A Flight of Fanciful Fairey Fireflies: FR.1 & TT.4

[Nick Millman]

Nick Millman's excellent blog "US Aircraft For The RAF" has several posts that discuss Dark Slate Grey. Included in these posts are JPG renderings of the colour. I don't know how these renderings were made, but knowing Nick's expertise in this area, I suspect they are as accurate of a representation that can be made in the RGB space.

Sampling Nick's JPG chip for Dark Slate Grey we get:

R - 92

G - 91

B - 82

Hi Bill!

The approach I usually take is to measure the original paint chip or sample with a spectrophotometer. The resultant L*a*b* value for the colour is then converted into RGB with several triangulating checks along the way. It would be nice to somehow provide people with actual painted paint chips but the nature of internet communications means that accurate RGB chips can convey the most to more, are better than nothing and certainly better than a photo of a chip. But they can only be a best endeavour guide to the original paint colour standard as intended. Triangulation with other data is recommended and I try to provide it in terms of quantified difference comparisons with FS, RAL, Munsell and Methuen as well as, where appropriate, the relevant Hex #.

Taking the MAP swatch for Dark Slate Grey the RGB should calculate as 92 91 80 so your sampling is pretty accurate. The difference is in the Green value but the two RGB sequences have a difference of only 1.00 where < 2.0 = a close match so nothing to worry about given that wartime applied paints can typically vary up to about 5.00.

There are no close FS or RAL values to Dark Slate Grey. FS 34086 is too dark @ 2.68, FS 34096 is too green @ 3.92 and RAL 7010 is too grey @ 3.40! It is, unfortunately one of those tricky beasts that is hard to pin down in descriptive colour terms. It is a Munsell GY - Green Yellow - and gives the impression of a slightly grey-greenish olive drab. Most model paints seem to be closer to representing Light Slate Grey which is distinctly more greenish in appearance. Whether that is an attempt to introduce 'scale' I have no idea.

Don't forget also that the paint applied to the model will probably alter in appearance once the EDSG is applied due to the visual juxtaposition of two contrasting colours (EDSG is a Munsell PB - Purple Blue). The contrast between the reflectivity of each paint colour is only 2% with EDSG starting out darker at 10%.

Regards

Nick

[Nick Millman]

Ah, the joys of Naval modelling, "EDSG, discuss..." and there you are many hours later, and still not sure. (See also RLM colours, RAF Sky, RN camouflage.... OK, pretty much all painting!).

Well, I'm pretty much as sure as sure can be about all those, thanks, given the inherent nature of colour science.

Unfortunately objective analysis and subjective opinion sometimes conflict rather than complement often resulting in confusion.

Nick

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Well, I'm pretty much as sure as sure can be about all those, thanks, given the inherent nature of colour science.

Unfortunately objective analysis and subjective opinion sometimes conflict rather than complement often resulting in confusion.

Nick

Oh, I know you know what you are talking about, but finding a paint to represent it in a way that looks right (subjective in itself) after taking into account scale effect etc. is another matter. I know what a real Sea Vixen looks like. Trying to get a 1/48 version of it to APPEAR right is another matter, colour science or not.

I take issue, though, with your choice of the word "confusion". Having had the tail cone of my Lynx resprayed at sea after repair, I also know from personal experience that even on the real thing the paint looks different straight out of the can. The paint was identical, RN issue, even from the same batch (we had kept some after a respray of the whole aircraft a few months earlier back at base).... but you could see the 'join' very clearly for quite some time.

Your "objective analysis" would suggest that the new tail was correct, and the rest... what? Faded? Changed? Stained? Possibly all of those... (surely not "wrong")? Which one was "confused" - the new tail, the old fuselage, or what?

Sorry to disagree with you, but modelling is an art. "Triangulation with other data... and quantified difference comparisons with FS, RAL, Munsell, Methuen and Hex#" can take you, no doubt, to as close a match to original paint standards etc. as possible. But it still won't necessarily look right on the model, which is what we are trying to achieve here. Since it didn't always look "right" on the real thing, is that a surprise?

Edited November 7, 2015 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Nick Millman]

Oh, I know you know what you are talking about, but finding a paint to represent it in a way that looks right (subjective in itself) after taking into account scale effect etc. is another matter. I know what a real Sea Vixen looks like. Trying to get a 1/48 version of it to APPEAR right is another matter, colour science or not.

So in getting it to appear right, what guidance is there? In your case personal observation of the real thing. But not everyone has the advantage of that and must resort to other reference data. The starting point of that is usually the colour as intended by the official paint colour standard, which is what my post refers to and which is precisely quantifiable in colour science terms. Here's a clue in the original comment:-

But they (RGB rendered chips) can only be a best endeavour guide to the original paint colour standard as intended.

I take issue, though, with your choice of the word "confusion". Having had the tail cone of my Lynx resprayed at sea after repair, I also know from personal experience that even on the real thing the paint looks different straight out of the can. The paint was identical, RN issue, even from the same batch (we had kept some after a respray of the whole aircraft a few months earlier back at base).... but you could see the 'join' very clearly for quite some time.

Well, you probably shouldn't because it wasn't referring to the variance in applied paints on your Lynx but confusion about the precise hue and character of the official colour standard in the minds of those trying to understand it and who have never seen them or your Lynx. I bore on about the difference between a paint colour standard and applied paints (which your anecdotal observation describes) often enough so please don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

Your "objective analysis" would suggest that the new tail was correct, and the rest... what? Faded? Changed? Stained? Possibly all of those... (surely not "wrong")? Which one was "confused" - the new tail, the old fuselage, or what?

No it wouldn't, since I have never conducted an objective analysis of the paint on the tail of your Lynx and couldn't possibly confirm how far from standard it was or wasn't or how it might be degraded and why. The "confusion" referred to an understanding of the appearance of the paint colour standard by those who have never seen it and who have to wade through objective analysis and subjective opinion in online discussion threads. Even you might find it difficult to take everybody who was interested back in time to see your Lynx for themselves. And even then, human eyesight and colour acuity being what it is, not everyone would "see" the same colours.

Sorry to disagree with you, but modelling is an art. "Triangulation with other data... and quantified difference comparisons with FS, RAL, Munsell, Methuen and Hex#" can take you, no doubt, to as close a match to original paint standards etc. as possible. But it still won't necessarily look right on the model, which is what we are trying to achieve here. Since it didn't always look "right" on the real thing, is that a surprise?

Well don't be sorry to disagree because I kind of already know that modelling is an art and nowhere in my comments did I suggest that it wasn't! Whether paint colour looks right on a model is back to subjective opinion but without the paint colour standard as a starting point modellers without your first hand insight into the colours of Sea Vixens and Lynx would have little to go on. And hobby paint manufacturers might as well produce generic colours instead of those designed to match the official colours as they were intended (and variance applies to hobby paints too). If you have a look at the front pages of BS 381C you will see that each colour is expressed in precise colorimetric values across four different colour measurement systems. Feel free to write to the British Standards Institute and tell them that is not as useful to an understanding of how the colour should look as your memory of the paint on your Lynx. And at the end of the day anyone who doesn't think that the official colour standard should have any bearing on the paint on their model is free to paint it any colour they like.

I've endeavoured to share data here arrived at by objective analysis and intended to help modellers make those choices, and btw I did so by invitation. All you've done is to suggest that whatever colour is chosen might not look right and that there is variance in applied paints. Well, thanks for that but I already knew it.

My apologies for the digression from the OP's build thread.

Nick

[Navy Bird]

On 11/7/2015 at 05:59, Nick Millman said:

Hi Bill!

The approach I usually take is to measure the original paint chip or sample with a spectrophotometer. The resultant L*a*b* value for the colour is then converted into RGB with several triangulating checks along the way. It would be nice to somehow provide people with actual painted paint chips but the nature of internet communications means that accurate RGB chips can convey the most to more, are better than nothing and certainly better than a photo of a chip. But they can only be a best endeavour guide to the original paint colour standard as intended. Triangulation with other data is recommended and I try to provide it in terms of quantified difference comparisons with FS, RAL, Munsell and Methuen as well as, where appropriate, the relevant Hex #.

Taking the MAP swatch for Dark Slate Grey the RGB should calculate as 92 91 80 so your sampling is pretty accurate. The difference is in the Green value but the two RGB sequences have a difference of only 1.00 where < 2.0 = a close match so nothing to worry about given that wartime applied paints can typically vary up to about 5.00.

There are no close FS or RAL values to Dark Slate Grey. FS 34086 is too dark @ 2.68, FS 34096 is too green @ 3.92 and RAL 7010 is too grey @ 3.40! It is, unfortunately one of those tricky beasts that is hard to pin down in descriptive colour terms. It is a Munsell GY - Green Yellow - and gives the impression of a slightly grey-greenish olive drab. Most model paints seem to be closer to representing Light Slate Grey which is distinctly more greenish in appearance. Whether that is an attempt to introduce 'scale' I have no idea.

Don't forget also that the paint applied to the model will probably alter in appearance once the EDSG is applied due to the visual juxtaposition of two contrasting colours (EDSG is a Munsell PB - Purple Blue). The contrast between the reflectivity of each paint colour is only 2% with EDSG starting out darker at 10%.

Regards

Nick

 

Thanks, Nick!

 

As a regular reader of your blogs, I also follow the discussions here on BM where you are able to provide us with your expertise relating to colour. I have learned so much from these discussions, and I think it's made me a better modeller because I now have a much better understanding of the factors that affect "what you see."

 

I find it interesting that my sampling of your chip was close to what it should be. My PC workstation is using a default sRGB colour profile, specifically sRGB IEC6 1966-2.1.

 

I also sampled your chip for Extra Dark Sea Grey, which is another colour where I see a wide variation on this forum. My understanding is that there is a large variation in real life as well, due to chalking and fading, and all the other factors that affect the paint. Anyway, I sampled the EDSG chip at RGB 79 84 91 - how close is that?

 

It's also good to know that EDSG is 10% darker (if I'm reading that correctly) when new. I don't think that is something that I can measure, unless it can be calculated using the RGB values.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. While we're at it, my sampling of Sky came out as RGB 178 180 158. I suspect this is also a Munsell Green-Yellow?

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

No point in continuing this one. Anyone who starts off with "well, I'm pretty much as sure as sure can be about all of those (colours)" isn't exactly entering a discussion with an open mind.

Have fun with your paint chips.

[Nick Millman]

Thanks, Nick!

As a regular reader of your blogs, I also follow the discussions here on BM where you are able to provide us with your expertise relating to colour. I have learned so much from these discussions, and I think it's made me a better modeller because I now have a much better understanding of the factors that affect "what you see."

I find it interesting that my sampling of your chip was close to what it should be. My PC workstation is using a default sRGB colour profile, specifically sRGB IEC6 1966-2.1.

I also sampled your chip for Extra Dark Sea Grey, which is another colour where I see a wide variation on this forum. My understanding is that there is a large variation in real life as well, due to chalking and fading, and all the other factors that affect the paint. Anyway, I sampled the EDSG chip at RGB 79 84 91 - how close is that?

It's also good to know that EDSG is 10% darker (if I'm reading that correctly) when new. I don't think that is something that I can measure, unless it can be calculated using the RGB values.

Cheers,

Bill

PS. While we're at it, my sampling of Sky came out as RGB 178 180 158. I suspect this is also a Munsell Green-Yellow?

Hi Bill

Thanks! I also use sRGB IEC6 1966-2.1.

EDSG 76 84 91 difference @ 1.56 from your sampling. FAA testing in 1951 revealed a strong tendency for EDSG to chalk and fade. On the Cellon samples tested the variance from standard after 6 months exposure was over 10 with the paint becoming almost a neutral grey in appearance and the report concluding that the blue in the hue had been almost completely lost.

Sky 179 182 158 difference @ 0.97 from your sampling and yes, Munsell Green Yellow.

To clarify EDSG is 10% reflectivity and Dark Slate Grey 12% reflectivity so EDSG is only 2% darker.

Regards

Nick

[Nick Millman]

No point in continuing this one. Anyone who starts off with "well, I'm pretty much as sure as sure can be about all of those (colours)" isn't exactly entering a discussion with an open mind.

Have fun with your paint chips.

Well, again I was referring to the MAP standards for those colours which I've measured, and some of which are still contained in BS 381c with specific colorimetric values as mentioned above. So I stand by that. And I addressed the points you made in response to that which you have chosen to ignore in preference to having another pop at it instead.

As for having fun with my paint chips, making a scornful remark like that is easy but actually working through the colour data is a bit harder.

Nick

[NAVY870]

Whilst we are discussing paint, does anyone know where I can get a couple of gallons of EDSG in 1/1 scale?

[ejboyd5]

Now that we have all the Firefly experts gathered in one place, I have a question: Did any of the Firefly drone aircraft (U8) retain the wing fold mechanism? I believe not, but would dearly like to attempt a folded wing example sporting the cream and red paint scheme, hence my search for one that might have slipped through the conversion process with the fold intact.

[Navy Bird]

On 11/7/2015 at 14:05, NAVY870 said:

Whilst we are discussing paint, does anyone know where I can get a couple of gallons of EDSG in 1/1 scale?

 

Why, Paints 'R' Us, of course! All BS381C colours available.

 

http://www.paintsrus.co.uk/paints/bs381c/2-5lt-bs381c-colour-matt-military-vehicle-paint-381c-colours/prod_116.html

 

But I suspect that you need a supplier in Australia...I searched the net for quite some time and wasn't able to find any. I'm sure this is the same situation you've encountered. Most of the sites I found that sold military paint in 381C colours were in the UK - and they had the lovely disclaimer about Royal Mail not allowing them to ship paint outside of the UK.

 

There's always 757 10ml bottles of Mr. Color C333!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

On 11/7/2015 at 13:27, Nick Millman said:

EDSG 76 84 91 difference @ 1.56 from your sampling. FAA testing in 1951 revealed a strong tendency for EDSG to chalk and fade. On the Cellon samples tested the variance from standard after 6 months exposure was over 10 with the paint becoming almost a neutral grey in appearance and the report concluding that the blue in the hue had been almost completely lost.

 

Depending on how much the Dark Slate Grey may have chalked or faded at the same time, is this the reason why we see so many in service photos where DSG seems darker than EDSG?

 

On 11/7/2015 at 14:30, ejboyd5 said:

Now that we have all the Firefly experts gathered in one place, I have a question: Did any of the Firefly drone aircraft (U8) retain the wing fold mechanism? I believe not, but would dearly like to attempt a folded wing example sporting the cream and red paint scheme, hence my search for one that might have slipped through the conversion process with the fold intact.

 

Great question! According to the new MDF Scaled Down volume on the Fairey Firefly, the wing fold mechanism was removed on U.8 aircraft. Whether one slipped through the process, I don't know. Can anyone else help?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

Don't you love it when you suddenly realize you've forgotten something important? In the case of the Firefly FR.1, it's the armament! Those four cannons are quite noticeable. I think in the back of my mind (scary place) I figured I'd leave them off until the end, to prevent knocking them off accidentally. Which is probably still the plan, but I'd like to know how they fit first, just in case it's a big job adding these to the leading edge of the wing.

 

Special Hobby provides the long style cannon fairings in resin, which is much nicer than what you would get if they were injection moulded, but not up to the standard of the Master turned metal cannon fairings. I'd love to use the Master parts, but I'm not a fan of drilling a big hole into the leading edge of the wing, especially when the diameter of the hole is almost half the thickness of the wing! So I've decided to use the resin cannon fairings.

 

 

After removing the cannon and trimming it up with a needle file, here is what we have to work with. Special Hobby has added a flange to the fairing - most likely to give the CA more area to stick. In real life, though, the cannon fairings had no flange such as this. I'll sand most of the resin flange away, but make sure I keep a curvature on the aft end of the cannon that matches the leading edge. When I get around to adding them, I'll probably drill a small hole into both wing and cannon, to allow for a small diameter wire for extra strength.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

... a scornful remark like that...

You are right - the scornful remark was not worthy of the habitual tolerance of this place, and I apologise.

We are not going to agree on the rest of it, so I propose to say nothing more, not least because I don't want to detract from Bill's most excellent build.

[Nick Millman]

You are right - the scornful remark was not worthy of the habitual tolerance of this place, and I apologise.

We are not going to agree on the rest of it, so I propose to say nothing more, not least because I don't want to detract from Bill's most excellent build.

Apology accepted but frankly I'm still not sure what you think you are disagreeing with. I made it very clear that I was referring to the official colour standard for EDSG which had a precise, fixable colour space and you were rightly remarking the variance in applied paints to that standard and the aspect of modelling technique, with which I have absolutely no issue anyway.

I don't believe those are mutually exclusive or cannot happily co-exist in modelling.

Nick

[Navy Bird]

I took some WEM Colourcoats Extra Dark Sea Grey and sprayed a bit of the camo pattern last night. Ignore everything aft of the cockpit as I cocked up the pattern and will have to spray some Dark Slate Grey to recover. Here is where we are:

 

 

As before, you get a huge variation in the RGB values when you sample this photo, due to the lighting, etc., but I would say that the top surface of the port wing shows the best representation of what this looks like in real life. For both colours...

 

What do you guys think? There will be some pastel weathering no doubt, which will change the appearance, but I would like to have the starting point as good as I can. I thought about using Gunze H333 Extra Dark Sea Grey but it is considerably darker than this. I also thought about using Gunze H331 Dark Sea Grey, but it seems much lighter and bluer than this. It may come in handy for some post shading, but if EDSG faded to almost a neutral grey, then the blue component of the colour would be a problem.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. The Colourcoats paint sprays excellently! Very nice indeed. I used Testors Universal Enamel Thinner and had no problems at all.

[modelglue]

HI Bill,

I've read through this from the beginning, starting last night and I admit some of it was lost on me and some of it I had to speed through. Extraordinary work so far, as per usual.

I see you were in California just before I was, I did manage to get to Palm Springs and the air museum there where "Bunny" the P-51D landed before my eyes. Awesome experience. She came in from Chino as I understand.

Back to the thread: I was wanting both these kits for future fun, but after seeing the work to the chin of the later mark, I have to submit to reason and delete that one from my wants list. I think you have done a truly superb job or correcting the nose but that is beyond my skills (which are waning lately).

I'm glad to get back on to BM and see you are doing well, I wish you continued good health and model success.

Looking forward to the rest of this with brew in hand!

[John Laidlaw]

The EDSG looks very nice to me - very nice indeed. Works well with the DSG as well.

Just out of interest, where did you source the WEM paint?

[Col.]

The colours look good to me but that's a rather subjective assessment At the very least a good basis for the weathering process.

The EDSG looks very nice to me - very nice indeed. Works well with the DSG as well.

Just out of interest, where did you source the WEM paint?

Sovereign Hobbies have taken over production of the Colourcoats range and have their own website:

www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

[Navy Bird]

On 11/8/2015 at 13:05, modelglue said:

HI Bill,

I've read through this from the beginning, starting last night and I admit some of it was lost on me and some of it I had to speed through. Extraordinary work so far, as per usual.

I see you were in California just before I was, I did manage to get to Palm Springs and the air museum there where "Bunny" the P-51D landed before my eyes. Awesome experience. She came in from Chino as I understand.

Back to the thread: I was wanting both these kits for future fun, but after seeing the work to the chin of the later mark, I have to submit to reason and delete that one from my wants list. I think you have done a truly superb job or correcting the nose but that is beyond my skills (which are waning lately).

I'm glad to get back on to BM and see you are doing well, I wish you continued good health and model success.

Looking forward to the rest of this with brew in hand!

 

Thanks! Actually, adding the carburettor intake to the bottom of the nose was pretty easy. Give it a try - alternately you can just paint a small "smile" below the spinner, and Bob's yer uncle.

 

Now, about that brew - I need a sample please. Just want to hold the mug up against a calibrated light source, and check the colour properties with a spectrophotometer, that's all. 

 

On 11/8/2015 at 13:20, John Laidlaw said:

The EDSG looks very nice to me - very nice indeed. Works well with the DSG as well.

Just out of interest, where did you source the WEM paint?

 

By DSG you mean Dark Slate Grey, as opposed to Dark Sea Grey? That the two colours work well together? I think so, too. The EDSG is certainly darker than what a lot of modellers use, but it looks very close to the restored FR.1 Z2033 at Yeovilton. Now I just need to fix my cock-up, and tighten those edges. The period photos show "soft" edges to the camouflage pattern, but it's a tight edge. Especially the boundary with the underside Sky. I wonder if that should be masked?

 

Where did I get the paints? Hmm, good question! Let me check here....since I'm in the US I can't buy from Sovereign due to Royal Mail restrictions. Ah, here it is - H & B Hobbies in Milton, Massachusetts.

 

http://www.hbhobbies.com/

 

Cheers,

Bill

[John Laidlaw]

Thanks, Col - unfortunately they can't ship economically to the States, and the distributor here (Warship Hobbies) is carrying only Naval colours at the moment .

[John Laidlaw]

By DSG you mean Dark Slate Grey, as opposed to Dark Sea Grey? That the two colours work well together? I think so, too. The EDSG is certainly darker than what a lot of modellers use, but it looks very close to the restored FR.1 Z2033 at Yeovilton. Now I just need to fix my cock-up, and tighten those edges. The period photos show "soft" edges to the camouflage pattern, but it's a tight edge. Especially the boundary with the underside Sky. I wonder if that should be masked?

Where did I get the paints? Hmm, good question! Let me check here....since I'm in the US I can't buy from Sovereign due to Royal Mail restrictions. Ah, here it is - H & B Hobbies in Milton, Massachusetts.

http://www.hbhobbies.com/

Sorry Bill! Yes, Dark Slate Grey .

I'd definitely go for a masked boundary with the Sky.

Many thanks for the link - I shall check them out now.

[Col.]

Thanks, Col - unfortunately they can't ship economically to the States, and the distributor here (Warship Hobbies) is carrying only Naval colours at the moment .

That's a pity James is a nice guy and lives not too far from me - I'll raise the matter with him at next club meeting and see what he says.

[John Laidlaw]

He's a very nice fellow - he was very helpful when I spoke to him just after the re-launch of Colourcoats. Unfortunately, his hands are tied by rules, regulations and costs, and if his distributors want to focus on the Naval stuff, I completely understand. Besides, the link supplied by Bill to H & B Hobbies is a good one, and I should be able to source what I need from them .

I'm just glad that James took on the paints in the first place .

[bigbadbadge]

Wow, these are coming on nicely, Great work Bill. Some lovely photos attached too. Keep up the good work

All the best
Chris