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Westland P.V.6 Houston Everest Expedition marking

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Pin    2,237

Hello,

I'm thinking about building a lovely Frog kit found in vaults.

Is there an edivence that P.V.6 wore roundels and fin flash during the expedition?

Frog box artwork depicts it without ones, but decals and instruction suggest that they were in place (I don't have an original box, decals or instruction - plastic only, original FROG, not NOVO)

8122679923_d57e29cfb8_h.jpg

Frog_Wallace_700.jpg

NOVO box picture is with roundels

Novo%20F167%20Wallace%20MP.JPG

There is one well known photo of G-ACBR with fin flash

4-3.jpg

but it is not clear to me that it was taken during the expedition

Expedition photos such as

everest3.jpg

IMG_3446-1.jpg

Clydesdale_Everest1933.mr.jpg

5-3.jpg

wp115f4072_05_06.jpg

do not give a definite answer

G-ACAZ was definitely without roundels or fin flash, but it does not mean that G-ACBR was in the same colour scheme

I know that there was a documentary - "Wings over Everest" shot during the expedition but I could not find it online

Any help is appreciated

Edited by Pin

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John Aero    1,196

The Novo box art is wrong in that it shows a gun ring fitted. There is a photo of CBR with rudder stripes but no roundels on the fuselage in addition to the one you have shown. A photo of CBR over the Himalaya's does not have rudder stripes.. I suggest as this was not an RAF expedition but a privately funded one, roundels would not have been carried for diplomatic reasons. There are few photos in contemporary Flights or Aeroplanes.

John

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provencenut    9

Hello,

The G-ACBR made the Everest sortie without the roundels and fin flash. It was converted from the original P.V.6 prototype to take part in the 1933 Houston Everest Expedition, along with another converted P.V.3 Wallace, G-ACAZ. First over the Everest was G-ACAZ, sponsored by Lady Houston . G-ACBR was sponsored by the British Air Ministry

G-ACBR started life as "P6" and was later serialled K23488 and given RAF roundels and rudder stripes. In this form it was the prototype Wallace I. In 1933 it was re-engined, rear cockpit enclosed and cabin heating and oxygen equipment installed. As G-ACBR it was then used for the Houston-Mount Everest Expedition. RAF markings were not used on the Everest flight. Afterwards it went back to Westlands for improvements and was finally designated as the Westland Wallace II and went into service with the RAF.

g-acbr_westland_wallace_houston_everest_

FlightoverEverest_250428a.jpg

Regards,

Mika

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Graham Boak    2,380

Carrying simultaneous civil and military markings is, I understand, illegal under international treaty. I'm aware that this was fairly common with basic trainers around the start of WW2, but that was purely for convenience: it was temporary (if fairly long term) and wouldn't be carried internationally. It is however interesting to see the view with the rudder stripes (not a fin flash in those days) and that Frog provides roundels for the underside - which isn't shown in the photographs here.

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Pin    2,237

Thanks for your input gents.

More questions

This picture

g-acbr_westland_wallace_houston_everest_

shows some stenciling on the rudder and right below "R" registration letter. What could it be?

This is the tail of Wallace from RAF museum - the stenciling is looking pretty similar to me

Wallace_Tail_6.jpg

but there are no hints about fuselage stencils.

There is a round expedition logo under stabilizer, does anybody know it looks like?

I could only find a post stamp but I'm not sure that it depicts the same logo

7508.jpg

Thanks in advance :)

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Aeronut    699

Carrying simultaneous civil and military markings is, I understand, illegal under international treaty. I'm aware that this was fairly common with basic trainers around the start of WW2, but that was purely for convenience: it was temporary (if fairly long term) and wouldn't be carried internationally. It is however interesting to see the view with the rudder stripes (not a fin flash in those days) and that Frog provides roundels for the underside - which isn't shown in the photographs here.

Is it? Todays RAF seem to be quite happy for their Tutors to fly around with a combination of civil registrations and roundels.

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Graham Boak    2,380

The answer may be that they don't go international so it doesn't matter. Historically, Hawker's demonstrators (Hunter, Harrier) didn't carry mixed markings, and entire blocks of serials were allocated to civil aircraft when employed on trooping contacts in the late 40s and early 50s. There is still a strong differentiation between military and civil aircraft when it comes to international travel, passage rights etc. Plus the entire series of Class B markings (eg G-8-1 etc...) for military aircraft in civil hands.

Given that the Wallace/PV-6 concerned didn't fly outside the British Empire, perhaps it didn't matter in that case either, but I suspect they were generally rather more concerned about such details then.

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alancmlaird    624

It was my understanding that the expedition aircraft had to be 'civil' as the countries to be overflown would not allow foreign military aircraft. I can't find the info just now, but the flight was actually unauthorised as the timeframe specified had expired due to bad weather. They went ahead anyway! Nepal was never part of the British Empire, and though friendly, guarded its Independence assiduously.

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Pin    2,237

 Thanks for the opinion, the things are kind of settled :)

The biggest miss is a window on the floor of the observer cabin that is clearly visible on this video. Shame I haven't seen it before the model was complete - it become publicly available later

 

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alancmlaird    624

Great collection of references you provided us with there - didn't notice the 2015 completion date!  I've got a couple of these kits in-stash too, though they are original Frog ones and the decals are completely yellowed, and would fancy building both subjects.

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Orso    430

Looking at pictures of them and the original Frog you can see that there are some difference. The registration letters look different and there ar more decals on the new sheet.

Beside from the included paint masks the big improvement is that they are not yellowed :)

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provencenut    9

 

4 hours ago, Pin said:

 

These decals are just laser printed copies of original Frog ones

 

Hi Alexey,

 

No, they are not copies of original Frog decals (which were badly wrong). I have drawn and made them using all the existing reference material (I have plenty of that material). The black parts are laser printed and the rest UV-ink printed.

Mika

Arctic Decals

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nuuumannn    224
On ‎1‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 8:53 AM, provencenut said:

along with another converted P.V.3 Wallace, G-ACAZ.

 

The Westland PV.3 was not a converted Wallace at all; it was a new aeroplane built as a private venture torpedo bomber.

 

There is a considerable amount of information about the Everest expedition and the aircraft at East Fortune in Scotland, since both the main pilots were Scottish, the then Duke of Hamilton and David Fowler MacIntyre. I once went to a visual presentation given by the current Duke's younger brother at Lennoxlove House, the Hamilton country home in East Lothian, open to the public. He showed the film and gave specific details about the exhibition; very interesting.

 

It might be worth contacting the East Fortune museum for details as there have been guys working on verifying the aeroplanes' colour schemes who have been in contact there.

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JWM    5,641
On 1.12.2016 at 0:06 AM, Pin said:

The biggest miss is a window on the floor of the observer cabin that is clearly visible on this video. Shame I haven't seen it before the model was complete - it become publicly available later

Do not worry - I think that this window is in PV3 machine. Noneless some similarities between them, the PV3 and PV6 has completly different undercaridge, And undercarige is seen together with window. Moreover - In 17 minutes (some 40 seconds) of the film you may see even the window and the registration of a/c :) 

Cheers

J-W

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JWM    5,641

Here is photo pf PV3 with nice view on window:

5-5.jpg

and second one

4-2.jpg

Cheers

J-W

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Moa    3
Posted (edited)

Hi all

I ordered these decals from Mika Jernfors for my models.

It was a fun but laborious build of the two planes involved:

G-ACAZ:

http://wingsofintent.blogspot.com/2017/02/172nd-houston-westland-g-acaz-everest.html

G-ACBR:

http://wingsofintent.blogspot.com/2017/02/172-nd-westland-wallace-g-acbr-everest.html

Cheers

 

Edited by Moa
correction to a more accurate description

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John Aero    1,196

Only recently I was allowed to examine the Everest pilots heated goggles in their polished wooden, brass labelled presentation box.  I have had excellent access to measure the surviving Wallace as I'm working on a series of drawings for the Wallace and Wapiti of which previous drawings for both types are inaccurate. It shouldn't be a surprise to find a belly window in the PV.3 as it was designed as a military aircraft. The PV.6 had quite a few identities and guises before it became the Wallace 1 and later the prototype Wallace II.  The small low side windows were simply to give some natural light for the prone position.

 

John

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