McDonnell Douglas F-4S Phantom II VMFA-321 "Hell's Angels"

[Navy Bird]

Hi mates,

 

Here's my plan, as of today anyway. (Somehow, though, my plans can take abrupt turns unexpectedly.) This is the 1:72 Hasegawa F-4J/S Phantom II kit, and this boxing features the colourful scheme worn by the CAG bird of VMFA-321 at the very end of its service. VMFA-321 call themselves "Hell's Angels" and the scheme is appropriately adorned with pitchforks, and a lovely little lady with wings (she's on the intake splitters). The Spook himself is also present, both standing (on the port side) and sitting (on the US insignia on the starboard side). Here's the box:

 

 

And the plastic:

 

 

 

And the clear parts, decals, and instructions:

 

 

As is typical with Hasegawa "special scheme" kits, the instructions are actually for a different boxing, and a separate sheet has been added for the placement of the VMFA-321 decals. Hasegawa give you an option of using the large blue decals for the tail and spine, or for painting it on, in which case the stars and other markings are placed individually. I vote for the latter.

 

I bought this kit for $20 at a contest, which was a great price since it included the Verlinden detail set with lots of PE and resin:

 

 

And also the True Details resin wheels:

 

 

The Verlinden set is quite extensive, including a lot of cockpit PE and complete radar sets for posing the radome open. I have to look, but I think I also have the Eduard colour PE set for the F-4J cockpit. That should be usable for this build since the cockpits of the J and S were virtually identical.

 

This looks like a fun kit, and the extra detail and the colourful paint scheme should really look nice when she's finished.

 

Cheers for now,

Bill

[hacker]

Annndddd heeerrrreee we go again! Love the phantom!

[Navy Bird]

I never knew whether to call the F-4 a McDonnell aircraft or a McDonnell Douglas aircraft. It certainly was designed by McDonnell. McDonnell and Douglas merged in 1967, and the F-4 was still in production at that time. Maybe that's a good rule of thumb - if the aircraft is still being produced at the time of a merger or acquisition it can adopt the new company name.

 

Hence it's OK to call the Fighting Falcon a Lockheed F-16 (still in production when Lockheed bought General Dynamics). But it's not OK to call the Tomcat a Northrop Grumman F-14. It was not in production (ended in 1991) when Northrop acquired Grumman in 1994.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[mirageiv]

I will look forward to this! Lovely scheme and that etch set looks superb,

David.

[Air-to-Air]

Looking forward to seeing this come together. It's a colourful scheme on a good looking bird.

[Navy Bird]

Thanks, mates!

 

One of the resin pieces puzzles me. It's the sixth one from the left at the bottom of the above photo that shows the Verlinden detail set. To use it, one must cut open a panel in the top of the port wing, and then this piece of resin is glued to the inside of the wing to represent what's beneath the panel. But what does this detail represent? It doesn't say in the instructions, and I have no clue. Any Spook erks out there that have an idea?

 

Here is a better picture of the detail set, and you can see where this resin piece goes on the wing. Looks like there are also two panels in PE for you to position laying on the top wing:

 

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Dr Evil]

'Tis a couple of access panels on the top of (each) wing for spoiler actuators, fuel piping etc. Some good pictures in D&S, Daco & Jake Melampy's books. It's one of the few items from this set I didn't use on an F-4B years ago. The Radar assembly IIRC is a little long, but if you can overlook that it certainly looks pretty cool once fitted.

[Duncan B]

That panel wasn't usually left open without a stress member being installed IIRC (mind you that was maybe because in the second line unit I was on they were usually up on jacks, maybe on the Squadrons they could leave them open if they ever actually opened them at all?). I have the Verlinden set and IIRC they supply a PE part for the stress panel (or whatever it was actually called).

My memory isn't what it used to be (i.e. 20 years old!) so all of that could be complete toot!!

I'm sure this will be one of the builds to watch in this GB, can't wait to see how it turns out.

Duncan B

[giemme]

Oh yeah, Navy Bird dealing with an Hasegawa F4 and plenty of goodies! and

Ciao

[Navy Bird]

On 4/27/2015 at 11:31, giemme said:

Oh yeah, Navy Bird dealing with an Hasegawa F4 and plenty of goodies! and

Ciao

 

Save me some popcorn. With butter.

 

I found some more goodies today - the Eduard F-4J colour zoom set for the cockpit. Woo hoo!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

I found some more goodies today - the Eduard F-4J colour zoom set for the cockpit. Woo hoo!

That's a good one! Same I used on my F4-J; you'll need a bit of tweaking to adapt it to the fuselage, and the color match with what is normally suggested as the interior cockpit color is tricky; I remember I had to add a blueish hue to the grey to get close to Eduard color. Here is the link to my build, just in case you want to check that out (I feel a bit ridiculous trying to give you advice ... )

Ciao

[hacker]

Interesting history about those wing spoilers. On the first 7 F4H-1they were perforated but every Phantom after that they were solid.

.

Edited April 28, 2015 by hacker

[Navy Bird]

Not much to report, mates. I've been busy at too many other things this past week. I did manage to paint the cockpit with Gunze H317 Dark Gull Gray, ignoring Hasegawa's advice to use Gunze H57 (which is the early WWII USN Aircraft Gray colour). First, though, I had to plug the hole in the floor of the rear cockpit (no USN Spooks had flight controls in the back) and reshape the top of the rear instrument panel (Eduard has the shape right on their PE and the plastic must match) and also reshape the small console below the front instrument panel. Minor niggles.

 

 

As was mentioned earlier, the Eduard PE fret uses a completely absurd colour for the instrument panels and consoles, an unrealistic light blue-grey. Here is what it looks like:

 

 

Now, I could have found a paint that matched, or mixed something to match, but that would leave me with a cockpit that is an absurd colour. And it would deprive me of the sheer joy of getting out my trusty 20/0 brush, and painting the PE fret with Gunze H317!

 

 

I have a couple of spots I need to touch up, but I'll be a lot happier with this. I've seen too many F-4 cockpits at air shows and in museums, and they're not light blue-grey. No clue what Eduard was thinking.

 

I'll be using a combination of the Eduard PE and the Verlinden PE to tart up the pit. Hopefully I can find the time to spend during this coming week. I'm pleased that Hasegawa made an attempt to depict a USN Phantom cockpit, especially for the back seat where there are a lot of differences. The PE details will go a long way to improve this further.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Air-to-Air]

Bill, I have to admit that I am a little bit confused regarding cockpit colouring. Most of the cockpit photos I have examined, and there would be less than a dozen, suggest the light blue-grey colour that Eduard appears to have adopted. I was planning on adopting that colour in my build because I assumed it was the "standard" colour used by the manufacturer.

Your first hand experience at air shows and museums suggests a much darker tone of grey.

I also note that the instructions on my kit (Hasegawa 1/72 F-4EJ Kai) suggested a much darker grey too: FS36231 (Dark Gull Grey/Dark Sea Grey).

It is important for me to get the colouring right on my build. I was wondering whether you'd encountered anything else in your research/experience that would suggest the light blue-grey colour used by Eduard and seen in the photos I've examined? Any distinction between naval aircraft and air force aircraft or a change in cockpit colouring over time?

I do feel more inclined to follow Hasegawa's recommendation now that I have read about your first-hand experience.

[Giorgio N]

Bill, I have to admit that I am a little bit confused regarding cockpit colouring. Most of the cockpit photos I have examined, and there would be less than a dozen, suggest the light blue-grey colour that Eduard appears to have adopted. I was planning on adopting that colour in my build because I assumed it was the "standard" colour used by the manufacturer.

Your first hand experience at air shows and museums suggests a much darker tone of grey.

I also note that the instructions on my kit (Hasegawa 1/72 F-4EJ Kai) suggested a much darker grey too: FS36231 (Dark Gull Grey/Dark Sea Grey).

It is important for me to get the colouring right on my build. I was wondering whether you'd encountered anything else in your research/experience that would suggest the light blue-grey colour used by Eduard and seen in the photos I've examined? Any distinction between naval aircraft and air force aircraft or a change in cockpit colouring over time?

I do feel more inclined to follow Hasegawa's recommendation now that I have read about your first-hand experience.

If I may step up on the subject, FS 36231 is what the manufacturer was supposed to use. This colour has been requested for cockpits of US combat aircrafts for decades, with no distinction between naval and air force types.

There have been exceptions of course, some quite glaring (I remember an F-106 units that painted their cockpits in blue...) but in general FS 36231 is right.

There's then the matter of how right this colour may look inside a 1/72 scale model, and of course of how good a certain paint match is. The Gunze grey used by Bill looks spot on IMHO, other brands may be worse.

[giemme]

Now, I could have found a paint that matched, or mixed something to match, but that would leave me with a cockpit that is an absurd colour. And it would deprive me of the sheer joy of getting out my trusty 20/0 brush, and painting the PE fret with Gunze H317!

When I did mine, the idea of repainting the PE parts didn't even cross my mind (maybe because it was the first time I was using per-painted PE)! An it's as simple as that! Well, thanks Bill, another tip to take note of.

Again on the interior colors debate: IIRC Hasegwa instructions call for two different colors, one for the sidewalls and one for the floor. Does that sound right to you guys?

Ciao

[Air-to-Air]

If I may step up on the subject, FS 36231 is what the manufacturer was supposed to use. This colour has been requested for cockpits of US combat aircrafts for decades, with no distinction between naval and air force types.

There's then the matter of how right this colour may look inside a 1/72 scale model, and of course of how good a certain paint match is. The Gunze grey used by Bill looks spot on IMHO, other brands may be worse.

Thank you Giorgio for the clarification. I will see if I can source some Gunze H317. Apologies for the interruption Bill.

[Navy Bird]

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

 

Gunze H317 is their match for FS36231 Dark Gull Gray. USN cockpits changed over to this colour around the time they made the switch from overall Glossy Sea Blue to the Light Gull Gray/White scheme. Tommy (Tailspin Turtle) would know the exact dates, but it was sometime in the mid-50s. I don't know when the USAF switched over, but Dark Gull Gray was used on most US aircraft up to recently.

 

Some US aircraft have started to deviate from that standard, for example F-16 cockpits are FS36270 and the F-22 uses FS37030 (NATO Black). With respect to the subject at hand, I don't know of any F-4 cockpit schemes that were two different colours, or were a light blue-grey. That doesn't mean that there aren't any, just that I haven't seen any!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

Bill, sorry to stress this point again, but I went back digging into the reference pics I used for my build, and found this (apologies to the author, it's just for modelling discussion purpose, will remove the pic if needed):

I do have a few other pics showing that sort of blueish hue in the interior color (which anyway is nowhere near the Eduard PEs). As for the floor, this is of course dirty, but it looks like a darker grey - whether this is a lighting effect, the dirt or the real color, I'd like to know... I don't have the Hasegawa instruction sheet at hand, might have to go back and check what kind of colors they called out.

Again, sorry for bursting in with this, I'd just like to know more myself

Ciao

Edited May 5, 2015 by giemme

[The 3rd Placer]

Perhaps the IP panel in this one has been newly added and the newer paint does not match the other weathered components. I think its just atmospheric conditions or lighting casting the blue hue.

Think of 40 (weathered) US Sherman tanks in a row...yeah they are all Olive Drab, but they would not all be the same color of Olive depending on a lot of circumstances. Some would be darker, some lighter.

Ryan

[giemme]

Ryan, I agree 100% with what you say. My point is, I do have other pics of F4-J interiors, the blue hue in some cases is not there, but they anyway show a light grey, not even close to Dark Gull Grey. Since I know that judging by photos is very dangerous, I'd like to understand what's going on.

Bill, sorry for hijacking you thread with this.

Ciao

[The 3rd Placer]

"Bill, sorry for hijacking you thread with this. :police:"

Me too Bill, on with your build.

Ryan

[Navy Bird]

On 5/5/2015 at 07:30, giemme said:

Bill, sorry to stress this point again, but I went back digging into the reference pics I used for my build, and found this (apologies to the author, it's just for modelling discussion purpose, will remove the pic if needed):

I do have a few other pics showing that sort of blueish hue in the interior color (which anyway is nowhere near the Eduard PEs). As for the floor, this is of course dirty, but it looks like a darker grey - whether this is a lighting effect, the dirt or the real color, I'd like to know... I don't have the Hasegawa instruction sheet at hand, might have to go back and check what kind of colors they called out.

Again, sorry for bursting in with this, I'd just like to know more myself

Ciao

 

I have to agree that this looks like a replacement upper instrument panel in the rear cockpit. All of the other grey areas, the canopy sill, the console sidewalls, the footrests, the sidewalls of the radar controller, etc. all look like Dark Gull Gray in various shades of weathering and abuse. I think the floor is just dirty - most of the paint has been worn off (notice the grey is still present on the floor around the base of the radar controller - areas where feet can't get to).

 

Judging by the F-4 parked next to this aircraft, the camouflage scheme appears to be one of the last low-vis schemes applied to the F-4 at the end of its service life. This cockpit has seen a lot of wear and tear during the previous 20 years or more. The aircraft in question is either an F-4N or an F-4S, and therefore started out its life as either an F-4B or an F-4J. It's an old bird.

 

I have seen quite a few F-4 cockpit photos taken inside (probably in a museum) where the flash on the camera has given the grey a bit of a blue hue. One thing I've learned here on Britmodeller, by reading many of the fascinating discussions about WWII colours, is that photography - even colour photography - can lead you astray. That seems counter-intuitive, but there are so many things that affect the final appearance. I managed a marketing communications group for about ten years and I can tell you that creating and maintaining a proper colour calibrated workflow is seriously difficult work.

 

That said, the colour photos of the F-4N and F-4S cockpits in my copy of the Detail & Scale book on the USN and USMC Phantoms look very much like Gunze H317...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

On 5/5/2015 at 11:35, The 3rd Placer said:

"Bill, sorry for hijacking you thread with this. :police:"

 

Me too Bill, on with your build.

Ryan

 

Not a problem, guys. I'm not building very quickly at the moment, so something is needed to raise the post count!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

I started working on the cockpit PE and thought I would share a photo of the front instrument panel. The instrument panel is a two-piece affair, with a backing piece that contains the instrument faces, and a top piece that represents the bezel. Alternately, you can use pre-printed film for the backing piece. I chose the latter, since it minimizes the overall thickness (one piece of PE plus the film versus two pieces of PE) and, quite frankly, the printing is nicer on the film. To use the film, you first have to paint the back side of it white so the dial faces show up better, and then you have to carefully cut it out. It's the same shape and size as the PE top piece.

 

Once the film and the PE are glued together and aligned, the resulting assembly can be glued to the panel. Lastly, a separate PE part is added that represents the large lens at the center top (shown in green - maybe it's a radar screen?). Here is what I ended up with:

 

 

As it always seems for 1:72 scale details, it looks much better in real life than it does magnified in these close-up photos. OK, back to work as there is a lot more PE to add to this pit.

 

Cheers for now,

Bill