Natural Metal Martlet in Maine?

[airjiml2]

A while back, Vintage Wings of Canada included this photo in one of their articles:

It was taken at Brunswick, Maine in 1944. (Original caption: Official U.S. Navy Photography Photo Lab - NAS - Brunswick, ME. Brun NO. 753-3-44. Date: 22 March 1944. Restricted.)

I was fascinated by it, especially what appeared to be a natural metal Martlet. So I set upon getting a larger copy and succeeded. The Martlet is even more unique than expected...look at those big numbers (284) on the fuselage. Also, you can see the sky demarcation line just to the rear of the wing.

So, opinions on scheme? Natural metal? Grey? Very faded TSS? Any other comments, statement or suggestions?

Jim

Edited August 24, 2015 by airjiml2

[85sqn]

I saw this on there, could it be in some kind of quasi-coastal command style scheme similiar to canadian venturas and bolingbrokes? The upperside of the wings look a darker shade.

Don't suppose you have an enlarged part of the rest of the photo, specifically so I can see the corsairs?

[Graham Boak]

738 Sqn operated in the US with Harvards, Martlets, and Corsairs coded 1Bx, 2Bx,3Bx respectively. 2BA is recorded for a Martlet. In 1944 it was based at Lewiston, also with Avengers coded 1Bx, moving to Brunswick in February 1945.

I found quite a few serials but the majority seem to have crashed November 1942-Feb 1944: must have been a harsh winter. The ones with later roundels may - whisper it gently - be Wildcats. I did find some of those too, including JV366 coded 2BF, but it crashed in the late summer of 1943! Several of these seem to end in Cat X, but other Wildcats have survived this to go on in later service.

I suggest the colour is white, but it could be any light colour.

[airjiml2]

85 Squadron - PM me your e-mail and I'll send it along.

Jim

[Dave Fleming]

I think it's just very faded

[Graham Boak]

With fresh roundels and fin flash?

[gingerbob]

...the majority seem to have crashed November 1942-Feb 1944: must have been a harsh winter.

Well Graham, it isn't so much the harshness as how long the winter lasts, as your comment seems to attest!

bob in Maine

[expositor]

738 Sqn operated in the US with Harvards, Martlets, and Corsairs coded 1Bx, 2Bx,3Bx respectively. 2BA is recorded for a Martlet. In 1944 it was based at Lewiston, also with Avengers coded 1Bx, moving to Brunswick in February 1945.

I found quite a few serials but the majority seem to have crashed November 1942-Feb 1944: must have been a harsh winter. The ones with later roundels may - whisper it gently - be Wildcats. I did find some of those too, including JV366 coded 2BF, but it crashed in the late summer of 1943! Several of these seem to end in Cat X, but other Wildcats have survived this to go on in later service.

I suggest the colour is white, but it could be any light colour.

OK GB, my understanding is that in FAA squadron marking procedure, the number indicated the mission and would differentiate separate squadrons within the same posting or ship. Many of the photos of FAA a/c in the US obviously deviate from that like the one in question.

While we're at it, how about those strange codes seen on Corsairs like '7V7,' 'llVll,' (might be an l off?) etc. that don't fit into that station, mission, individual a/c protocol?

Thanks for your time and expertise!

[Graham Boak]

These are training units in the US, which used a different system, apparently based on the USN (I suggest). For 738 Sqn, the B in the centre stands for British. 1,2,3 prefixes were used as convenient.

The xVx codes belong to Corsair units working up in the US: the number behind the V denoted the unit. Presumably those credited to 738 were originally in the working-up squadron's hands.

V4 1846

V7 1845 then 1852 then 738

V8 probably 738

V9 1848

V10 1852

V11 1849 then 1835 then 1853

V16 1850

Bob: OK, November 1943 to February 1944! (and this one was 1843 until I checked). It would have been interesting to find more lasting into 1945, and the move to Brunswick. Just how far away is Lewiston, anyway? Given the age of at least one set of roundels on the scrap heap (as that is surely what it is) I do wonder if the photo is miscaptioned? The xVx Corsairs appear to have been all at Brunswick preceded by 732 Sq. - which was formed from a disbanded 1835 Sq coded 5Tx in classic FAA style.

Which has lead me to note that the first Corsair units, formed at Quonset Point, carried classic FAA codes, so the xVx pattern only applies to Brunswick from July 1944.

EDIT Dates corrected again.

I'm sure this would be much clearer on a timescale plot.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Graham Boak

[airjiml2]

Graham,

Interesting...those letters look like 8, but may very well be Bs. Do you have a serial for 2BA? (I still think it looks like 2B4 or 284, but I will admit I didn't know about the code scheme until you wrote about it.) I had never seen a photo of Martlet/Wildcat with codes as this example before I got the enlarged copy of this photo.

Any reason you posit white - that would be a completely unknown Martlet/Wildcat scheme if so.

One point to me that argues against a faded TSS, is that the antenna mast appears dark...just like the aircraft in camo.

Jim

Edited August 25, 2015 by airjiml2

[occa]

White distemper ?

[Troy Smith]

early US Wildcats were painted overall Non-Specular Light Grey

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Wildcat/F4FColors.html

and

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Wildcat/F4F_pt1.html

ex-Greek were supplied to the British

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm

Martlet III 3876 (FAA Serial AX746) “H” of 805 Sqn. This aircraft is from the ex-Greek order. Note the fixed wings, and 4 wing guns. Note the Curtiss Electric prop with a stepped hub, wide chord Pratt and Whitney cowl with one cowl flap per side, and the F4F-3 type pitot. Missing are the intercooler intakes. This aircraft is in its delivery scheme of Non-Specular Light Grey (USN). In addition, the photographer used ortho film. The AMxxx serialed Martlet III were F4F-3 aircraft. The ex-Greek order were F4F-3A aircraft. Copyright is unknown.

Old planes passed on to a British training unit which had not been repainted?

[ClaudioN]

I think Graham is referring the USN North Atlantic scheme (dark grey and white):

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/images/g260000/g269035.jpg

Claudio

[tonyot]

early US Wildcats were painted overall Non-Specular Light Grey

ex-Greek were supplied to the British

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm

Old planes passed on to a British training unit which had not been repainted?

I did ponder that one Troy, but the thing is,.......the Martlet`s in the photo have an additional underside colour whereas the Mk.III`s were overall grey! It is possible that they could be survivors from those Mk.III`s which were repainted with desert colours and eventually ended up in Kenya,.......they became training stock so it is feasible that they could have been shipped over to North America I suppose?

I`ve been liasing with Jim over this for a while and I personally think that they are heavily faded Temperate Sea Scheme,......but who knows? The roundels appear darker becaus they will more likely be more recent than the original paint scheme.

Cheers

Tony

Edited August 25, 2015 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

Sorry: I've quoted all the serials/codes I could find. I agree that it looks more like 4 to me too, and numbers would seem to fit better, but 2BA and 2BF are quoted. The unit does seem to have used letters for the third character, though the only combination quoted in Squadrons is JT187/3BD. There may be more in the Aircraft of the FAA for individual aircraft, but it would take a bit of digging.

My only reason for suggesting white was the appearance in the photograph. I don't think it would have been the USN North Atlantic scheme, as the grey would be visible.

The suggestion that it could be one of the ex-Greek airframes in USN Light Grey is interesting. The ones in the Middle East that survived the campaign ended their time at McKinnon Row in Kenya with 795 Sq. However, there's no doubt that Sturtivant hadn't bottomed the history of these aircraft: to be fair it does get rather confused around this time. I believe Bruce Archer has come up with a better account but don't have it to hand. Sturtivant does however have an interesting (if somewhat baffling) comment that aircraft from this Greek order still in the US should be diverted to the UK. He has a batch of 23 aircraft in the Middle East with AXxxx serials as Mk.IIIs (the survivors of the original 30?), plus another six which he describes as ex-French in the UK. There are however another three AXxxx also described as ex-French Martlet Mk.Is, apart from the ex-French BJxxx serial run of Mk.IIs.

Unfortunately none of the histories have any suggestion of return to the US, let alone retention of the original scheme.

[ClaudioN]

Unfortunately none of the histories have any suggestion of return to the US, let alone retention of the original scheme.

Not the 'white' F4F we are discussing, but… my sight was first caught by the darker Martlet in the foreground, that has the older 'A1' type roundel. It seemingly has a narrow chord cowling, or is it just me?

Sturtivant lists BJ557 (a Cyclone-engined Martlet Mk.I…!) as getting back to the US, and to 738 Sqn, after a very involved path. Could it be?

Very intriguing picture, anyway.

Claudio

[Guest]

Depending on the age of the aircraft, and type eg. F4F-3, or dash 2, it could have been in the early overall grey scheme as an inactive aircraft that was turned over for training. That would explain a lot, but of course it is pure speculation. Do the codes tell us anything about the type of Wildcat it could be? As to the Corsairs, the photo is a bit blurry so it is not definitive regarding clipped wings nor type because of the tarp over the canopy (in fact it looks like a tarp in lieu of a canopy) so I will assume that because of the date of the photo that they were Corsair II's. I love stuff like this because of all the possibilities, but as we all know, getting color and other specific's from old photographs is a bit of a "sticky wicket" (or nightmare, your choice) to say the least!

Cheers

SA

[Graham Boak]

re #16 BJ557. Indeed, but he also has it ditched off Newport RI 23.4.43.

Switching to Corsairs, the first units at Brunswick seem to have carried a number of different styles of codes.

1841 formed 1.4.44 at Brunswick carried codes 7x, x being a letter,

1842 Sq formed 1.4.44 are listed with single letter codes changing to numbers - the numbers are the same as the letters position in the alphabet - D became 4, for example. So could this be the changeover to the new system? And could 3BD in the photo have become 4V?? Probably not - see later

1843 Sq formed 1.5.44 became xV11.

1845 Sq formed 1.6.44 used xV7.

1849 was later (9.8.44) xV11.

JT163 is recorded as 3D with 738 Sq at Lewiston collided 15.5.44 - could this be the 3BD in the photo? It had previously served with 1837 at Brunswick so could the photo show it in the process of being transferred with a light patch carrying the new codes? 738 Sq seem to have been slow in recording codes, as common with training units, but individual aircraft letters are known for a number in their previous 1835 Sq incarnation and perhaps could have been carried over. Maybe, maybe not.

re #17 If it is carrying British roundels on a training base then it will have been taken on charge and allocated a serial. All aircraft have a paper trail that's needed to keep track of engine usage, flying hours, etc.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Graham Boak

[85sqn]

Depending on the age of the aircraft, and type eg. F4F-3, or dash 2, it could have been in the early overall grey scheme as an inactive aircraft that was turned over for training. That would explain a lot, but of course it is pure speculation. Do the codes tell us anything about the type of Wildcat it could be? As to the Corsairs, the photo is a bit blurry so it is not definitive regarding clipped wings nor type because of the tarp over the canopy (in fact it looks like a tarp in lieu of a canopy) so I will assume that because of the date of the photo that they were Corsair II's. I love stuff like this because of all the possibilities, but as we all know, getting color and other specific's from old photographs is a bit of a "sticky wicket" (or nightmare, your choice) to say the least!

Cheers

SA

Zooming in shows they are both Corsair I's. Graham, I think you have JT163 correctly. 738 Sqn had another '3BD' later on -JT187. This a/c was delivered 30/7/43 to 1838 Sqn, from 10/43-1/44 at Brunswick. Went into some deep snow and then went to 738 sqn 11/44-1/45. Survived the war and went back to the Americans.

The other one in the photo is '3BR' which I can't see that has been recorded.

Also of note is one of the wildcats on the right has light or white stripes running down the wings very much like the a/c that served with the East Indies Fleet. The dark coloured wildcat next to the light ones is not one coloured, there is a camouflage demarcation visible.

This looks to be very much a storage area for British a/c. Given the above note that 'B' is for British in the a/c codes, could the Harvard/Texan be a British one for Training? It is coded 3BN

[Graham Boak]

Always make definite statements: that way people will rush to prove you wrong and that's one way to learn! If that's a British Harvard why is it carrying US stars? Is there any sign of a serial - or the lack of one? However, KF305 to 309 were SNJ-4s used by 738 Sq. KF308 is recorded as B1W - presumably 1BW. Sturtivant has Harvards from 1BS+

Brunswick was a British base at this time - the question is why are so many of Lewiston's aircraft there? Presumably there was a considerable interchange on any one day, but perhaps Lewiston was snowed out?

[gingerbob]

I think I can see "something" under the tailplane of the AT-6/Harvard, but certainly no specifics.

[Graham Boak]

AT-6/Harvard is covering your bets, you cunning man, but I reckon it's an SNJ. Sturtivant just calls it a Harvard rather than any specific mark, but I make it an Mk.III. The SNJ-4 is the same thing as an AT-6D isn't it?

If something can be seen, then it is an RAF serial. The Bu No would be too small and the USAAF number would be across the fin and rudder.

[Greenshirt]

Since we're being definitive, so as to stimulate debate, I'll postulate two things:

1) the photo appears to have a few damaged aircraft and they seem a bit akimbo. There was a major storm in Maine in Sep 1944. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944_Great_Atlantic_hurricane Could the photo be an aftermath photo and the planes from Lewiston and Brunswick were co located just for the storm? The distance from Lewiston to Brunswick is only about 20 miles, Lewiston being more inland but not by much.

2) the Harvard's star appears to be in the process of repainting to a British roundel. This tells me the location is a MU and given at least one of the Martlets/Wildcats is without wings and others appear to have broken LG, it may be a temporary dump for aircraft being either repaired or discarded. Were the Wildcats stripped for repair and repaint?

Ready to be corrected sir!

Tim

Edited for punctuation and spelling.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Greenshirt

[Guest]

Zooming in shows they are both Corsair I's. Graham, I think you have JT163 correctly. 738 Sqn had another '3BD' later on -JT187. This a/c was delivered 30/7/43 to 1838 Sqn, from 10/43-1/44 at Brunswick. Went into some deep snow and then went to 738 sqn 11/44-1/45. Survived the war and went back to the Americans.

The other one in the photo is '3BR' which I can't see that has been recorded.

Also of note is one of the wildcats on the right has light or white stripes running down the wings very much like the a/c that served with the East Indies Fleet. The dark coloured wildcat next to the light ones is not one coloured, there is a camouflage demarcation visible.

This looks to be very much a storage area for British a/c. Given the above note that 'B' is for British in the a/c codes, could the Harvard/Texan be a British one for Training? It is coded 3BN

I suspected that they might not be Corsair II's but with the seemingly clipped wings it seemed more likely that they were perhaps Mk II's, although from what I have read the majority of Mk II's were not used for training purposes, that is what the Mk I's were for. I would love to be able to go back in time and walk through that boneyard, but with my luck I probably would have been shot as a spy! The Corsair 1a at Chino was originally equipped with the birdcage canopy, thusly the cut outs behind the pilot seat. I asked them if they thought of restoring the aircraft back to a 1a and was told that there were no plans to do that. Too bad, it sure would be more unique than what is currently flying as Corsairs.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

Tim: The storm appears to have been a bit too late for the photo, but the MU idea is promising. I don't know of any Us-based FAA MU as such, but Brunswick does seem to have been the centre of operations, so it is likely that major maintenance/overhaul/repair will have been done there. I agree about the Martlets being in a dump - they'd have been pretty tired by that date - but scrapping wouldn't require a paint strip, and the roundels would have gone too. Possibly this light aircraft was the base commander's pet - it's probably as likely a reason for being different as any. There are other examples around - Duncan Hamilton's dark blue Seafire, for example.

Brunswick operated Corsair Mk.Is, IIs and IIIs. At this date, it is possible that some Mk.Is could have found themselves with clipped wings as replacements.

The KF30x SNJs were handed over in mid 1943. so it seems a long time to wait before repainting the roundel. It's possible that this is another hand-over or even a swap? There is another alternative - a return to the USN? In which case KF306 is favourite, although its history appears obscure.