typhoon1 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Hi There I recently came across a picture of a 43 sqn Phantom FG-1 taken in April 1976 at its home base of RAF Leuchars,it had no wing tanks fitted just the sidewinder rails and strangely a centreline suu-23 gun pod,would any phantom experts know if this was a normal fit at this time and was air to air gunnery carried out of the Scottish coast I cannot seem to find any other pictures of this fit taken in the uk. Kind Regards Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Craig those who fitted the things will be along in a minute to give first hand accounts. I had a quick look at Patrick Martin's 2 vol work on the UK Phantoms and he advises that, in general, aircraft on alert in the UK would not carry the SUU-23/A gun pod on the centre line due to needing more fuel for range (they had a 600 gal tank instead) whereas aircraft on alert duties in Germany would have the SUU-23/A pod and not the fuel tank. The UK aircraft were able to take the gun pod though. Hope that assists John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troffa Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 hi Craig, the fit you describe is the standard Armament Practice Camp (APC) fit that I only ever saw on 43(F)'s frequent trips to Cyprus for air to air gunnery against the banners towed by 100 Sqn Canberra's. I have checked Jimmy Beedle's excellent Squadron History and it doesn't mention any UK Based air to air gunnery as taking place in 1976- although this certainly doesn't rule out that it did occur. I will ask on the Association FB page and see if I can get an answer for you. edit: And as John stated, the QRA fit (in my days at least) 1987-1989 was 4x Sidewinder and 4x Sparrow with three tanks. edit: I dont suppose you can share the picture with us? Cheers, Troffa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typhoon1 Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Troffa Here is the shot 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troffa Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Thanks for that- I found this shot of a 111 Sqn Phantom in the same fit- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II_in_UK_service#/media/File:McDonnell_Douglas_F-4K_Phantom_FG1,_UK_-_Air_Force_AN0854112.jpg I have asked the question on the association FB page and hopefully will have an answer soon- I must admit I'm intrigued myself now! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV571 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 It's definitely not a standard mission fit, a Phantom won't be going very far without any tanks . I pulled out my copy of F-4 Phantom - A Pilot's Story by Robert Prest to see if there was any reference to early use of the SUU-23/A pod in the UK by 43 Sqn. He flew on the squadron in the early to mid Seventies and in one chapter he describes a sortie which begins with a simulated air to ground mission (presumably on the Otterburn range) then concludes with an air-to-air gunnery session over Druridge Bay - which is not far away. There are no specific dates in the book but as he was posted back to 228OCU after his 43 Sqn tour, then joined 92 Sqn when it reformed on the FGR2 in 1977, I guess the event was about 1975 when the capability was added to the RAF's FG1s. It would seem that the picture is possibly of a jet on a similar sortie before the Mediterranean APCs became the norm. Hopefully Troffa's former squadron-mates can provide a more definite answer. HTH, Jonathan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Could be an airshow fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troffa Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hi Chaps, bit of a result- Barry Mayner, a Navigator on 43(F) at the time provides this: "On 14 oct75 the first FG1's XV582and 583 were gun capable but no firing trials had been done.We got airborne on a night sortie and landed at Coningsby for guns to be fitted and with full ammunition loads.We got airborne on the late morning of the 15th Oct and using clear range procedures in the wash ata. Fired all rounds in 2 bursts into the sea both worked so back to Leuchars. The picture shows "F" xv582 firing his first burst. Rog Clements and I had fired first. I had grabbed a spare camera from the Q cupboard in the Sqn. for the trip so was able to take the picture.On the 19 Nov 75 we deployed to Malta with 10 aircraft, the guns went on a Hercules and we did the first FG1 APC from Luqa.In June 1976 the Sqn had had a number of new crews in but no APC was on the programme for the year so -- a mini APC was organised operating from Leuchars. 100 Sqn deployed a Canberra Tug and a Banner Party . We operated east of Leuchars with Canberra /Phantom sweeps and ran 2?3 banners per day for 10 days. The TUG takeoffs and banner drops had to be carefully run as we were still holding QRA." Cheers, Troffa 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typhoon1 Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hi Troffa Many thanks for all your help on this I shall be building my kit as it was in June 1976 while on mini APC out of RAF Leuchars. Many thanks to others for your help also . Kind Regards Craig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacktjet Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 hi Craig, the fit you describe is the standard Armament Practice Camp (APC) fit that I only ever saw on 43(F)'s frequent trips to Cyprus for air to air gunnery against the banners towed by 100 Sqn Canberra's. I have checked Jimmy Beedle's excellent Squadron History and it doesn't mention any UK Based air to air gunnery as taking place in 1976- although this certainly doesn't rule out that it did occur. I will ask on the Association FB page and see if I can get an answer for you. edit: And as John stated, the QRA fit (in my days at least) 1987-1989 was 4x Sidewinder and 4x Sparrow with three tanks. edit: I dont suppose you can share the picture with us? Cheers, Troffa I was at Leuchars 1980/81 (Photo section), I went out to Cyprus. for APC in 1980 but I seem to remember that the following year (although I didn't go due to an imminent posting to 2 Sqn), APC was done at Valley, can't remember the reason why - cost saving I think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I was at Binbrook and both the Lightning Sqns did APC from Binbrook in 81 due to runway re-surfacing out in Cyprus. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacktjet Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I was at Binbrook and both the Lightning Sqns did APC from Binbrook in 81 due to runway re-surfacing out in Cyprus. That will be the reason why 43 and 111 didn't go to Cyprus in 81 then. hi Craig, the fit you describe is the standard Armament Practice Camp (APC) fit that I only ever saw on 43(F)'s frequent trips to Cyprus for air to air gunnery against the banners towed by 100 Sqn Canberra's. Or against the Canberra's rudder! Maj. Howser (USM) 43Sqn during APC 1980 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Ah yes, the legendary comment from a Canberra TT pilot to the firer: "I'm towing this target, not ****** pushing it!" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTON Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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