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Fritag

A pair of Airfix Hawks in 1/72

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CedB    27,736

Thanks Phil, I think :D

I may have bookmarked that for later consideration...

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Ex-FAAWAFU    10,250
On 12/09/2017 at 0:20 AM, hendie said:

or you could try using 1/32" brass angle - This has the advantage of having a nice "L" shape with sharp corners, and has a higher modulus than PE or shim stock, therefore less likely to deform.   Once cut to the appropriate length, it might be possible to sand/file down each leg to reduce the thickness of the 'legs'.  At 0.8 mm it might be worth a try.

 

If it doesn't work, I'm sure you'll find another use for it somehow

Worth a "like" for the use of "modulus".

 

Are you Jacob Rees-Mogg incognito?

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hendie    6,501
10 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Are you Jacob Rees-Mogg incognito?

 

I've been away too long - I had to google that one.

 

If I was, I doubt I would allow two pieces of the same angle to inhabit the same wing !   As for more than two VG's - that's just downright debauchery

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Fritag    7,111
On 13/09/2017 at 7:26 AM, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Are you Jacob Rees-Mogg incognito?

 

15 hours ago, hendie said:

I've been away too long - I had to google that one.

 

I can't help thinking that hendie was better off in ignorance of all things Mogg.  You've done him no favours there Crisp :D

 

On 11/09/2017 at 8:18 PM, Tomoshenko said:

you may wish to invest in a hexagonal punch and die set

 

On 12/09/2017 at 8:40 AM, CedB said:

I second Tomo's idea of using the hexagonal punch, but then I'm addicted to punch sets so it may just be tool lust (again).

 

More sublime thinking Tom.  Ably seconded (albeit from perhaps questionable motives) by Ced.

 

As it happens I have an old Historex Agents hexagonal punch and die set which I've never hitherto found a use for.  To be frank I bought it by mistake donkey's years ago at Telford when I picked it up thinking it was a circular punch and die set :blush:  I put it in a drawer and pretended the whole episode never happened......

 

Anyways I had a play:

 

IMG_1346_zps8kwnszjf.jpg

 

And one of the punches is just about the perfect size:

 

IMG_1347_zpsvfijviik.jpg

 

I knocked up a quick jig to help me accurately (and reproducibly) cut the hexagonal shape 

 

IMG_1348_zpscjaz4u1u.jpg

 

 

Thus:

 

 

IMG_1349_zpseoixafln.jpg

 

This shape then needs cutting in half to produce either two VGs (or One VG if both the vertical and horizontal element are reproduced).

 

So the process would involve three stages (These bu**ers are tiny):

 

IMG_1355_zpsk9hfxoqs.jpg

 

Here are a few test VGs made using this method.

 

IMG_1356_zpsvhvlmzgs.jpg

 

Out of interest I also had a go at folding a punched hexagonal into an 'L' shape to see if that was a possibility.

 

IMG_1351_zpsdrwvuvrk.jpg

 

 

IMG_1352_zpsmwpfnwzd.jpg

 

It worked Ok.

 

I should say that I've also tried trimming some VGs from 0.1mm plastic card cut into 0.5mm strips and using simple jigs to cut the strips to the correct length and trapezium shapes.

 

BUT:

 

I have to say that none of the methods I've tried so far convince me they will work adequately.

 

I was optimistic that using the punch and does set - and then some jigs to help me cut the VGs to shape - would enable me to accurately produce identical shaped and sized VGs.  And if you look again at the photo of the test results above they're not bad. But that's it - not bad.  I don't think they'd look any where near neat or identical enough fixed eight-in-a-row on the wings of the Hawks

 

The individual pieces are so darned small that even using a jig as a cutting guide there is a noticeable variation in shape and size.

 

It's much more successful using the next size up hexagonal punch.  But unfortunately way over scale......

 

The variation was greater trying to cut the VGs from strip plastic as opposed to the hexagonal punches (that really was a genius thought Tom).

 

I haven't yet had the will to see if it's possible to accurately and reproducibly cut thin brass to such a small size........but I'm not optimistic.

 

I shall muse on the problem for a bit and see if it prompts me to have a bash at home brew PE following the @Cheshiretaurus guide.

 

In the meantime I shall put the problem to one side for now and get back to the coamings and cockpits (after all - there are no problems - only opportunities :mental:)

 

Steve 

 

 

 

 

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giemme    7,507
10 minutes ago, Fritag said:

But that's it - not bad.  I don't think they'd look any where near neat or identical enough fixed eight-in-a-row on the wings of the Hawks

I see your point, and feel free to totally ignore what I'm about to say - nonetheless, just for reasoning sake: are you sure they would just be "not bad"? I mean, what I think is crucial here is the correct spacing and placing of the eight of them, rather than their consistency in size. After all, as you said, the effing b...ers are very small, and when installed on the wings with proper spacing, I would think that a gentle sweep over with a file would level out differences (provided they are glued in good, that is tracing receiving slots prior to installing, etc  - who am I to teach you anyway), if any noticeable to the human eye.

 

Then of course if you aim to something perfect under the nastiest macro-effect ... but I'm not convinced PE would sort that out much better.

 

There, I didn't mean to be disruptive and it's probably nothing more then venting out from me  - whatever you choose, it is going to be a pleasure to watch, as usual :) 

 

Ciao

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perdu    8,497

Tomo really does have genius thinking genes I reckon

 

The lovely hexygons

Yours are plasticard yes?

 

How about using champers foil in the punch and die set instead?

 

I think YOU could get really finely creased 90° corners if you try

 

Then follow real life practise with the vgs

 

The sticking point would be - sticking them down flush with the surface without having them sit on a blob of glue

 

I don't suppose you picked up an isosceles triangle punch set at the same time you bought that miracle set did you?

 

😞. 😱. 😟. 

 

 

 

😀

Edited by perdu

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CedB    27,736

Steve why do you keep posting photos of your metal rule? And DO give that mat a brush old boy, it's got specks of dust on it.

What? They're vortex generators? Oh good grief man, tiny isn't the word for it...

Now I know us kit bashers shouldn't try to drag you proper modellers down to our level BUT why don't you try 'dry fitting' some of those bent ones to some flat plastic to see how the glue effects the, er, effect and how perspective might help overcome any slight difference in size? We all need a sense of perspective :D

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limeypilot    4,013
56 minutes ago, CedB said:

how perspective might help overcome any slight difference in size? We all need a sense of perspective :D

You need that when you play with small tools all day!

 

Ian

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Kirk    632
3 hours ago, Fritag said:

I shall muse on the problem for a bit and see if it prompts me to have a bash at home brew PE following the @Cheshiretaurus guide.

<Mrs Doyle> Go on.     Go on.   Go on, go on, go on. </Mrs Doyle>

:dog:

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keefr22    5,361
2 hours ago, CedB said:

What? They're vortex generators? Oh good grief man, tiny isn't the word for it...

 

 

Wot Ced said - again...!!

 

Blimey....!! :blink::drunk:

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Tomoshenko    2,602
12 hours ago, Fritag said:

 

More sublime thinking Tom.  Ably seconded (albeit from perhaps questionable motives) by Ced

 

 

You doth flatter me sir. As much as I enjoy Ced's builds and kit accessories, I find them dangerous reading after a beer or two with Evilbay only a few clicks away. After a couple of evenings perusing his recent builds I now find myself in receipt of a Channel Tunnel TBM and a decommissioned North Sea Oil rig. Ah well I suspect they will come in handy one day...

 

The proof of concept VGs are looking good Steve. Even though you may not be 100% satisfied at this point. I think Bill is on to something with the Champagne foil. Alternatively there is beer can foil, or the softer take-away foil. Looks like you are gonna have to "take one for the team" and consume lots of take-aways, beer and champagne... Oh well look at is as an offering to the Vortex Generator Gods. There is also Mr C's home brew photo etch. Anyroad, a brief break to finish off the cockpit coamings then back to the VGs. You will crack it I'm sure. This is damned good and interesting I have to say.

 

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CedB    27,736

Ah Tomo - so it was YOU that outbid me on the rig eh? :D

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TheBaron    11,721
On 11/09/2017 at 10:22 AM, perdu said:

I divided that by the magic number and got 0.0086805555 which is twice that of a hair but awfully thin

That's exactly why I enjoy this forum so Bill; it's one of those few places where people will actually encourage you to split hairs....:D

 

21 hours ago, CedB said:

What? They're vortex generators? 

 Steve can expect a bill from my optician. My eyes have now fused into a single pulsating mono-retina trying to focus on that extraordinary nanowork.

 

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Navy Bird    8,807

I attempted a similar process for the VG that Xtrakit left off of their Canberra kit. In my case, I used the old Waldron round punch and die set, even though the actual parts are not circular. Some ideas of this insanity:

 

IMG_1091

 

IMG_1092

 

IMG_1094

 

1:72 scale, of course. When I realised just how many of these buggers had to be made, I gave up and built the Airfix kit instead (which was challenging in MANY other ways). To be honest, the 0.005" styrene I used was still too thick, scale-wise.

 

I shall return to this project, however, now that I'm equipped with the new knowledge of hexagonal punch and die sets! Surely this cash in pocket cannot stay for long!  :) 

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Mr. Friday, will you do my undercarriage for me?   :) 

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LongMan2    97

Hi Mr Fritag,

 

Well I'm not convinced the plastic thing for VG's on the Hawk's wings will work IMHO. I do recommend looking into using Photo-etch with 3mm posts that can be set into #80 holes in the wing. It would be taking away most of the alignment issues and give you the ability to straighten and not loose any strength. Plastic never sits where you want it and has a tendency to drift even when you think you have it set right. ..after many years I know what I'm talking about. But this will be a good effort I'm sure.

 

The tweezers I use were modified with a knife sharpening oil stone...so they can pick up a fine human hair. This will help in positioning those troublesome vortex generators.

 

To each his own...

 

PHIL.

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Ex-FAAWAFU    10,250
16 hours ago, LongMan2 said:

The tweezers I use were modified with a knife sharpening oil stone...so they can pick up a fine human hair.

A perfect illustration of why I love BM.  We're all as mad as everyone else!

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Navy Bird    8,807
22 hours ago, LongMan2 said:

I do recommend looking into using Photo-etch with 3mm posts that can be set into #80 holes in the wing.

 

I couldn't find anyone who makes anything like this (but I certainly could have missed it) - do you know of a source? Or do we have to etch our own?

 

Cheers,

Bill

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Fritag    7,111
23 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I attempted a similar process for the VG that Xtrakit left off of their Canberra kit. In my case, I used the old Waldron round punch and die set, even though the actual parts are not circular. Some ideas of this insanity:

 

 

I remember the thread now!  I'm sort of comforted that I haven't missed an blindingly obvious easy VG trick; or even worse, forgotten the blindingly obvious easy VG trick that I'd only just read about in your Canberra build :whistle:

 

23 hours ago, LongMan2 said:

Well I'm not convinced the plastic thing for VG's on the Hawk's wings will work IMHO.

 

I think you may well be right Phil.

 

23 hours ago, LongMan2 said:

I do recommend looking into using Photo-etch with 3mm posts that can be set into #80 holes in the wing. It would be taking away most of the alignment issues and give you the ability to straighten and not loose any strength.

 

PE with a generous mounting post does seem to me to be the easiest option - certainly the best way or getting identically shaped VGs.

 

40 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

I couldn't find anyone who makes anything like this (but I certainly could have missed it) - do you know of a source? Or do we have to etch our own?

 

My fear is that it's the latter Bill.

 

On 14/09/2017 at 9:51 PM, Tomoshenko said:

There is also Mr C's home brew photo etch.

On 14/09/2017 at 1:30 PM, Kirk said:

<Mrs Doyle> Go on.     Go on.   Go on, go on, go on. </Mrs Doyle>

 

Maybe.  Maybe.  Loins not sufficiently girded yet tho'.......

 

On 14/09/2017 at 9:51 PM, Tomoshenko said:

I think Bill is on to something with the Champagne foil. Alternatively there is beer can foil, or the softer take-away foil.

 

Having said that I was going to put the VGs to one side and do something else - I haven't.

 

And having said I was giving up on the idea of using drinking can metal - I didn't.

 

It's all of your faults.  Jointly and severally.  But especially Tom's.....:D

 

So I've had a bash at doing wot I tried with the 0.1mm plastic with some drinks can metal.  Soda water can as it happens......

 

I sanded off the paint.  And for good measure I used a tamiya diamond file to make sure the bottom of the old Historex punch was nice and smooth.

 

IMG_1362_zpst9f39ud1.jpg

 

I was pleased and a bit surprised how easily and neatly the drinks can metal was punched.

 

The hexagon shape is a little bit soft rather than pin sharp - but that's down to the old historex punch and die which isn't as good quality as a new RP one would be.

 

IMG_1363_zps4izzuxp2.jpg

 

Used the same jig to trim the hexagonal shape:

 

IMG_1364_zpszjbvmidx.jpg

 

Thus:

 

IMG_1365_zps4xmm7oxl.jpg

 

And then folded the remainder into an L shape with my PE folding gizmo.  It's a bit of a time consuming (pain in the ar**) guesstimating business trying to get the fold in the middle. Needs some clever jiggery thingy.....

 

IMG_1366_zpslbgyz3rj.jpg

 

But if and when I did manage to get the fold near the centre the drinks can metal took and retained the bend really well.

 

IMG_1367_zpsgxtyeluw.jpg

 

Quick practice sticking a few to a scrap wing.  No attempt at quality control here so a bit greater than acceptable variation in shape between the VGs.  Plus not a fully thought thro' methodology as yet - just a few pencil lines as a guide with the centre spot for each VG marked with a sewing machine needle; and a small drop of thick cyano as adhesive:

 

IMG_1370_zpsoyf9elfl.jpg

 

IMG_1371_zpsiwywc4b7.jpg

 

And then a squirt of Tamiya grey primer for a more representative look-see:

 

IMG_1373_zps9my9lnmm.jpg

 

IMG_1375_zpsy8c63bkm.jpg

 

IMG_1379_zpss3x7m3zy.jpg

 

Thoughts from the floor?

 

My two-pennethworth - for wot it's worth - is that they're not bad and show promise.

 

Not in-yer-face overscale and I quite like the look of the horizontal plates.

 

The drinks can metal is also good and robust.

 

But.  The downside is that it's time consuming and as Tony might say....

On 15/09/2017 at 8:43 AM, TheBaron said:

My eyes have now fused into a single pulsating mono-retina .......

 

And I'll have to crack the quality control issues.

 

The need to manually trim the punched hexagons and then to judge the position of the fold on the centre line introduces quite a variability in the final shape.  I'm not convinced I'll get enough numbers close enough in shape to make the effort worthwhile.

 

Still attracted by the idea of PE as the way to get identical shapes....

 

Its sort of been fun tho' - in a slightly (or very) sad sort of way.........;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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giemme    7,507

They don't look bad at all, Steve :clap::clap:

 

I'm quite surprised at how well the drink can metal reacted to bending - I tried that before, but any minimal attempt at correcting the bend angle resulted in a crack and snap along the bending line. Well, I guess it's more me than the metal ...

 

Ciao

Edited by giemme

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hendie    6,501

it may not be perfect but it's pretty darn close.  And as we all know, macro photography magnifies every single little not perfect bit.

 

All in all I'd say you did rather well there.

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Martian Hale    9,797
9 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

A perfect illustration of why I love BM.  We're all as mad as everyone else!

I don't know, that seems quite sensible to me!

1 hour ago, Fritag said:

 

I remember the thread now!  I'm sort of comforted that I haven't missed an blindingly obvious easy VG trick; or even worse, forgotten the blindingly obvious easy VG trick that I'd only just read about in your Canberra build :whistle:

 

 

I think you may well be right Phil.

 

 

PE with a generous mounting post does seem to me to be the easiest option - certainly the best way or getting identically shaped VGs.

 

 

My fear is that it's the latter Bill.

 

 

Maybe.  Maybe.  Loins not sufficiently girded yet tho'.......

 

 

Having said that I was going to put the VGs to one side and do something else - I haven't.

 

And having said I was giving up on the idea of using drinking can metal - I didn't.

 

It's all of your faults.  Jointly and severally.  But especially Tom's.....:D

 

So I've had a bash at doing wot I tried with the 0.1mm plastic with some drinks can metal.  Soda water can as it happens......

 

I sanded off the paint.  And for good measure I used a tamiya diamond file to make sure the bottom of the old Historex punch was nice and smooth.

 

IMG_1362_zpst9f39ud1.jpg

 

I was pleased and a bit surprised how easily and neatly the drinks can metal was punched.

 

The hexagon shape is a little bit soft rather than pin sharp - but that's down to the old historex punch and die which isn't as good quality as a new RP one would be.

 

IMG_1363_zps4izzuxp2.jpg

 

Used the same jig to trim the hexagonal shape:

 

IMG_1364_zpszjbvmidx.jpg

 

Thus:

 

IMG_1365_zps4xmm7oxl.jpg

 

And then folded the remainder into an L shape with my PE folding gizmo.  It's a bit of a time consuming (pain in the ar**) guesstimating business trying to get the fold in the middle. Needs some clever jiggery thingy.....

 

IMG_1366_zpslbgyz3rj.jpg

 

But if and when I did manage to get the fold near the centre the drinks can metal took and retained the bend really well.

 

IMG_1367_zpsgxtyeluw.jpg

 

Quick practice sticking a few to a scrap wing.  No attempt at quality control here so a bit greater than acceptable variation in shape between the VGs.  Plus not a fully thought thro' methodology as yet - just a few pencil lines as a guide with the centre spot for each VG marked with a sewing machine needle; and a small drop of thick cyano as adhesive:

 

IMG_1370_zpsoyf9elfl.jpg

 

IMG_1371_zpsiwywc4b7.jpg

 

And then a squirt of Tamiya grey primer for a more representative look-see:

 

IMG_1373_zps9my9lnmm.jpg

 

IMG_1375_zpsy8c63bkm.jpg

 

IMG_1379_zpss3x7m3zy.jpg

 

Thoughts from the floor?

 

My two-pennethworth - for wot it's worth - is that they're not bad and show promise.

 

Not in-yer-face overscale and I quite like the look of the horizontal plates.

 

The drinks can metal is also good and robust.

 

But.  The downside is that it's time consuming and as Tony might say....

 

And I'll have to crack the quality control issues.

 

The need to manually trim the punched hexagons and then to judge the position of the fold on the centre line introduces quite a variability in the final shape.  I'm not convinced I'll get enough numbers close enough in shape to make the effort worthwhile.

 

Still attracted by the idea of PE as the way to get identical shapes....

 

Its sort of been fun tho' - in a slightly (or very) sad sort of way.........;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those look very effective to me, I would go with then if I were you as I can't see how you are going to get them any finer.

 

Martian

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keefr22    5,361
1 hour ago, Fritag said:

Thoughts from the floor?

 

 

Not having either the eyesight or manual dexterity any longer to do work anywhere near this fiddly, I hesitate to say this - but they look a little thick to me Steve - will it become more noticeable when you have more of them, closer together?

 

Earlier in this discussion somebody (apols, can't remember who & I'm too tired to go looking) suggested using brass shim for the job. As I am in need of some thin metal for cooling louvres on my Brisfit cowling, I searched flea bay & bought some 0.001'' stuff. It is thin - very thin, possibly thinner than most paper, even possibly too thin for what I need it for, remains to be seen... But if the drinks can metal is working for you, this stuff might be worth a look at? (Cheap as chips too, it cost me just over 3 quid for a 6x6 inch square)

 

 

 

Keith

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TheBaron    11,721

I'd have the temerity to suggest that once you get colour on the aircraft Steve, that those VGs will blend quite handsomely into the overall visual context. At the moment of course we're all squinting at them in isolation on a pale ground, which is always a harsher aesthetic....

 

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