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German Air Force Canberra colour advice needed


Welkin

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I am getting near the painting stage for my Airfix 1:48 Canberra B.2, which I am going to finish as 99+35 as used by the Luftwaffe.

Unfortunately I can't make up my mind which paint is the closest to the Orange that these aircraft were finished in - photos from the interweb vary from red-orange to orange-yellow! Humbrol 18 seems to be too dull, whereas Humbrol 209 looks to be too bright!

99+35.jpg

99+36.jpg

Any advice, suggestions, recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

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I suppose it depends on which period of its life you want to depict - early or late.

Red & Dayglo are notoriously difficult to reproduce - and they fade/weather very badly - so either is perfectly legitimate, depending on the age of the finish.

Ken

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From memory of seeing such a Canberra at Warton, I'd say that the original was between the extremes of the two photos. Memory is of course unreliable, but I'd also pitch towards Humbrol 18. The point about weathering, or rather fading due to exposure, is that it is much more visible on the uppersurfaces than the lower - the lower of the two photos at the top doesn't show this so I think the different colours are due to the film used. As I recall, Kodak film tended to accentuate the red.

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Hi Welkin :) Trying to work out colours from photos can be quite difficult

Hope this shot at Greenham Common '83 is of use - Same aircraft from nearly the same vantage point taken slightly earlier in the day but still late afternoon.

The canberra was definitely a rich orange at that time (compare it against the red cheatline of the canberra behind it) - looks like the colour red may be over saturated in your shot making the orange very dark

canberra_zpssupaorqo.jpg

Edited by Pinback
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Thanks to all for the advice; it's true about the colours in photographs - I have some kodachrome slides from the 1970s which are very red indeed. I am inclining to Humbrol 18, although I might have a gander at the Revell equivalent, as that is tagged as being RAL 2004.

:thanks:

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It's a tough one, I've never seen an official colour reference number for the orange, I used a Humbrol Authentic colour I think called (Napoleonic) British scarlet https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=colour+British+scarlet&es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&imgil=DT3WC9sva21qdM%253A%253BjaZbeXzUOZOSmM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fbasecrafts.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fmodel-colour-scarlet-val817.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=DT3WC9sva21qdM%253A%252CjaZbeXzUOZOSmM%252C_&usg=__qOKU6qj-0gZXxWA1rbkmYRikHH4%3D&ved=0CC4QyjdqFQoTCKng0d-a28YCFegX2wodSd8IMA&ei=Nk-lVantKuiv7AbJvqOAAw#imgrc=DT3WC9sva21qdM%3A&usg=__qOKU6qj-0gZXxWA1rbkmYRikHH4%3D I remember it was a very good match. Unfortunately the colour is long since gone, if I ever revisit the colour I will have to find a redish orange. They were never Day-Glo! You could always go for High Speed Silver.

a.jpg

John

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I'm with John on this one, Humbrol Authentics MC1 'British Scarlet' which some conversion tables give as Hu60 which just is plain wrong!

or MC11 'Orange Facings' which converts to Hu82 'Orange Lining' which could work?

The colour you need is the same colour as that used for the big ol' fuel tank on the Space Shuttle launcher! which paint is recommended for that?

I wouldn't go dayglo, just doesn't work scale models?? same with high gloss finishes (controversial!)?? tone shades down a bit, scale effect and all that??

P1014720.jpg

This colour, okay on a 'British' built and painted helicopter, weren't German Canberra painted in Lancashire??

. . .Kes (who would consult Canberra Kid John in all things Canberra!)

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These Canberras were definitely not dayglo when I saw a couple of examples at shows in the 1980s. They were orange and I would have thought International Orange or a German equivalent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange

Here are two of my images of 99+35, taken two years apart:

5527245365_048e3e09a9_z.jpg99+35 Canberra B.2 by Irish251, on Flickr

15719278538_9a8cfe74fb_z.jpg99+35 Canberra B.2 by Irish251, on Flickr

Edited by Irish 251
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I think that my LHS has Humbrol 82 in stock, so I will pick up a tin and see what it comes out like; I have H18 and H209, so that ought to give me a good comparison.

Thanks to all for your help.

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The Model Alliance sheet for the German Canberra describes it as 'fluorescent day-glo orange/red', which sounds like it is trying to cover every eventuality, but does not give a suggested paint. The Warpaint book describes it, rather unhelpfully, merely as 'orange', which suggests a non-dayglo shade. I would agree that it does not look 'classic' dayglo, and it certainly does not have that faded appearance that happens to dayglo, but if anyone has a copy of English Electric Canberra by Ken Delve/Peter Green/John Clemens (Patrick Stephens 1992) take a look at p.204. The photos there -if indeed it is not dayglo- would suggest the brightest, richest orange possible. It is not International Orange, which has a much more reddish appearance.

I am intending to make the Airfix 1/48 B.2 as one of these aircraft, so I've suddenly become very interested in the debate!

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As we all know trying to derive accurate colours from photos which have been digitized, processed and presented on a computer screen is a fools errand!!

(warton grass green? seriously?)

There are so many variables for colour perception, on any subject such as the one you're modelling, the colour could appear different through out the day, colours would seem altered in bright sunlight when the sun is high or low in the sky, when there's cloud cover, density of the cloud would affect light conditions? Atmospheric conditions, high and low pressure air density and temperature have a bearing on light diffraction and therefore colour perception. What would a colour look like at night or in the dark?! Surface finish, gloss satin or matt and the infinite variety between certainly have an effect on perception, photo degradation or paint fade chroma degradation where colour is altered over time due to environmental conditions, heat, cold and moisture exposure cause variable chemical processes on the paint surface altering colour

I suppose 'science' could be applied, the colour could be analyzed to establish the exact wavelength of the reflected elecromagnetic radiation, then discovering the properties of the light source, then there's the distance and relative positions to the light source to the observer, ambient air temperature and pressure density. Now find and adopt the ratios of the distances temps and pressures to your preferred scale? This done the subject would need to be created considering its time and position in space and prevailing met conditions and ambient light properties etc. if these conditions aren't met precisely, it could be argued it would be 'inaccurate'!!

How about the human eyeball, without going into neurological processes eyesight and visual perception is as individual as we all are?

So, you could get a sample of the exact paint used by the manufacturer, still wouldn't necessarily look right on a scale model, even fulfilling the above criteria?

So best to go with what 'you' think is right and what 'your' are happy with, no one can tell you it's wrong with any certainty, it's their opinion, which you can choose to ignore! Ha!

This is why all my builds are 'whatif's' they maybe close to scale replicas of the real thing but being 'whatif's', they are always 100% accurate everytime! This is my remedy for 'Advanced Modellers Syndrome'! and shield against JMN's rivet counters and habitual pedants! Ha!

. . . Kes (philosophical modeller)

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Have compared 2 colours from the Humbrol Paint colour system book and matched them to RAL2004 the almost perfect match is #18 Gloss Orange.

DSCF2305_zpsnxux5ebc.jpg

DSCF2306_zpsubbwgw0m.jpg

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What make you think it should be RAL2004?

Even so, painted in glossy bright orange would look awful!! (in my opinion obviously) and depending on how its applied too I suppose?

. . .and don't get me started re. colour swatch accuracy! Ha!

. . . Kes (who is ambivalent regarding colours?)

Edited by Kes
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What make you think it should be RAL2004?

Even so, painted in glossy bright orange would look awful!! (in my opinion obviously) and depending on how its applied too I suppose?

. . .and don't get me started re. colour swatch accuracy! Ha!

. . . Kes (who is ambivalent regarding colours?)

Check the early posts they mention RAL 2004, I have just shown for colour matching, I have not said it should or should not be RAL 2004.

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re grass: well yes, somewhat serious at least. One way of checking the likely accuracy of a colour reproduction is to judge how the other features included in the photo appear. Normally this would be flesh, uniforms, and such like. Not having any of these present, I have to say that the strongly blue-green tint of the foreground grass in the upper photo just looks wrong, based on 34 years of walking past that particular patch of grass, but with the usual qualifier on memory. However, there are other signs in the upper photo - the red in the German fin flash and the ejection triangle also appear too dark.

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re grass: well yes, somewhat serious at least. One way of checking the likely accuracy of a colour reproduction is to judge how the other features included in the photo appear. Normally this would be flesh, uniforms, and such like. Not having any of these present, I have to say that the strongly blue-green tint of the foreground grass in the upper photo just looks wrong, based on 34 years of walking past that particular patch of grass, but with the usual qualifier on memory. However, there are other signs in the upper photo - the red in the German fin flash and the ejection triangle also appear too dark.

'likely accuracy of a colour reproduction' ? What? ,

I refer you to my earlier post, re. colour matching from computer screens

. . . Kes

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Check the early posts they mention RAL 2004, I have just shown for colour matching, I have not said it should or should not be RAL 2004.

I'm confused, did you just post to confirm something already established anyway?

. . . Kes (who doesn't really understand what RAL is all about?)

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