Panzer Vor!!! Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 As far as I was aware the cause of the Air Asia crash was still unknown Yesterday the investigators were saying it would be weeks before they could ascertain what happened due to the noises in the cockpit Aslo the timeline was unclear due to severe damage to the black box Yet today it's being solved and one man has being found guilty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yet today it's being solved and one man has being found guilty I guess they were forced out earlier than they wanted by the information leaked to NYT and AFP. While I accept the solution presented has an inherent logic, I see the risk that new information may lead to a certain readjustment of the assessment. I imagine that it must be all but unbearable for the relatives of the copilot to have both lost him and having to live with the burden of what he (ostensibly) did, and it would be outright cruel to them blaming him on an unsecure fact base and having to row back later. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Badger Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Caution is definitely warranted here until the full cause is determined.... Even when the current information is pointing towards pilot suicide, I can still imagine a scenario, albeit a rather improbable one (improbable isn't impossible), where a stroke or other factor that impacts the brain (toxic air has been a concern for aircrews for a while now) could cause the co-pilot to erroneously believe he was acting in the best interests of the plane and passengers... and thus explain his actions. I know that's highly unlikely but then incredibly unlikely things have caused accidents in the past. Whilst I think the current evidence looks like suicide, it's just too soon to know for sure and hence why they are using the particular phrase "intentional act" i.e. the co-pilot intended to start the descent and intended to not allow whoever was trying to get into the cockpit, beyond that we don't know for sure he intended to destroy the aircraft and I guess we will have to wait for the interim report or the final report to know for sure (interim report is supposed to be within 1 year under usual standards for an accident investigation). Edited March 26, 2015 by Flying Badger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Badger Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Re: Air Asia, if you are talking about QZ8501 then there has been no speculation about pilot suicide or intentional crashing of the aircraft in that case. The initial report after 30 days notes that both pilots were in the cockpit and working to resolve the problems they were experiencing. In fact the captain at one point gets out of his chair and pulls the breakers to the flight augmentation Computer in order to stop it's malfunctioning having the adverse affects on the flight controls of the aircraft that the co-pilot (who was PIC at the time) was experiencing. So they were troubleshooting it together and fighting to keep their aircraft in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) .. I can still imagine a scenario, albeit a rather improbable one (improbable isn't impossible), where a stroke or other factor that impacts the brain (toxic air has been a concern for aircrews for a while now) could cause the co-pilot to erroneously believe he was acting in the best interests of the plane and passengers... perhaps, pilots have been locked out of cockpits by their fellow flight crew after suspicions were raised; but even this scenario doesn't fit. Even LH are working on the assumption that the aircraft was deliberately crashed.. Lufthansa-Chef Carsten Spohr geht davon aus, "dass das Flugzeug willentlich in den Boden geflogen wurde. Wir stehen vor einem riesigen Rätsel." http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article138806329/Copilot-brachte-Flug-4U9525-absichtlich-zum-Absturz.html The co-pilot's house is being searched currently . LH are saying he took a six-month break from flying during his training that is being investigated Edited March 26, 2015 by FalkeEins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 On the Airbus if there is no response from the flight deck. The F/A or other pilot can enter a code to unlock the door. But this can be blocked for five minutes by the person inside for obvious reasons like the F/A being under duress by hijackers. In order for him to lock out the Captain he must have been conscious and it had to be deliberate. The only question now is why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I said to my mate at work yesterday that I suspect suicide. It seems it MAY be the case. Its not unknown of pilots comitting suicide but not in airliners. They are looking at the co pilots medical history by the sound of it. Actually it was one of my first thoughts too, after having seen the flight profile on fr24. Of all the technical possibilities I could think of, there was always a piece of the jigsaw which didn't fit as more and more details came dripping in (no emergency squawk, too slow ROD for a decompression, no radio contact etc). You always hope fore some additional infos which prove you wrong. We'll have to wait until the final report is out. Sad day. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It's a truly extraordinary outcome if the initial findings are correct. Never expected this from a leading European airline. The ramifications for the rest of us are ominous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonD Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Reports now saying the co-pilot suffered from depression and concealed an illness (what it was they're not saying) from the airline. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) That airline spokesman who said that there were no plans for two people in the cockpit at all times and that they trusted their crews,training etc. will be told in days,if that long, to change their procedures. They'll also have to ensure they don't have any more "unsuitable" pilots. I can't believe that this pilot was allowed to complete his training let alone fly an airliner with what was written on his docs. This is Lufthansa not some bush outfit. As I said previously,David Learmont called this as a pilot suicide only a few hours after it happened and you know how careful he is with his words. Edited March 27, 2015 by bzn20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Foster60 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I am a little worried about some of the ideas I have seen to stop this happening again. Are they seriously suggesting putting a Stewardess in the cockpit when the captain goes to the loo? Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I am a little worried about some of the ideas I have seen to stop this happening again. Are they seriously suggesting putting a Stewardess in the cockpit when the captain goes to the loo? Nigel Hope not! A Steward or even a 3rd pilot or a new job could be created to keep costs down.I dont think anything is out of the question because they have to get it right if they are trying to prevent it happening again and that will put the cat amongst the Pigeons.Imagine the budget airlines with that overhead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Never expected this from a leading European airline. ..pre 'lo-cost' you mean? the 'major European airlines' don't really exist anymore.. Edited March 27, 2015 by FalkeEins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 ..pre 'lo-cost' you mean? the 'major European airlines' don't really exist anymore.. Yeah...............Big old established airlines from Europe is such a long winded way of putting it. Don't believe you said that and actually believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) left AF in 93.. KL, SN, SR, & AZ were 'major European airlines' back then, even BM....gone (to all intents and purposes) ..EZY, RYR barely existed then. 'major European airline' crew probably earn not much more than a Tesco's check-out agent. At current conversion rates how much would Lubitz have been earning d'ya think - still living at home with his parents, still paying off his flight training debts.... Edited March 27, 2015 by FalkeEins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Low cost airline doesn't mean cheap. Copilots at easyJet ten years ago were on 45k. Unless you think that's low pay? Edited March 27, 2015 by Brokenedge 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) my point was that EZY etc are as 'major' as LH/AF - both still struggling to cope with the 'lo-cost' phenomenon, still engaged on huge programmes of redundancy while hiring cadets on 'Future Pilot' schemes at rates as low as 25K (equiv/approx) Edited March 27, 2015 by FalkeEins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 All very sad, a young man who feels so bad he wants to die and so badly that he doesn't consider the other people sitting right behind him. His Parents must be in a very bad way right now. Their Son's suicide, which I'm guessing they had no reason to suspect was imminent and his vilification in the World's Press being laid at their door. As a parent I have no idea how I would reconcile any of that. This is not a unique situation but I'd be interested to know if the incidence in this kind of thing happening has increased since the glass cockpit, 2 man crew has become commonplace. Duncan B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I am a little worried about some of the ideas I have seen to stop this happening again. Are they seriously suggesting putting a Stewardess in the cockpit when the captain goes to the loo? Nigel They are only asking this person to be there not to get in the pilots seat and start flying. Some airlines do this already and I cant see an issue with it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 my point was that EZY etc are as 'major' as LH/AF - both still struggling to cope with the 'lo-cost' phenomenon, still engaged on huge programmes of redundancy while hiring cadets on 'Future Pilot' schemes at rates as low as 25K (equiv/approx) Well I suppose a 21-year-old might consider demeaning themselves in an excellent, challenging career on a salary of 25k until their unparalleled promotion prospects kick in after three years. It's practically slave labour, isn't it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 They are only asking this person to be there not to get in the pilots seat and start flying. Some airlines do this already and I cant see an issue with it. I believe it has been mandatory in the USA for some years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Well I suppose a 21-year-old might consider demeaning themselves in an excellent, challenging career on a salary of 25k until their unparalleled promotion prospects kick in after three years. It's practically slave labour, isn't it? You seem to forget that they have invested over £100 k of their own money to be there. There is no free training nowadays. They are then faced with no guaranteed work/income (zero hour contracts), temporary contacts, agency employment, a demanding simulator check every 6 months to keep their job. And all of this in a highly unstable industry where luck plays a huge part in their future employment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Vor!!! Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I believe it has been mandatory in the USA for some years. Ladies and Gentle men dinner will be delayed while the pilot has a wee Normal service will resumed as soon as possible :winkgrin: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 ..according to German newspaper Bild today http://www.bild.de/ - also reported in the much more serious Die Welt - the co-pilot had spoken about "doing something that would change the whole system.." http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article138724152/Andreas-L-soll-Tat-bereits-2014-angedeutet-haben.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 A terrible development, but can we stop sniping over work conditions, and get back to the topic in hand. 150+ people lost their lives in a senseless crash 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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