P-400 BW151 in Guadalcanal - Markings Question

[mhaselden]

I have a Hasegawa 1/48 P-400 in the stash and I'd like to complete it in the interesting markings applied to ex-contract RAF machines deployed to Guadalcanal in 1942. I'm particularly interested in BW151 "Hell's Bell" but wonder if it ever wore its full regalia (sharkmouth, boxing rooster and "Hell's Bell" name) while also sporting red centres for the national markings. I've scoured t'interweb for images but can't find many, and none showing this airframe in its entirety. The closest I could find was this pic which, frustratingly, has the national marking obscured (anyone have a person eraser handy?).

I'm guessing the presence of the red centres to the national markings will depend on when the aircraft arrived in Guadalcanal and started operations. I believe May 1942 was supposed to be the changeover from red dots to no red dots but, obviously, it would have taken some time for the order to be promulgated and implemented.

Any ideas on this one?

Many thanks,
Mark

[jimmaas]

By the time the 67th got to Guadalcanal, red dots would have been strongly frowned on. Too much like hinomarus. Other aircraft from the same period are uniformly dotless. Nice catch on the correct name, though. Most still think Bell is plural (which ruins the reference to the manufacturer).

[Ed Russell]

http://www.ghspaulding.com/HELL%27S%20BELLS.JPG

will work better to see the pic

[mhaselden]

Jim,

There's some evidence that at least some P-400s (and also some P-39s) had red dots upon arrival at Guadalcanal. Here's one example below but there are others. I was wondering when they were painted out (ie before or after the application of the sharkmouth and other markings on "Hell's Bell"). The garish side of me wants the dot to have been present with the other markings but my logical head is trying to tell me that the dots would be overpainted before operations commenced for real.

Ed,

Thanks for correcting my broken link. Must do better at that in the future!

Cheers Gents,
Mark

[e8n2]

The invasion of Guadalcanal did not take place until August of 1942, and the island was considered secured in February of 1943. I'm not sure when the AAF would have moved into the island, but I would think it would have been closer to February than August. If any of them arrived with the red circle still in place, I am sure they would have been painted out before being allowed to go out on ops.

Later,

Dave

[gingerbob]

You could always have the red slightly "bleeding through" the white overpaint, for a bit of interest?

[Nick Millman]

Jim,

There's some evidence that at least some P-400s (and also some P-39s) had red dots upon arrival at Guadalcanal. Here's one example below but there are others.

Cheers Gents,

Mark

That colour photo was taken on New Caledonia when the aircraft were being assembled and prepared for operations (without the benefit of manuals). Red centres were supposed to be removed per BuAer order 06230 of May 15 1942 but there is a photograph of the 67th's 'Patsy' flight (sharkmouths) on Henderson Field, Guadalcanal where either the red centre of the fuselage star has not been removed yet or it has been painted out but is still very visible, perhaps due to poor coverage or wear.

Frustratingly many photos of 67th FG P-400s are taken from angles at which the wing obscures the fuselage star or are partial with the star out of view or in deep shadow.

There is a photo of BW 117 (not a 67th FG Cobra) at the AWM which shows the red centre of the underwing star grinning through which could perhaps be taken as 'typical':-

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P03338.001/

Nick

[mhaselden]

Thanks for the pic of BW117, Nick. A slightly higher-res version is also available here. Interesting that it still wears the RAF fin flash.

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for that better image. I'm not sure whether that is the original RAF flash or a newly applied RAAF one.

Of course I should have referred to 67th PS or FS rather than FG above! The flights were designated according to the satellite fields they first operated from on New Caledonia. The Squadron HQ was at Tontouta and the four (eventual) satellite fields were 'Patsy', 'Shoe-Box', 'Dust-Bowl' and Dumbea or 'Paradise'. The Dumbea flight added the image of a pair of dice on a blue background to the fins of its aircraft ('pair o'dice = 'Paradise') and the 'Dust-Bowl' flight painted red spinners. Patsy got the sharkmouths. The various aircraft names were added about the same time. All aircraft got the fighting cockerel on the doors.

The 67th's first contingent flew 5 Cobras to Guadalcanal on 21 and 22 August in two stages (325 and 640 miles) via Efate and Espiritu Santo with two B-17s providing a navigational guide. Two of them were in action on 24 August when Cap Brannon and Lt Fincher scrambled to intercept a Japanese bombing raid. They claimed a strafing Zero. 8 more Cobras led by Cap John "Tommy" Thompson arrived on 27 August. Lt Zed Fountain's # 6 (BW 167) is the one in the photo mentioned in comment # 7 above, with the red centre still visible, supposedly taken on that day. Looking at better prints it seems overpainted.

By that time it seems more likely that the red centres had been overpainted but probably still visible. The Rust album states that the red centres were gone "by the end of the year". I've found two more photos in Wolf's 13th Fighter Command. Patsy flight 'Whistlin' Britches' no red centre visible on underwing stars and Patsy flight # 22 no red centre visible on fuselage star. FWIW the cover art shows BW 167 with the red centre of the fuselage star overpainted but still visible.

Because of the oxygen difficulties limiting their altitude the 67th gradually evolved their Guadalcanal ops into very effective close support, ground and maritime attack sorties with 500lb bombs, being nicknamed the "Jagstaffel" (sic). They did good work in this role which has been somewhat overshadowed by the P-39/400 air-to-air reputation.

Nick

[mhaselden]

Thanks Nick, those are interesting details. I must try to find a decent history of the 67th (if one exists).

Agree the fin flash could be RAAF which, given the AWM link, might suggest the photo you posted was taken in Oz prior to the aircraft deploying to New Caledonia. It's unfortunate there are so few decent photos of this interesting birds.

Cheers,
Mark

[Nick Millman]

'Guadalcanal The Island of Fire - Reflections of the 347th Fighter Group' by Robert Lawrence Ferguson (Aero Tab 1987). Despite the title it is all about the 67th and very good on their early ops especially the saga of getting the P-400s into combat - amazing feats of improvisation and make do.

http://www.amazon.com/Guadalcanal-Island-Robert-Lawrence-Ferguson/dp/0887393381

Quite hard to find but I have two copies if you are interested! I did try to sell one once but there were no takers.

Nick

[Denford]

Not too much off thread I hope, but I read somewhere that a P-400 was referred to as a P-40 with a Zero on its tail.

[Nick Millman]

"Hiding" in plain sight in Lt Col R L Ferguson's book, his diary entry for 10 October 1942:-

"The wing insignia on our planes is a blue circle with a white star in it and a red circle in the middle of the white star, but no more. Some time ago the Marine pilots told us that anything with a red ball gets shot at; it even happened in one air engagement. Now the red circle is painted out and the star is all white."

So it appears that the 67th arrived on Guadalcanal ignorant of the BuAer order with red centres to the stars and these remained until approx the beginning of October 1942

Nick

[sroubos]

Are there any decal sets available in 1/72nd scale for these P-400s?

[Nick Millman]

There ought to be! They had some great names - 'Whistling Britches', 'Resurrection', 'Hell's Bell', 'Eager Eagle', 'Southern Belle', 'Flying Pole', 'Corkey', 'Cicero Kid' and 'L'il Joe' as well as that wonderful squadron insignia of the fighting cockerel squaring up in boxing gloves and then the shark mouths.

'Resurrection' was # 13 a hybrid P-400/P-39 re-built after a wheels up landing. One wing and some fuselage panels were in the RAF scheme and the rest OD. The propeller was re-constructed and the blades balanced in 'field conditions' using drilled holes and lead. The pilot who landed it said he hadn't heard the radio warnings that his wheels were still up because the noise of the warning horn was too loud! That aircraft apparently led a charmed life thereafter, surviving even a shelling from Japanese battleships that destroyed others and several times near misses, bombs and shells, were duds.

Nick

[mhaselden]

Agreed...decals in 1/72 and 1/48 for a range of 67th birds would be good to see.

[Antoine]

About 1/48, Eduard just released Guadalcanal Cobras Limited Edition two-kit combo.

And three years ago, there was also the much interesting P-39 over New Guinea.

P-39 (-400) is definitely my prefered "P", just in front of P-40 and P-38.

Thanks for thoses informations.

[PFlint]

... you forgot "Impatient Virgin" 

[Jure Miljevic]

It does not seem all P-400s carried names or game cock squadron badge, at least not all of the time. It is not too difficult to make national markings with a ghost of a red dot still there, shark mouth and serial. Apart from white six, for which one needs to search spare decals folder, markings for BW167 would be a perfect home project. Cheers

Jure

[Bary881]

I've started working on a P-400 model, and been digging around to try and find the British serial numbers and the squadron aircraft numbers (e.g. BW167 #6), and names, for those planes that were flying at Guadalcanal on 14 Sept 1942 or at least identify those at Guadalcanal and their ultimate disposition (date of loss or condemnation). 

 

Also trying to figure out which were the nine planes with the shark mouth.  I have identified six with shark mouths from photos: BW146 #20 "Whistlin' Britches", #22 (possible BW155), BW156 #12 "Fancy Nancy", BW166 #17 "Impatient Virgin", and BW167 #6 no name known, and a #32 (no other info known).  And I'm even trying to determine spinner colors; white ones are obvious on BW156, BW166, and BW167, but definitely a darker color on BW146 and #22 (the possible BW155).  One reference said they had white, red and blue spinners for different flights.  Another said the spinners were white or olive drab, but I have one B&W photo that shows #32 with a spinner color which seems to match the red gums of the shark mouth.

 

I found a photo of part of a wreck found attributed to BW157 which still has the red center dot in the insignia.  As noted from the Ferguson "Island of Fire" book, 67th apparently were not aware of the policy to delete the red dot until Oct. 1942, and who knows when they implemented it.  I also noted that "Fancy Nancy" BW156 #12 was wrecked on the ground by Japanese strafing 11 Sept. 1942.

Thank you for any assistance,

Doug B.

[Yankee Air Pirate]

This is off topic a bit, but will people PLEASE stop referring to "BuAer" orders or "Bu Numbers" for US Army/Air Force  aircraft. BuAer stands for Bureau of Aeronautics, responsible for Navy/Marine/Coast Guard aviation.  Bureau Numbers were assigned in blocks to production a/c.  Army a/c carried Serial Numbers, based on the Fiscal Year during which the aircraft was ordered. followed by a sequential number 1  from  to whatever number equaled the last a/c ordered. This was displayed in a data block near the cockpit (usually), in black or red (usually).   The last digit of the fiscal year was combined with the sequential number to create a Radio Call Number,  which was to be painted in Identification Yellow on both sides of the vertical fin and rudder, thus, for example, P-38G 43-2264 would have carried 32264 on the outer side of each fin.  It's stateside radio id would have been "Army 32264".  I know this is trivial, but it hits me like the proverbial fingers on a chalkboard. End of rant.

[fubar57]

?

[Dana Bell]

Hi Yankee Air Pirate,

 

It's hard for folks to respond to corrections on five-year-old posts, but in this case Nick was right anyway.  The order he was quoting was a Navy order; there were similar orders from the War Department at the same time, and the Southwest Pacific Area had begun removing the red centers in February 1942.  (It took some months for the Washington to catch up.)

 

But Guadalcanal was in the South Pacific - a Navy theater - with AAF aircraft detached from the Seventh Air Force in Hawaii to fight under Navy control in the SoPac.  The Army squadrons were at a severe disadvantage compared to their Navy and Marine counterparts (which weren't exactly having things easy) and Navy commanders tended to be a full rank higher than their AAF counterparts.  The situation became untenable, so the AAF eventually formed the Thirteenth Air Force and promoted most of its SoPac higher-level commanders.  Parity helped, but it still wasn't seniority.

 

So while I agree with you that BuNos are not interchangeable with Radio Call Numbers, and the BuAer paperwork usually doesn't pertain to AAF actions, in this five-year-old case Nick was justified in his quotation.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Edited May 3, 2020 by Dana Bell

[gingerbob]

Anyway, everyone knows that they're Werknummern and Bort numbers.

[Yankee Air Pirate]

I honestly did not look at the date on Nick's post, and I will defer to Dana's legendary expertise. I noticed the thread because of Bary 881's post . I am about to start on a pair of New Guinea based P-400s, so the topic caught my eye. My comment was general, as I have often seen "BuNo" used for serial number on this and other forums.  I apologize  if I insulted anybody, it was not my intention.  As I said, it's just one of those things makes me cringe, so I "said" something.