superchargers, as well as other instances of sub-par planes and components being shipped to GB. Unless I can find info to the contrary I will go with the Vought equivalents and the clipped tips. Thanks a lot.

Cheers

[Guest]

The squadrons formed and worked up in the USA, then took aircraft with them to the UK. I would expect that they would have been given new airframes before transfer to the Pacific, from aircraft delivered to the UK. Lend-Lease aircraft would generally need considerable conversion from US-equipment to RN-standard, and this could take some time. I don't know whether any this was done at the FAA base at Brunswick, Maine, on their examples but Blackburn had a heavy workload converting US naval aircraft to a usable fit. Aircraft were delivered to the UK, or late in the war direct to FAA bases in Australia, so this work could be done.

Would they have taken the time to completely repainted the aircraft with such a workload? I guess we would have had to find a general order instructing the MU to repaint the aircraft to know for sure. Thanks for your help on this Graham.

Cheers

[iang]

Victorious' and Illustrious' Corsairs (mainly Mk II) were generally well-worn. Many had seen hard service in the Indian Ocean before being recoded with BPF numbers and having their BEIF roundels modified/overpainted. The codes were generally carried in a different location, so the old BEIF codes were overpainted - presumably with EDSG or DSG. The patches of overpainting are evident in several photos. However, the attrition rate was so high during Iceberg that relatively few of the original BEIF Corsairs that were on strength in March 1945 made it to the end of the operation. Replacements could be even older than those lost during operations (and at least one was rejected on Illustrious for being worn out - ironically an ex-Illustrious BEIF machine that had been left behind in Sri Lanka). On the other hand, some replacements were very fresh, so by the end of Iceberg their aircraft varied in condition considerably. The Mk IV replacements were generally in a better state (though Illustrious only received one Mk IV).

On Formidable, while the original compliment of Mk IVs was not in good condition when originally collected (as noted by Maurice above), by the time of Iceberg they had been polished to a high finish and adorned with personal motifs. However, only one of the original compliment survived the operation and I've yet to find a photograph of a Formidable Corsair adorned with a personal motif. Replacements were generally Mk IV, but a few old Mk II were also allocated to the ship. Photographs suggest that there was little time to lavish the same care and attention to the finish on the replacements as the Squadron Diary suggests had been the case with the original compliment.

It's a cliche - but true nonetheless - you really need a photo of the aircraft you are modelling as the condition of individual aircraft varied greatly.

IG

Edited August 31, 2015 by iang

[Grey Beema]

A lot of the potential answers are in the FAAM book on the restoration of Corsair KD451

This is a really good book and throws up some interesting info.

KD451 was delivered the the FAA in overall GSB however investigation showed that the horizontal tail plane and I think parts of the main planes were assembled and painted in TSS (or US equiv) by the manufacturer before being sent for final assembly and reprinting into GSB. There is a photo of the aeroplane painted in TSS, Primer and blue paint during assembly...

[mdesaxe]

Again according to the Blackburn documents, the Idlewild facility handled virtually all modifications from early 1943. Much of the necessary material was sourced locally with the exception of specific British equipment, such as radios and seatbelts. By this time the use of "equivalent paints" (for want of a better expression) was pretty much standardised for US types destined for the FAA (Wildcats and Avengers from Eastern, Corsairs from Vought and, later, Goodyear). Given that most external modifications were minimally invasive (small scoops on Corsairs, for example) and the major external changes - like clipped Corsair wing tips and domed observer windows on Avengers - were incorporated on the manufacturers' production lines, I would image that Blackburn simply used US-sourced matching shades for any necessary external touch-up after making changes rather than repainting entire airframes. I did not find any information, however, on paint procurements in the Brough archives.

Maurice

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for more corroborating information. I imagine there were a few "less than brand new" older Corsairs thrown into the mix. It was common knowledge that GB got the short end of the stick on Lend-Lease, e.g. The P-38's delivered for testing without the superchargers, as well as other instances of sub-par planes and components being shipped to GB. Unless I can find info to the contrary I will go with the Vought equivalents and the clipped tips. Thanks a lot.

Cheers

No. The Corsairs were built to British orders and were all new aircraft. Similarly, the P-332s were ex-French ordered with engines that standardised on those in the French P-40 order. They weren't delivered "without the turbochargers" - they never had them. If there were sub-par planes shipped it's because we asked for them: notable problems were with the P-36 engines but these were pre-Lease-Lend (as indeed were the P-322s). Lease-lend did lead to delays because of priority being given to the US forces, but given the circumstances that's hardly surprising.

[Guest]

No. The Corsairs were built to British orders and were all new aircraft. Similarly, the P-332s were ex-French ordered with engines that standardised on those in the French P-40 order. They weren't delivered "without the turbochargers" - they never had them. If there were sub-par planes shipped it's because we asked for them: notable problems were with the P-36 engines but these were pre-Lease-Lend (as indeed were the P-322s). Lease-lend did lead to delays because of priority being given to the US forces, but given the circumstances that's hardly surprising.

From what I have read, supposedly British officials had seen the turbo supercharged P-38 perform while at Lockheed Burbank and were quite excited about testing the aircraft further in GB. The officials were supposedly very "non-plussed" at receiving the non-supercharged units which underperformed.to the point that the aircraft was rejected as totally inadaquate for European combat. I guess that was more inaccurate information that most WWII military aviation publications seem to be rife with. So we can be safe with the presumption that the Corsair IV's were factory fresh in their Vought paint schemes. As for the Corsair II's were pretty worn out and could have had a repaint before being sent to the fleet?

Cheers

[Adam Maas]

From what I have read, supposedly British officials had seen the turbo supercharged P-38 perform while at Lockheed Burbank and were quite excited about testing the aircraft further in GB. The officials were supposedly very "non-plussed" at receiving the non-supercharged units which underperformed.to the point that the aircraft was rejected as totally inadaquate for European combat. I guess that was more inaccurate information that most WWII military aviation publications seem to be rife with. So we can be safe with the presumption that the Corsair IV's were factory fresh in their Vought paint schemes. As for the Corsair II's were pretty worn out and could have had a repaint before being sent to the fleet?

Cheers

The British got exactly what they specified, the engine changes were at their (and the French) request to maintain commonality with the Tomahawk (it wasn't a French order, the initial order was to be split between the French & British, the UK took over the entire 667 airframe order prior to construction anyways). Performance was to spec as well, the real issue was the choice to use 2 right-hand rotating engines caused vicious performance issues, along with the P-38E's problems with elevator flutter, the UK tried to backout of the order for 143 322's, after Lockheed had already agreed for the remaining 524 to be delivered as P-38E's and Lockheed stuck them with it.

It ended up a moot point si​nce the USAAC hijacked the entire order after Dec 7th, refitting 121 with contra-rotating engines and using them as advanced trainers.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Adam Maas

[Guest]

The British got exactly what they specified, the engine changes were at their (and the French) request to maintain commonality with the Tomahawk (it wasn't a French order, the initial order was to be split between the French & British, the UK took over the entire 667 airframe order prior to construction anyways). Performance was to spec as well, the real issue was the choice to use 2 right-hand rotating engines caused vicious performance issues, along with the P-38E's problems with elevator flutter, the UK tried to backout of the order for 143 322's, after Lockheed had already agreed for the remaining 524 to be delivered as P-38E's and Lockheed stuck them with it.

It ended up a moot point si​nce the USAAC hijacked the entire order after Dec 7th, refitting 121 with contra-rotating engines and using them as advanced trainers.

Thanks to you and Graham for the clarification on the whole issue regarding the P-38. Was the situation the same with the P-39?

Cheers

[Guest]

Interestingly I just read a comment on the IPMS- Stockholm site that when Vought started painting the Corsair II that the colors were official MAP colors. The color conundrum continues new pas?

[Chuck1945]

....So we can be safe with the presumption that the Corsair IV's were factory fresh in their Vought paint schemes. ..

The Corsair IVs were Goodyear built. not Vought

[Adam Maas]

Thanks to you and Graham for the clarification on the whole issue regarding the P-38. Was the situation the same with the P-39?

Cheers

A little yes, a little no. The removal of the turbocharger was at the USAAC's request, and was not present on any production P-39 and the UK had assumed that the production P-39 would perform as well as the unarmed, unarmoured and turbocharged prototype, which wasn't the case. The lighter than normal armament was to UK spec. As it happened the P-400 was some 34MPH slower than expected. Like every other user of the P-39/P-400 the RAF found it to be quite good at low level, but by that time they'd already cancelled the order and retired the few that were actually delivered to 601 squadron due to lack of spares & replacement airframes and the RAF never really liked the cockpit setup, especially with regards to bailing out, they considered it a bit of a death trap. The RAF passed all but one of them to the USSR, the exception going to the Royal Navy for testing.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Adam Maas

[Guest]

The Corsair IVs were Goodyear built. not Vought

Yes, my mistake on that one. Weren't the Goodyear Corsairs shipped in non-spec sea blue, or an equivalent?

Cheers

[Chuck1945]

I think all Goodyear Corsairs were overall GSB

[Graham Boak]

As Adam says, the point is that it was inherent to all P-39s not a case of dumping unwanted rubbish on the Brits. There were plenty of British-bound P-39s that could have provided replacement airframes, but by this time we'd realised that the Mustang was a better type, and there wasn't room for both. Churchill having promised to deliver huge numbers of fighters to Russia, what better use for them? If anyone had any reason to complain about sub-standard kit being dumped on them it was the Russians, but in this case they managed to make good use of the type by flying it in its best envelope, and not being up against highly manoeuvrable opposition.

The core of the problem was that, given the still early development of the technology, there simply wasn't going to be enough turbochargers to go around every project that needed them, so priorities had to be set, and the least promising fighter lost out.

[Dana Bell]

Greetings,

I am picking up some Xtradecal FAA Corsair decals and was wondering if the Corsairs of the pacific fleet were fresh from Vought or if they were older aircraft that might have been sprayed in MAP designated colors before being sent to the PTO. In other words, in the Vought equivalents or British FAA colors. I just want to nail that down before spraying my Tamiya. Any definitive answer? (Is there really very much definitive about aircraft paint jobs in WWII?) I thought I would ask anyway.

Cheers

There are several things we know with certainty about FAA Corsair colors, but your question about operational repaints isn't one of them. Some photos suggest that many of the aircraft were freshly repainted in the Pacific, in which cases the camouflage was applied with British paints. Look for unusual camouflage demarcations, smaller factory stencils with original camouflage masked off before the repaint as clues. Other images show that some aircraft continued to carry the factory camouflage schemes - the contrast of the fading Dark Olive Drab vs Sea Gray is very different from the Tropical Sea Scheme.

- All Corsair Marks I (Vought Birdcages) and II (Vought raised cockpits) were delivered in Dark Olive Drab, Sea Gray (the US color based on Extra Dark Sea Grey), and US Sky (which always seems to cause a debate). Brewster's delays delivering Corsair Mark IIIs meant that early machines were diverted from US Navy orders in US Navy colors; subsequent aircraft arrived in the same scheme and paints as the Vought aircraft.

- British Corsairs were painted with quick drying enamels, while US aircraft used lacquers and dopes. The enamels allowed the manufacturers to paint the complex patterns over fabric and aluminum.

- All outer wing panels were built and painted by Briggs, regardless of an aircraft's the final manufacturer. Eventually, tail surfaces were also painted by subcontractors.

- All Mark Is, and early Mark IIs and IIIs were delivered with US Navy (long) wingtips. Most were then shipped to Roosevelt Field (near Idlewilde) where Andover Kent installed short wingtips. Paint and dope priming was removed from the tips with solvents, stitching was removed, and the fabric was pealed back from the wingtips. Outer ribs and spars were sawed off, new Andover Kent plastic (generally fiber glass) tips were installed, the fabric was pulled back over the new wingtips, trimmed, stitched, doped (for tautening and sealing), and recamouflaged with enamels. Photos indicate that most of the shortened wingtips were only slightly different shades than the rest of the wing surfaces.

- Aircraft that moved through the system before the short wingtips were introduced often flew with the long wings for quite some time. Andover Kent provided wingtip kits to Britain for installation there.

- Later Mark IIs and IIIs were delivered with Briggs-installed short wing tips - with no rework, the tips weren't repainted.

- Introduction of the "short short" British wingtips meant that the rework process was repeated - fabric was pealed back, old short tips were removed, new short short tips were installed, and the tips were recamouflaged. Andover Kent performed the work on many new Mark IIs and IIIs, but most of these modifications were performed by British crews using US-supplied tips. Since Mark Is weren't going to the newer British carriers, short short tips were not provided for these aircraft.

- All Mark IVs (Goodyear-built) were delivered in Glossy Sea Blue (with Non-specular Sea Blue antiglare panels) with short short wingtips. The first aircraft received outer wing panels camouflaged in FAA-patterned enamels; BuAer told Goodyear to overspray the enamels with GSB lacquer; as you might expect (though no one back then did), the lacquers tore up the enamels, forcing a complete strip and repaint of the outer panels. Subsequent Mk IVs wore a mix of dopes and enamels, with slight differences in tone between fabric and aluminum surfaces.

It sounds complicated, but I like to think of the story as providing the modeler with options. Enjoy the build!

Cheers,

Dana

[tonyot]

Cheers Dana,

Tony