hendie Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 46 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: One can get remarkably thin brass sheet, Steve look for shim stock. I got a batch of sheets ranging from 0.001" to 0.020" quite cheaply off the usual place. I got about 10 x 6" x 4" sheets for about 10 bucks or thereabouts. If I was attempting such madness, I'd cut a strip of shim stock (once I figured out what thickness I needed) the same width as the length of the VG. A quick rub with wire wool will remove sharp edges. Then make a small jig to cut the correct angle - ignoring the height of the VG for the moment. Again a small jig/fixture could be used to trim the VG's to the correct height. After that, they could be cut to length (fold included), then folded. (sounds easy dunnit?) I'd avoid soft drinks can's - as mentioned above, I found that if you tried to fold that metal too tightly it tended to crack. Very nice work... actually it's nothing short of exemplary workmanship on those plank wings. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FZ6 Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Looking good so far Steve. Good luck with the vortex generators. When I've used drink can material I've annealed it by holding it over a gas ring. (With Pliers of course) and letting it cool naturally. This also burns the paint off. Alternatively I've purchased brass sheets of varying thickness in the past and this would be more suitable maybe. Getting them all consistent and glued neatly to the wing will be a challenge but I'm sure you're up to the job. Pehaps you could make a jig as suggested earlier to get the vortex generators cut to the correct shape and another jig like a plastic strip with saw cuts at the correct angle and distance apart to get them in the correct place. Keep up the good work. Regards, Mark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dads203 Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Another vote for brass shim sheet, these are good places to look for it. https://www.nogginend.com/product/Brass-Shim-Stock https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brass-Shim-Sheets-001-002/dp/B008AWEALU Fantastic build btw, looking forward to seeing these in the paint. Dan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 In 72 scale, would it be worth exploring painted dots rather than any physical bits stuck on or some bits of stretched sprue? Zillion times easier and probably more scale accurate! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 I think the pointy bits should show, they're visible enough even at distance but I really don't think the bent over tab would be visible, certainly not putting them on my Buccaneers For the Bucc I seriously wonder if setting up twenty angled strips with spacers that could be filled with a dash of curing resin would work Whip off the strips and shape the resin vgs with a sharp knife to suit the required angles Considering trying this next week, I'll keep all informed 😕 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonl Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Lovely legs Steve....! Interested to see what you do with the vortex generators, hope there'll be some tips! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) Hi Fritag, Nice work on the little hawks...cockpit and legs look real sharp. On this wing vortex things...I’ve done this in the past. Go to hardware store and purchase some long fine thread nylon/plastic bolts and split them down the middle. Then when finished to wing surface mark equal distance on the threads to space vortex generators. Then use Microsol liquid tape on the bottom of the bolt wait until it is dry and position on wing. Then mark on the wing where the generators are located and use lines as a guide when placing the card generators in place on the wing. I’ve tried this on 1/48 but not 1/72 and the key is the positioning. I used a chopper to cut the generators as accuracy is very very important. Stoppers positioned on the chopper table help replicate generators height which is key. No one likes uneven vortex generators on a wing...its tough given they are all in a row and similar height… There is prob more ways to do it...some photo-etch sets come with small tabs at the base of each of the generators so all you need to do is draw a line and mark spacing...then drill with #80 then vortex generators are cut/cleaned up and simply lined up with tweezers and glued with AC cement. Bolts can aid in alignment as well… This will be very tedious so go slow and take each generator at a time...prep is the key here. I hope this helps... PHIL. Edited September 10, 2017 by LongMan2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geedubelyer Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Hi Steve, Some mighty fine (in more than one sense) work going on here. Excellent stuff. As an alterntive to brass for the vortex generators may I suggest fine lead wire? Not real lead but the stuff used for fly tying that we often put to service as plumbing on gear legs etc. It's possible to flatten it easily by rolling it on a hard surface with the round handle of a hobby knife or similar. Once flattened the wire is very easily cut and formed. Two down sides to consider before embarking on this technique though. It can be a challenge to adhere the soft wire using CA and by it's nature, it is very easily deformed once attached. Good luck with these minute components. Your Hawks get better with every update, keep it up that man! Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) On 08/09/2017 at 9:09 PM, TheBaron said: Tbh Steve I thought that was a young Lord Byron in the photo at first until you said it was you. If there'd been photographs in Byron's day. And aircraft of course. Outstanding Tony. But you forgot to add: "And if Byron had looked liked a spotty, barely post adolescent nerd......." On 08/09/2017 at 0:48 PM, giemme said: Out of curiosity, how many of those things you need to do ? 8 x Vortex Generators on each wing Girogio - 4 inboard and 4 outboard of the wing fence. So 16 for each Hawk and 32 in total; which I'm pleased to say is nowhere near as many as the 86 that Bill needs! Thanks for all the suggestions Chaps . I was away this weekend so got nowt but thinking done....... Here's a piccie of the VGs courtesy of Graham James in the BM walk around. If you look closely at the nearest one - in the blue ring of the roundel - you can just make out the 90 degree bend in it and the 'L' shaped cross section. The horizontal and vertical limbs are identical shapes and the VGs are applied 'handed' in that on the port wing the flat plate points inboard and likewise on the starboard wing. It seems obvious that the VGs are manufactured out of symmetricaly 'arrowhead' shaped flat plate and then folded through 90 degrees along the centre line and the flat plate is then used as a fixing surface to stick the VGs on the wings. My first thought was to recreate that method of constructions so that the flat plate would make it easier to stick the VGs to the wings. I was thinking of how difficult it is to get one PE blade arial to stick on a kit - let alone 32...... However..... Doing the best I can to work out the scale size of the VGs from various photos (by measuring the length of a VG and the length of the wing chord and then calculating a proportion to be applied to the kit wing) it seems that the VGs are really quite small..........(I should perhaps have anticipated that......) And then, using the mark one eye ball to assess the proportions, its seem to me that the VG is a trapezium that is (as close enough as makes no odds) half as tall as it is long and that the parallel top edge is (as close enough as makes no odds) half the length of the bottom so that one of the short sided is vertical and the other is at 45 degrees. The result of all this measuring and thinking is that in 1/72 scale each VG is just 1mm long (rounded up from 0.8mm actually) and 0.5mm tall. So that's pretty darned small then.......But not so small (unfortunately) as to be scale invisible.... So. Initial thoughts (with due thanks to the erudite suggestions from m'learned friends above): (1) I'll keep an eye open for the results of @perdu's resin experiments. What's doing an extra 32 to you Bill if you already need 86 of the bu**ers? (2) Thanks for the template etc suggestions @LongMan2; I haven't bottomed the exact measurements yet Phil, but I know that the VGs are positioned in a straight line and I think they are equally spaced - so some sort of template is a must. (3) Interesting thought about the lead wire @geedubelyer and one I'm going to ferret away (BTW - good to hear from you Guy - what are you building at the mo?) the softness of the wire would be an advantage when trying to cut something this small. But I share your concern about the challenge of using CA to fasten them to the wings. (5) I've binned the drinks can idea - and the beer can that I'd saved especial like.........I think the metal is too hard for me to easily cut to these dimensions. (5) Stetched sprue is a neat idea @woody37 - and one I'm gonna keep in the background Neil. But I think at 0.5mm tall x 1mm long the dimensions are just rectangular enough to have a go first cutting strip material. So. I already have some 0.12mm Albion Alloy brass sheet (100mm x 250mm) and I also have some 0.1 mm Tamiya plastic paper (BTW I think the Tamiya plastic paper in 0.1mm and 0.2mm is excellent stuff) and some scrap PE frets to choose from. (1) I think that at 0.5mm tall the VGs are probably too small to be able to create from 1mm wide strip folded in half to create the 'L' shape cross section. I'll have a go but I doubt it's feasible. (2) I think the way to go will probably be to cut lengths of 0.5mm wide strip material and then (using jigs) cut that strip into trapeziums 1mm long with one 45 degree and one vertical short edge. (3) I think that it'll be more feasible to use 0.1mm plastic card than 0.12mm brass sheet or scrap PE. I suspect that the brass sheet/scrap PE will be too hard a material to easily cut a 0.5mm wide strip from it (although I've not tried it yet and I may be wrong) and I also think it'll be easier/better to glue plastic strip to the wings using Tamiya green cap then to glue brass strip/scrap PE with CA. (4) My tentative plan is to create double the number of VGs so that I have both the horizontal and vertical elements of the VGs but as separate pieces - and then begin by fixing the horizontal element in position on the wing (using a template). If this works then I'll have a tiny (0.1mm in fact) vertical edge which will act as a guide (and extra gluing surface) against which to glue the vertical event of the VG. See what I mean? If the horizontal element looks too prominent when I've fixed them then I can always flatten them down a bit (or even remove entirely) using a fine sanding stick. This is all speculation at the moment - but that's the thinking so far......... Feel free to comment/point out the flaws..... Cheers. Edited September 11, 2017 by Fritag 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedders Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Steve, I should be working too but i'm waiting for a plane so that's my excuse. Sounds like a good plan. On thought I had was to use plastic card, attach them in the right place but with approximately the right shape, but have a brass/metal template that you can place next to each one as you sand it to the correct shape. Then you do the fine work while they're actually stuck to the wing and reduce the risk of losing them in yer tweezers, as well as all the accompanying language that would result. Anyway, BA awaits. Justin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, Bedders said: use plastic card, attach them in the right place but with approximately the right shape, but have a brass/metal template that you can place next to each one as you sand it to the correct shape. Then you do the fine work while they're actually stuck to the wing and reduce the risk of losing them in yer tweezers, as well as all the accompanying language that would result Interesting idea - I'll practice that. Cheers Justin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Hmm I think I'm going to sit back and watch and learn 0.1mm is thinner than a human hair according to my cross-eyed computer reading ability The vgs on your picture ( different shape to those on a Buccaneer too) look to be about (in imperial, as my brain kinda works bestish) one sixteenth of an inch, aka 0.0625" I divided that by the magic number and got 0.0086805555 which is twice that of a hair but awfully thin Will you see them on the wings? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) I seem to remember a certain Osprey by Nigel Heath of this parish, where he had a very neat solution to vortex generator alignment using a template - might be worth looking back. I'm not convinced that you need the horizontal element in that scale - and a "gluing surface" that tiny ain't really giving any strength at all. Have you considered making a suitable vertical brass shape and then embedding it in a slot in the wing (made with a new scalpel blade)? [Edit: I used this method to build the tiny "shark's fin" IFF aerials on my Vixen, and it worked a treat]. That would give you much more strength, and a man of your exemplary neatness could get them beautifully aligned. You could scribe the horizontal element, if you wanted - or if you insist that the horizontal plate must be proud of the surface, how about horizontal made from plastic sheet / foil, then vertical from brass shim? Edited September 11, 2017 by Ex-FAAWAFU 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: a certain Osprey by Nigel Heath of this parish, where he had a very neat solution to vortex generator alignment using a template - might be worth looking back. Have searched Nigel's Osprey build without specific success. But in widening the searching for Vortex Generator to WIPs in general I came across this from Andy back in 2010. Be in no doubt that if there did exist a PE fret of Hawk VGs with little stubs on the bottom to be glued into holes drilled from a template - then I'd want one...... 43 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Have you considered making a suitable vertical brass shape and then embedding it in a slot in the wing? Ish. Have thought of a slot in the wing as a fixing method - and you've made me think a bit further. Perhaps simply pressing a 1mm micro chisels blade into the wing would be an elegantly simply solution? 43 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: I'm not convinced that you need the horizontal element in that scale Neither am I. But we'll see. Edited September 11, 2017 by Fritag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xffw45343tg Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Fritag said: Be in no doubt that if there did exist a PE fret of Hawk VGs with little stubs on the bottom to be glued into holes drilled from a template - then I'd want one...... Go'waan. You know you want to. Photo-etching would be such a useful technique in your skill set. And we'd all learn loads from your initial experiments with something as straightforward as a few simple little VGs. Probably impossible to build a Jaguar without... Kirk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicarage Vee Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) To file under the list of 'that won't work': The problems with things this small include issues of repeatability and the thickness of the adhesive used. Is it possible to make one, cast it on top of a piece of rod (so can make out of plastic or brass) and then insert the cast with a bit of the shaft into a small locating hole. IF (76 font) it sits on the surface it could disappear nicely. (or be impossible to cast in the first place). Edited September 11, 2017 by Vicarage Vee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) Steve, as you say those little effing bug##rs are effing small! Sorry, anglo-saxon daemon taking over for a mo' FWIW, I'll add my : I like the idea of separated vertical and horizontal tabs to reproduce the VG.I would use very thin plastic card for both (I have one kind coming from yogurt cup, which is I would say 0.05mm), but scoring mounting seems for the vertical ones (yes, you need a template) and adding the horizontals later. Whatever method you choose, I very much fear for your sanity - but if you succeed, it's going to look awesome! (That also means that you are procrastinating the painting stage by a fair amount, but I can live with that ) Ciao Edited September 11, 2017 by giemme 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomoshenko Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Steve, couldn't resist adding my few bobs worth along to some excellent suggestions already. You could experiment with beer can foil. To remove the residual curly memory, cut off a strip of it, hold it down firmly on a sheet of glass, or hard flat surface (I'm speculating Mrs Fritag may object to you using the kitchen worktop), then draw the edge of a steel rule across it a few times. This will make it curl. Turn it over and repeat. After a few attempts you will get it flat. Of course you may have to experiment with lots of empty cans...damn how on earth will you get them all empty in order to make lots of experiments... As for their shape. You may wish to invest in a hexagonal punch and die set https://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/hexagonal-punch-and-die-set-rp-toolz-rp-hpd.html They are a bit pricey, but will come in handy for all the vortex generators on your future projects and hey, you know you want to, such an essential must have piece of kit... Also if you bisect a hexagon across it horizontal plane / diameter (the A to D axis I think, if my geometry serves) you will get a trapezium. If you cut just below the A to D axis, this may leave you enough in order to fold and create the L shape. Hope you can make sense of my gobbledegook...Good luck. Tomoshenko's Acme Oracle machine predicts much eyestrain... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abat Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Very interested to see how you do this. I like the very thin plastic card idea as I find plastic so much easier to work with. Bits of brass and superglue are an abominable combination to me. Be careful if using xtra thin cement as you don't want to flood it on and melt all your good work. It's hot stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 or you could try using 1/32" brass angle - This has the advantage of having a nice "L" shape with sharp corners, and has a higher modulus than PE or shim stock, therefore less likely to deform. Once cut to the appropriate length, it might be possible to sand/file down each leg to reduce the thickness of the 'legs'. At 0.8 mm it might be worth a try. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you'll find another use for it somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Hi fritag, The thinner the card the weaker it is to glues and mechanical damage. PE is the only way to go. There may be an existing PE sheet for another aircraft etc...that could be modified. Or if you have the money pay for a company to do a set for you. Damage to the VG's on the wing is likely...so they is the last thing to go on the model.. Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Just caught up Steve - nice legs (q.v.), great consoles, lovely stuff I second Tomo's idea of using the hexagonal punch, but then I'm addicted to punch sets so it may just be tool lust (again). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 I'm just glad I don't build in 1/72 ( except multi engine )'anymore. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xffw45343tg Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 5 hours ago, LongMan2 said: pay for a company to do a set for you Wash your mouth out young man! Air Marshall Fritag sub-contract impossibly intricate modelling opportunity? I think not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philp Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 You can always create your own Photoetch. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944044-how-to-make-photo-etched-parts-at-home/ http://www.micromark.com/Micro-Mark-Pro-Etch-Photo-Etch-System_2 and a link to someone using this for the first time: https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/8385-first-attempts-at-photo-etch-with-micro-mark-pro-etch/ Or you can wait for Ced to buy it and then have him make them for you. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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