How Green Was My Interior - or was it grey? plus info on BS381

[Edgar]

waste of time

Edited September 3, 2015 by Edgar

[Nick Millman]

FWIW the BS381C : 1996 document is contradictory about that. In the Forward it states that the original BS381 of 1930 was revised as BS381C in 1948 but in the publishing history inside the front cover it lists 381C as first published in October 1931 with two more wartime editions in 1943 and 1944 and then a fourth edition in March 1948.

Nick

[cmatthewbacon]

Whilst I'm sure the discussion of the publishing history of British Standards is very interesting, I'm not seeing a great deal of illumination on what would be the most accurate approach to painting scale plastic cockpits of British WW2 aircraft with actual model paint, preferably available today. This is BritMODELLER, after all... Could anyone enlighten me, on the basis of the existing discussion? Or do I have to start another thread for that?

bestest,

M.

[noelh]

Well it seems Humbrol 78 is too dark for cockpits. Perfect it seems for the exterior of IAC Seafires but not for the interiors based on Edgar's photos. I tried Tamiya 71 and it's better but not quite there. So if there a colour straight from the jar?

[Giorgio N]

Personally I enjoy the debate on the standards and the history behind the various colours, so I hope that more info on the matter is posted

At the same time, I can understand the frustration of those modellers who are looking for a recipe for their models of WW2 RAF aircrafts. My personal solution is to add Vallejo's sky to the acrylic Humbrol 78. I add more or less sky depending on the effect I want and the scale of the model (more for 1/72)

Actually I also noticed that if washes are used on 1/72 models, it's possible to start with straight Tamiya Sky (that is a quite dark rendition of this colour). The various dark green washes then darken the paint enough to reach an effectr very close to the picture posted by Edgar

[Greenshirt]

I tend to start with Tamiya XF-71 if I plan to also do a wash of the cockpit; typically because it is likely visible post construction and it tends to darken the color a bit. But if the final product is largely invisible, I go with any handy grey green, to provide a hint of correctness and certainly don't waste time with a wash. Typically Humbrol 78.

Tim

[Peter Roberts]

Or could it be that more than one colour was used for RAF aircraft cockpits?

The photos Edgar has posted here and in earlier threads clearly show a different interior green to that seen in photos posted for unrestored Hurricanes and Mosquitos, also posted on this forum.

I was of the opinion that this was a Supermarine thing (the lighter green) but the photo of the Tempest cockpit posted by Edgar is quite a surprise to me.

So do we see different cockpit greens, or the same colour degraded in some way?

[NAVY870]

I find Humbrol 78 appears closer to the green of post war naval aircraft ie the cockpits of an AS.6 Firebox or the engine bay of

a Sea Venom. The cabin interior of a 31A Wessex isn't far of the mark.

Having access to a lot of WW2 Pommie stuff I have to agree its far too dark for that era cockpits etc but a definite match for post war.

[riever49]

If I understand things correctly, Spitfires were not painted internally with RAF interior green but with a paler green used by Supermarine and much more like peppermint green than Humbrol 78. Spitfire cockpit green should not be used as a guide to the colour used in any other type of aircraft.

[Dave Fleming]

Some early history of BS381

http://www.scribd.com/doc/41577002/The-Development-of-the-1955-British-Standard-Paint-Colour-Range#scribd

http://cpwstonehouse.com/colour-systems-part-2-british-standard-colours/

First published in 1930, additions in 1931 resulted in BS381C (presumably there was a 'B' version). Note the comment that by the 1948 revision it had become a miscellany of paints for various purposes, rather than a list of standardised ready mixed paints. The 1963 edition was the first to accomodate the aircraft paints from the MAP/Air Ministry list.

That's not to say that the RAE had not used a colour from the standard as the basis for a MAP shade (as indeed they have done, with colours from BS2660 and BS4800 coming into BS381C after adoption for aircraft purposes) but I think we are all in agreement that BS381C colours pre-war didn't have any DIRECT relationship to MAP colours.

The question is how the MAP grey green relates to the colour adopted by BS381C as aircraft grey green - the mention of the HMG listing is interesting, because as navy870 says, a grey-green colour was used in internals post-war.

So, next question - does anyone have a copy of the MAP standards cards? Be interesting to compare the RAFM book sample with that.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Dave Fleming

[John]

That's an interesting link but I think, to be strictly accurate, their early history of BS381 is incorrect. My copy:



is the 1944 revision of BS381:1930. There's no mention in it, as far as I can recall, of BS381c:1931. The latest colour in my one is, I think, RAF Blue Grey. Nick has it at the moment so may be able to comment further.

John

[Max Headroom]

My only contribution to this debate revolves around the Spartan cockpit colour. I wouldn't pay too much heed as to the colour as displayed today, as the airframe was exposed to the elements on the Pennines for decades. As a result it may not be representative of whatever green it was painted in originally.

Trevor

Just remembered that I recently photographed the cockpit interior of Anson 19 G-AGPG and noticed something 'green' in the tubular framing. No idea if it's authentic, but I present it here for inspection.

[Dave Fleming]

My only contribution to this debate revolves around the Spartan cockpit colour. I wouldn't pay too much heed as to the colour as displayed today, as the airframe was exposed to the elements on the Pennines for decades. As a result it may not be representative of whatever green it was painted in originally.

Trevor

Not the Pennines, North Ayrshire:

http://www.aircrashsites-scotland.co.uk/cruiser_hill-of-stake.htm

What's interesting is how much of the grey/green survives compared to the other paints. On the Hudson wreckage on Ben Lui, the grey green is still pretty strong in unexposed area, but other colours have faded. Similar on other high ground wrecks - yellow is usually the colour that survives longest/strongest.

Going to brush out some samples of 78 over the years this PM

[Nick Millman]

Nothing to suggest 1944. In the back it says 'Reprinted July, 1941' and there is an Amendment page dated June, 1941 as C.F. ( B ) 8052.

The RAF Blue Grey is # 33 and looks like another amendment as that page is dated November, 1933.

There are two addenda for Ready Mixed Paints dated February 1932 and August 1934. The 'C' suffix was supposedly added to represent those so a break down in document control might have occurred. Judging by the complete dog's breakfast of wartime Air Ministry paint colour documentation and correspondence that is unsurprising.

What is needed are paint colour measurements for actual examples of the 'new' interior colour and less dependence on the veracity of colour photos. Paint colour can turn out to be very different once you put a photospectrometer on it from how it might look in a colour photo. Also the fact of paint colour standards vs applied paint (with batch differences, application methods, treatment, exposure, age degradation, etc., all being impacting factors) could be considered. At the moment it's how the RAF Museum paint standard chip looks compared to a variety of colour photos of applied and presumably age degraded paint. Are they intended to be the same or not? Who knows. We don't even have the hue(s) pinned down or the degree/direction of the apparent difference calculated.

Humbrol 78 is 'Matt Cockpit Green' not 'RAF Grey Green' and 120 Matt Light Green is actually closer to the RAF Museum chip for Grey Green, at least in the samples I'm looking at.

Nick

[John]

Strangely enough, I doubt that civilian manufacturers had ready access to RAF paints, in fact it was normal practice to ask the customer for their preference, and go from there.

I agree, which is why I said:

"...it could, possibly, be is a surviving if somewhat weathered example of a pre-War proprietary grey green finish available to and used by the British aviation industry".

G-ACYK is certainly interesting, but to claim that the interior green (and please don't tell me that it must be original) must be the same as wartime military cockpit green is pushing the bounds of believability.

I don't think anyone has suggested that it is finished in RAF paints? Nor, as far as I can see, has any claim about the originality of the finish been made, certainly not by me. However and FWIW, as things stand at the moment I don't have any reason to doubt that it could be in the original finish but I don't know, hence the caveats in my post.

In any event, I have been able to paint out samples of Xtracrylix XA1010 Aircraft Grey Green BS283, "flip top" Humbrol acrylic 78 and, as a bit of an outsider, Tamiya XF-71 Cockpit Green. I can't upload them at the moment so I'll post them later. Suffice to say for now that it could be good news fo RAF modellers that like Tamiya paint!

John

[John]

Nothing to suggest 1944. In the back it says 'Reprinted July, 1941' and there is an Amendment page dated June, 1941 as C.F. ( B ) 8052.

The RAF Blue Grey is # 33 and looks like another amendment as that page is dated November, 1933.

There are two addenda for Ready Mixed Paints dated February 1932 and August 1934. The 'C' suffix was supposedly added to represent those so a break down in document control might have occurred. Judging by the complete dog's breakfast of wartime Air Ministry paint colour documentation and correspondence that is unsurprising.

What is needed are paint colour measurements for actual examples of the 'new' interior colour and less dependence on the veracity of colour photos. Paint colour can turn out to be very different once you put a photospectrometer on it from how it might look in a colour photo. Also the fact of paint colour standards vs applied paint (with batch differences, application methods, treatment, exposure, age degradation, etc., all being impacting factors) could be considered. At the moment it's how the RAF Museum paint standard chip looks compared to a variety of colour photos of applied and presumably age degraded paint. Are they intended to be the same or not? Who knows. We don't even have the hue(s) pinned down or the degree/direction of the apparent difference calculated.

Humbrol 78 is 'Matt Cockpit Green' not 'RAF Grey Green' and 120 Matt Light Green is actually closer to the RAF Museum chip for Grey Green, at least in the samples I'm looking at.

Nick

Thanks!

Wonder where I got 1944 from?

J

[Edgar]

So, no matter how often I tell you that British Standards said that they had nothing to do with wartime aircraft colours, you persist in trying to find some (non-existent) link.

Truly I am wasting my time in my researches, so it is time for me to quit and tell you to do your own.

[Dave Fleming]

So, no matter how often I tell you that British Standards said that they had nothing to do with wartime aircraft colours, you persist in trying to find some (non-existent) link.

Truly I am wasting my time in my researches, so it is time for me to quit and tell you to do your own.

Err. no-one is saying they did, and I specifically said:

" but I think we are all in agreement that BS381C colours pre-war didn't have any DIRECT relationship to MAP colours."

The provenance of BS381C is relevant to the discussion as far as the post-1963 incorporation of aircraft grey green into the standard, and it's relationship to Humbrol 78, that's all.

[John]

First of all, "flip top" Humbrol acrylic 78:

Against the RAFM chip, a bit on the dark side:

Against my BS381 chip, again a bit too dark:

Xtracrylix XA1010 Aircraft Grey/Green BS283:

Quite a bit darker and more olive than the RAFM chip, in fact it looks a bit like the Airfix M20 tested recently:

...and the BS381 chip:

Finally in this batch Tamiya XF-71 Cockpit Green:

First of all, the paint bears no resemblance to the cap:

but produces a good match for both the RAFM and BS chips:

It's the lightest and least "green" of the colours I've tried so far. I'd use it for IGG but I might lighten it a little first.

John

[John]

Whilst I'm sure the discussion of the publishing history of British Standards is very interesting, I'm not seeing a great deal of illumination on what would be the most accurate approach to painting scale plastic cockpits of British WW2 aircraft with actual model paint, preferably available today. This is BritMODELLER, after all... Could anyone enlighten me, on the basis of the existing discussion? Or do I have to start another thread for that?

bestest,

M.

I'm not really into suggesting mixes in these threads, but most of the paints I've tried so far are either too dark or too olive for the RAFM chip. Given that Humbrol 78 is the most ubiquitous of these paints, at least in the UK, I think it would be fine with the addition of some light grey. Use neat for the deep down shadows!

J

[Giorgio N]

John, have you tried Lifecolor's UA004? It's branded as FS 34151 US interior green however the paint in the tin is nothing like the US colour and much closer to the colours seen in pictures of British made aircrafts. Actualy thinking of it I bought this paint exactly to use it for British WW2 cockpits... And then forgot about it

Edited September 3, 2015 by Giorgio N

[Mike Starmer]

For what it is worth in this interesting debate I have a sample of Grey-Green sprayed out by the painter at Sywell in 1956 when he used this colour inside Valetta aircraft. It is almost a dead match to the RAF colour swatch in the book. There was a B.S. 381C 1944 edition, I borrowed a copy in 1980. It was then entitled 'War Emergency Edition' and contained a much reduced range of colours from the 1930 edition which I also borrowed at the same time. I listed those colours and ran eyeball comparisions. I still have that list.

[noelh]

Completely agree with John's assessment of X71. Lid bears no relationship to the colour within. But it is a little dark. Now going to have to repaint my Eduard Spitfire cockpit. Thanks Edgar!

[John]

For what it is worth in this interesting debate I have a sample of Grey-Green sprayed out by the painter at Sywell in 1956 when he used this colour inside Valetta aircraft. It is almost a dead match to the RAF colour swatch in the book. There was a B.S. 381C 1944 edition, I borrowed a copy in 1980. It was then entitled 'War Emergency Edition' and contained a much reduced range of colours from the 1930 edition which I also borrowed at the same time. I listed those colours and ran eyeball comparisions. I still have that list.

Thanks for the info on the 1944 Standard Mike. I think I may be conflating 2 memories in my belief that my copy was the 1944 reprint. I have had, in the past, access to the libraries of the College of Building and Printing in Glasgow and the Zeneca Pigments and Additives factory (formerly ICI Organics/Scottish Dyestuffs). The existence of the 1944 imprint was probably squirreled away in my consciousness then.

That and I haven't actually laid eyes on my copy of BS381 for about 7 years!

I am a bit surprised that RAF Blue Grey was as early as 1933 though.

John

[303sqn]

In 1943, and again in 1944, BS381c was issued with a reduced set of colours which specified the particular uses that various colours were to be employed. Three categories were given: General Purposes; Special Purpose Colours; Colours Used on Public Service Vehicles.

No 1 Sky Blue

No 2 Turquoise Blue

No 3 Peacock Blue

No 4 Azure Blue

No 6 Royal Blue

No 11 Middle Brown

No 12 Dark Brown

No 21 Brilliant Green

No 25 Light Brunswick Green

No 26 Middle Brunswick Green

No 28 Silver Grey

No 29 Quaker Grey

No 31 Light Battleship Grey

No 32 Dark Battleship Grey

No 37 Signal Red

No 43 Salmon Pink

No 44 Terracotta

No 46 Red Oxide

No 51 Chocolate

No 52 Pale Cream

No 53 Deep Cream

No 55 Lemon

No 56 Golden Yellow

No 57 Orange

No 59 Middle Buff

No 61 Light Stone

No 64 Portland Stone