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No. 64 Squadron's first Spitfires: any pics/references?


lasermonkey

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Hi, probably a bit of a long shot, as No. 64 squadron's Spitfires would appear to have been particularly camera-shy in 1940, but does anyone know of any pictures of 64's Mk Is in the May/June period?

I have only seen a couple of pictures of K9964/SH*W (which I have already done and is after this time frame) and a very short clip of No. 64 scrambling (often shown in programmes about the BoB).

My early Spitfire collection is represented by plenty of examples from other squadrons in all the major codes/markings variations, but with just a solitary effort for No. 64.

Any help or pointers in the right direction very gratefully received!

Thanks in advance,

Mark.

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After trying a few different ideas, such as No.64's loss records, I have some serial numbers: K9813, K9832, K9906 and L1052, which were lost between 29th and 31st May 1940.

Frustratingly, pictures exist of K9906 when it belonged to No.65 Squadron (and flown by Tuck, no less!), but I have had no luck marrying individual aircraft codes with serial numbers.

I shall continue searching. My best hope is that I might get a code letter from which I can then extrapolate an educated guess as to what the aircraft looked like.

Incidentally, does anyone know of any pictures of No. 64's Blenheims?

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited by lasermonkey
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  • 3 weeks later...

I know this may seem slightly strange, with me appearing to be talking with myself, but I'm slowly getting some useful info, but alas, no individual code letters thus far*.

The serials I have for No. 64 Squadron Spitfires in the "night/white" undersides timeframe are:

K9795. ex-19 Squadron, with photos extant in No. 19's service. With No.64 between 18/04/40-13/07/40. A scheme.

K9805. ex-66 Squadron (coded RB@R). With No. 64 between 19/04/40-23/11/40. A scheme.

K9813. ex-66 and 41 Sqns. With No. 64 between 11/08/39-31/05/40 when it was lost in combat.

K9832. ex-41 Sqn. With No. 64 between 09/03/40-29/05/40 when it was lost in combat.

K9840. ex-41 Sqn. With No. 64 between 02/05/40-26/05/40

K9844. ex-41 Sqn. With No. 64 between 11/03/40-25/03/40 when it was lost in an accident.

K9847. ex-41 Sqn. With No. 64 between 11/03.40-04/05/40.

K9906. ex-65 Sqn (FZ@L and YT@T). With No.64 between 17/04/40-23/05/40. A scheme.

K9991. ex-41 Sqn. With No. 64 between 17/04/40-05/08/40 when it was shot down and subsequently repaired.

L1033. ex-611 Sqn (FY@K) . With No 64 between 19/03/40-19/05/40 when it crashed during a night landing. B scheme.

L1035. ex-611 Sqn. With No. 64 between 19/03/40-25/07/40 when it was lost in combat. A painting by Ivan Berryman (The Longest July) shows L1035 coded SH@N and wearing the A scheme.

L1037. ex-611 Sqn. With No. 64 between 29/02/40-27/07/40.

L1038. ex-611 Sqn (FY@P). With No. 64 between 29/02/40-16/08/40 when it was force-landed after combat.

L1039. ex-611 Sqn. With No. 64 between 29/02/30-08/08/40 when it was lost in combat.

L1052. ex-611 Sqn. With No. 64 between 17/04/40-29/05/40 when it was lost in combat.

L1053. ex-611 sqn. With No. 64 between 19/03/40-01/06/40 when it was lost in combat.

L1073. ex-41 Sqn. With No. 64 between 02/05/40-21/05/40 or 21/09/40, depending on who you believe!

N3230. With No. 64 between 13/05/40-15/08/40 when it was damaged and subsequently repaired.

N3272. With No. 64 between 13/05/40-29/05/40 when it was lost in combat.

N3273. With No. 64 between 13/05/40-02/07/40

N3293. ex-222 Sqn. With No. 64 between 17/04/40-28/10/40 when it was damaged and subsequently repaired.

P9398. With No. 64 between 18/05/40-26/05/40. Transferred to No. 54 Sqn coded KL@B and flown by Al Deere. A scheme.

P9399. With No. 64 between 18/05/40-26/05/40. Transferred to No. 74 Sqn.

P9421. With No. 64 between 18/05/40-25/07/40 when it was lost in combat.

P9447. With No. 64 between 02/06/40-17/09/40. Transferred to No. 41 Sqn.

P9449. With No. 64 between 02/06/40-05/07/40 when it was lost in combat.

P9450. With N0. 64 between 02/06/40-05/12/40 when it was lost in combat. Good photos of P9450 pre-delivery exist. A scheme.

So, one possible individual aircraft letter*, provided Mr Berryman is right, and that the aeroplane in question wasn't re-coded at any point.

It is extremely frustrating that no photographs of No. 64's Spitfires, whilst in their charge, and in the pre-Sky undersides era, have turned up so far. I did find a Pathe newsreel of No. 64 at Kenley and managed to get a good many stills from it. At least I can get another BoB era 64 Sqn Spit (with 49" A1 fuselage roundels!) from it......

Hopefully I haven't bored you all to tears and with any luck, maybe some new info will come to light!

Cheers,

Mark.

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At the risk of making this thread look even more bizarre......

Assuming Mr Berryman is correct, and that L1035 was coded SH@L, using the Scale Aircraft Modelling Nov '82 Spitfire Camouflage article, in conjunction with stills from the Pathe Kenley newsreel, I think the aeroplane would appear as follows:

Camouflage in the B Scheme, as it appears to be in the A=even/B=odd range.

Undersides of wings night/white with fuselage and tailplane in silver.

Fuselage roundels initially 25" A type, modified to 35" A1 for Dunkirk.

Upper wing roundels 31.2" B type.

Underwing roundels not carried until Dunkirk operations, when 50" type A were applied.

No fuselage serial number applied, with 4" serial painted on fin.

Fin flash (3x8" stripes) applied for Dunkirk operations.

Squadron codes aft of roundels on both sides. The newsreel appears to show the squadron codes being slightly taller than the individual aircraft codes.

Voltage regulator not visible on rear of seat frame.

Mast type aerial.

If I have missed anything or got something horrendously wrong, please feel free to chime in!

Otherwise, I shall go ahead with what I think is the most likely appearance of this aeroplane, in the absence of any photos.

Cheers,

Mark.

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Thanks! I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say there were any sound conclusions, maybe just a "most likely" appearance for L1035. In the absence of any photographs, I fear it's the best I'll get. Frustratingly, there is a picture, taken in the pertinent timeframe, captioned something like "64 Squadron Spitfires scramble" which completely fails to show any code letters! Maybe other photographs were taken at the time and may surface somewhere.....

This link http://www.britishpathe.com/video/spitfires-kenley-fighter-station shows some reasonable pictures (you can view as stills too) of No 64 Squadron (and a few glimpses of No 615's Hurricanes) at Kenley in the June-August period, as evidenced by the Sky undersides and no underwing roundels.

Interestingly, some of the roundels appear crudely painted and there's a brief appearance of an un-coded Spitfire landing with what appears to be a gas detection patch on the upper, rear fuselage.

I have downloaded as many of the stills as I thought were useful and as they don't really appear together as such on the Pathe page (they load one at a time) I decided to put them in a folder on my Photobucket album, which can be viewed here: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lasermonkey/library/Wartime%20Spitfire%20pics/No%2064%20Sqn?sort=3&page=1

I'm reluctant to post any of the pictures here, as I really don't want to get Britmodeller into any trouble regarding any copyright issues. Hopefully the link will suffice, although I'll happily remove that if it's not appropriate.

I will most certainly be modelling SH@S when I get my next Spitfire. That 49" roundel on a 64 Sqn machine clinches it!

Cheers,

Mark.

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K9805 would presumably have been coded LZ-R as 66 Squadron gave up RB as its unit marking in Sept 1939?

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 10 months later...

Hi Mark

Found this thread looking for more info on the Kenley Spitfires. I have been trying to see if the Mk1a ever flew from Kenley - and also been trying to match up different references including what squadrons where at Kenley during the early part of WW2, then which of them were flying the 1A. All for a 1/72 Airfix kit :-)

anthony

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Anthony,

Spit I squadrons at Kenley: (Hurricane squadrons are also based there)

64 May to August- then to Leconfield, trading places with:

616 August into September- to Coltishall, trading places with:

66 September, briefly, then moving on to Gravesend

the next Spitfires to be based at Kenley are probably Mk.IIas in June '41. [Edit: with Vb following in August.]

bob

Edited by gingerbob
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Anthony,

Spit I squadrons at Kenley: (Hurricane squadrons are also based there)

64 May to August- then to Leconfield, trading places with:

616 August into September- to Coltishall, trading places with:

66 September, briefly, then moving on to Gravesend

the next Spitfires to be based at Kenley are probably Mk.IIas in June '41.

bob

Many thanks Bob. Not wanting to hijack this thread, but could I build the Mk1A kit as a Mk 1. I believe the difference is the guns only(?)

regards

anthony

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I think the term "Ia" was retroactively applied to the Mk I to distinguish it from the cannon armed Mk Ib, which, I have recently read, was also a retroactive term!

For the Battle of Britain era, you can basically build the Airfix kit as it is. The odd, early airframe might have had the old "pole" type antenna, such as K9964/SH@W.

Cheers,

Mark.

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Mark

A couple of other items to watch out for on early Spitfire I's, depending on the date:

Canopy - flat sides and top, or 'bubble' top with flat sides

Windscreen - armoured or unarmoured

Pitot - two prong, or later single prong

Prop - two or three blade

Fin - anti-snare bar

Gun sight - cross and bead, or reflector

As you have picked up, voltage regulator seems to have been mounted lower in cockpit

Hydraulic reservoir mounted behind seat on starboard side, and early undercarriage retraction was by pump mechanism, depending on how detailed you want to be :)

Cheers

Peter Roberts

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Amazing thread and I learned alot reding this without any own info to add.

Reading the Spitfire History book you talked about all things I think of in regard to early Mk.1 individuals.

Oh one more thing, did theese earliest Mk.1 have the glass windows and landing light built into the underside of the wings which was later deleted in all later production? There is drawing and article mentioning this if interrested.

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I've just looked at my entire library and not found one of 64 Sqn! I would say that while I've been in France on the odd occasion I've had a quick thumb through their military publications and note that they have magazines of far greater photographic quality, content and interest than anything for sale in the UK. I do remember one celebrating the battle of Britain and it was crammed with good quality pictures that I had never seen before.

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Battle of Britain?

I agree with you Graham, but the OP was talking about May/June 1940 and early production Spitfires.

Not sure where Battle of Britain fits with this?

PR

Edited by Peter Roberts
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OK Peter, they're the two months immediately before the BoB officially begins. This time is still considerably later than the first production batch with all the early build standard details. I believe that the flash extenders on the outer guns had also been removed by this time.

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64 Squadron did receive second-hand Spits at end Feb/Mar '40, so some at least could have had some "old" features. These were ex 611 Sqn, and these particular aircraft were built in late June '39 into July. Some ex 41 Sqn, also, which had been built in '38 or Jan '39.

616 Sqn had had their Spits since Nov '39, and they were second-hand then, but I'd have to look at the individuals to see if any old ones were still with the squadron in summer '40.

66 Sqn (who had given some of their first batch to 616, as above) got a second batch of new aircraft in Sept-Nov '39.

bob

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Thanks! I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say there were any sound conclusions, maybe just a "most likely" appearance for L1035. In the absence of any photographs, I fear it's the best I'll get. Frustratingly, there is a picture, taken in the pertinent timeframe, captioned something like "64 Squadron Spitfires scramble" which completely fails to show any code letters! Maybe other photographs were taken at the time and may surface somewhere.....

This link http://www.britishpathe.com/video/spitfires-kenley-fighter-station shows some reasonable pictures (you can view as stills too) of No 64 Squadron (and a few glimpses of No 615's Hurricanes) at Kenley in the June-August period, as evidenced by the Sky undersides and no underwing roundels.

Interestingly, some of the roundels appear crudely painted and there's a brief appearance of an un-coded Spitfire landing with what appears to be a gas detection patch on the upper, rear fuselage.

I have downloaded as many of the stills as I thought were useful and as they don't really appear together as such on the Pathe page (they load one at a time) I decided to put them in a folder on my Photobucket album, which can be viewed here: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lasermonkey/library/Wartime%20Spitfire%20pics/No%2064%20Sqn?sort=3&page=1

I'm reluctant to post any of the pictures here, as I really don't want to get Britmodeller into any trouble regarding any copyright issues. Hopefully the link will suffice, although I'll happily remove that if it's not appropriate.

I will most certainly be modelling SH@S when I get my next Spitfire. That 49" roundel on a 64 Sqn machine clinches it!

Cheers,

Mark.

I have seen artwork of L1035 with the codes SH*D. This particular aircraft interests me as it was the regular mount of S/Lt Paul who scored 7 victories with 64 Sqn between 1st July and 27th July when he died having been shot into the Channel on 25th. During my research I did not find any photographs of the aeroplane nor did I find any documentation to confirm any individual letter. In the end I did my model in the standard fighter scheme of the time..

March%202016%20123_zpsleefmbqw.jpg

March%202016%20128_zps15y89gxz.jpg

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My research threw up a painting by Berryman, depicting L1035 as SH@N, but with nothing to support that. I do sometimes wonder what the artists and profile artists know that we don't, or whether they go with a best guess! Frustrating doesn't even begin to describe it.

What is interesting is that on every photo or newsreel I have seen of No. 64 Sqn's Spit Mk Is is that the squadron codes are aft of the roundel in both sides, possibly as a throwback to their brief time on Blenheims, as the squadron codes wouldn't fit ahead of the roundel. I've even seen this carried through to some Mk Vs. I think that No. 234 Sqn did the same.

Cheers,

Mark.

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Here's a few pics which show No. 64's Mk Is and their squadron code placement on the port side:

spitfire164sqn1940_zpsf838f261.jpg

64%20sqn%20shd1_zpsjnm27oqb.jpg

images-41.britishpathe_zpsvwsriym2.jpg

images-68.britishpathe_zpsi734y1e4.jpg

images-5.britishpathe_zpsdgzeqiqv.jpg

Note the crudely-painted, paler (?) roundel and serial overpaint on SH@Q and the black wheel hub and extensive wing staining on SH@D.

And here's a snippet of the painting I mentioned previously. Note that the artist has depicted L1035 in the A scheme, when my references state it should have been in the B scheme.

l1035_zpsstdx2zkh.jpg

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited by lasermonkey
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