Having trouble getting a good colour match for RAF post war Camo scheme

[Duncan B]

I'm needing some advice on the best paint to use for the RAF's tactical camouflage for Hunters through to Phantoms. I would prefer airbrushing acrylics, although I have used enamels in the past.

I have currently stalled with my Phantom build as the Gunze colours I have used just don't look right to me, especially when I compare it to my Javelin painted many moons ago using Xtracolour paints.

Phantom painted using Gunze Mr Color Dark Sea Grey BS381C/638 (C331) and Dark Green BS381C/641 (C330).

Javelin painted using Xtracolour's equivalents.

As you can see there is a noticeable difference even in the photographs.

I have Tamiya's XF81 and XF82 but have never used them, are they any closer?

I would be interested to hear other BMers views and preferences.

Duncan B

[Giorgio N]

Tamiya XF82 is no good as it matches WW2 Ocean Grey, not the same colour you need.

My favourite dark green is Vallejo's 888 Olive Grey from the standard range. If you are fine spraying these paints, give it a try, I like it and you may like it too. It's extremely close to the shade on your Javelin

For dark sea grey I've used another Vallejo paint, 991 Dark Sea Grey. It worked well in the beginning, but at some point the paint in the bottle became a bit too "purplish", don't know why.

Alternatively, you could try Xtracrylics... they are afterall the acrylic version of the Xtracolours you found good. I believe Humbrol have these colours in acrylic form too.

Small observation: all the paints I've listed here are water soluble acrylics, I know that not everybody spray them succesfully, and in my experience they are a bit tricky compared to Tamiya's or Gunze's

[AnonymousAA72]

I always use Xtracylic......no need for anything else in my book! Well, apart from Medium Sea Grey, I use Tamiya's version, but for all other post war UK colours...Xtracrylic all of the way.....AND, its worth taking into account that glossy paint appears to be darker than matt paint, and that in real life there were variations, due to different batches of paint, weathering and fading. My advice is to stick with a brand you have faith in....

Edited March 5, 2015 by Bill Clark

[Fatboydim]

That Javelin looks good.

[Mr T]

I have used Xtracrylix for some while and after having problems with them drying in the airbrush when using own brand thinners I now use a mix of distilled water (from Halfords, although you can get it in Boots for contact lenses) and Winsor and Newton Acrylic Flow Improver, and it sprays much better. You might also try Humbrols Acrylic thinner which seems to work ok with Humbrol paint but I have not tried with Xtracrylix. I think some of the problems with the waterbased acrylics is they seem to have a narrow range of paint/thinner ratio and so it can be difficult to obtain any sort of decent finish

[Duncan B]

The Harrier looks more like I was hoping for when I painted the Phantom, the Javelin grey is a bit light but I was happy to imagine it has faded.

I was hoping to stay clear of Xtracrylics as I have had problems with it clogging the airbrush and also with it falling off the model while masking etc. Has to be said that their RAF colours do seem to be the most accurate though. Vallejo paints are also a type I have had similar experiences with. I guess I was hoping for a close Tamiya or Gunze match as I am happier with the alcohol based acrylics.

I will order the Vallejo and Xtracrylics paints and see how they go however if anyone has any suggestions for other makes please let me know.

Many thanks Gents

Duncan B

[The Good Sergeant]

I think both the Phantom and Javelin look fine. The colors on the former may need to be lightened a bit with some white or light grey, but ultimately -- and it's just my personal preference -- I wouldn't want all of my models to look like they came out of the same paint shop on the same day and weathered the same way.

Steven Brown
Scale Model Soup

[AnonymousAA72]

The Harrier looks more like I was hoping for when I painted the Phantom, the Javelin grey is a bit light but I was happy to imagine it has faded.

I was hoping to stay clear of Xtracrylics as I have had problems with it clogging the airbrush and also with it falling off the model while masking etc. Has to be said that their RAF colours do seem to be the most accurate though. Vallejo paints are also a type I have had similar experiences with. I guess I was hoping for a close Tamiya or Gunze match as I am happier with the alcohol based acrylics.

I will order the Vallejo and Xtracrylics paints and see how they go however if anyone has any suggestions for other makes please let me know.

Many thanks Gents

Duncan B

Hi Duncan, I've had problems with Xtracrylic over the years, with paint peeling, but the latest batches seem to be better. I Now find that I have to use a good primer, Tamiya for example on a perfectly clean surface. The Xtracrylic sprays on better with a little amount of thinners and on a high pressure, probably around 20psi. With the obligatory drop or two of Windsor & Newtons Acrylic retarder and jobs a good'un....mostly. I only ever use Tamiya masking tape and try to let the paint dry as long as possible before applying it after reducing the stickiness first by applying it to the work top first.

[Duncan B]

Has anyone any experience of the Ammo by Mig paints? I see that they have a paint set that covers the RAF colours from the '50's onwards.

Duncan B

[Procopius]

No, but I noted they used FS numbers, which does not inspire confidence.

[Duncan B]

Yes, I noticed that too. The set was only £10 so I've ordered that along with the Xtracrylics as a fall back. At a push I could still use the enamels that I already have but I seem to remember that they took weeks to dry, even using cellulose as a thinner.

I'm a bit fed up as I really wanted to get the Phantom finished but the colours I've painted it would just annoy me and I'm not going to waste after market decals on a paint job that I'm not 100% happy with. Oh, and I haven't mentioned the LAG either but I'll live with that.

Duncan B

[Duncan B]

This month's MAI has a build article of an AV 8A by Mike Williams and he has used Mr Hobby paints too but not the RAF ones. Now I understand that the AV8's were probably painted with US paints but his model looks a lot closer to the RAF colours than my Phantom does.

So here are the colours Mike used (all Mr Hobby): H22 Neutral Grey for the Dk Grey, H309 FS 34079 Dk Green and H315 FS16440 Lt Gull Grey for the LAG.

I also received the Ammo by Mig RAF set today, it has FS36118 for Med Sea Grey, FS36314 as LAG BS626, FS26173 as Dk Sea Grey BS638 and FS34079 as Dk Green BS641.

Duncan B

[Graham Boak]

I was working at Dunsfold at the relevant time, and memory tells me that the first AV8As appeared identical to RAF ones. What happened after delivery may be another matter.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Graham Boak

[sloegin57]

This month's MAI has a build article of an AV 8A by Mike Williams and he has used Mr Hobby paints too but not the RAF ones. Now I understand that the AV8's were probably painted with US paints but his model looks a lot closer to the RAF colours than my Phantom does.

Duncan B

Which MAI Duncan ?. Model Aircraft or Model Airplane ?

I was working at Dunsfold at the relevant time, and memory tells me that the first AV8As appeared identical to RAF ones. What happened after delivery may be another matter.

They were Graham - standard RAF DSG/DG/LAG and it was another matter. Grey's (sorry, Grays) and Greens from a rattle can for touch ups - the USMC were/are not so pedantic as modern day modellers regarding colours and accuracy thereof to a fraction of a Gnats whisker (neither were we for that matter) :-

Dennis

[Duncan B]

It is in March edition of Model Airplane, Dennis. He reworks the Airfix 1/72 GR1 into an AV8A with attractive dayglo outer wings and fin. The colours look a lot better than the colours on my Phantom anyway.

Duncan B

[Max Headroom]

Weren't the AV-8's delivered in UK spec paints, but repainted in FS equivalents when sent go servicing?

AV-8A USS Intrepid September 2011

Trevor

[Duncan B]

That is what I thought but couldn't tell you why I thought that.

I'll have a trial run with the various paints and report back soon.

Duncan B

[Duncan B]

I have had a quick trial with the Ammo by Mig paints and can say that they spray very nicely straight from the bottle at 2bar and dry to a flat finish.

So far I have tried the colours identified as FS26173 BS638 which appears to be similar to Medium Sea Grey and FS36118 Medium Gunship Grey which I assume is their attempt at Dark Sea Grey. The instructions say to let it dry for 24 hours so I will wait before spraying on the green but this is what my paint mule is wearing so far.

Photos taken with my phone so not the best but you'll get the idea.

I think the colours actually look quite good.

Duncan B

[Duncan B]

So the Xtracrylics paints have arrived so I've completed my wee paint experiment.

Firstly I completed the Ammo by Mig experiment by spraying on the Dark Green onto the previously sprayed Medium Sea Grey and Dark Sea Grey. I then sprayed the inner wing with Xrtacrylics dark Sea Grey to compare with the Ammo version followed by the Xtracrylics Dark Green.

The difference in the Dk SG isn't too obvious in the photos but in real life the Ammo has more of a blue tint to it which I think is not right (similar to the Gunze colour I used on my Phantom). There is a bigger difference in the greens though.

You can see the Ammo green is much brighter than the Xtracrylics version (which actually is quite a good match for the original Gunze colour). I do like the look of the Ammo Dk Green on the Med Sea Grey for the night fighter scheme though.

So my conclusion is that the Gunze Dk Green is actually quite a good match to the Xtracrylics Dk Green (if we assume that the Xtracrylics colours are the closest to the real colours). The Xtracrylics Dk Sea Grey looks the best match too but the Gunze and the Ammo colours are too blue.

A note on the spraying, the Xtracrylics Dk Sea Grey sprayed well with a touch of Ultimate Thinners added but their Dk Green was a bit more problematic, clogging every couple of minutes. The Ammo paints sprayed well with just a drop of the new Vallejo Flow Enhancer.

Duncan B

[AnonymousAA72]

A good experiment Duncan..Just one thought from me..the Ammo Dark Green on Ammo MSG looks a lot like the Light Slate Grey used on Vampires and Meteor's (and Canberras of course!)in the high altitude bomber scheme(or whatever it was called!) . The NF scheme - on Mosquito's, Meteor NF's should be the same Green as used on the Day Fighters....I'd suggest persevering with Xtracrylic Green....

Edited March 9, 2015 by Bill Clark

[mirageiv]

good info on the ever difficult RAF dark green, Cheers

[Duncan B]

I still haven't been able to finish off this Phantom. I have stripped the paint off completely and am still undecided about which grey to use. I have also seen Mr Hobby H305 (which is their attempt at FS36118) reported as being a good match for DSG but have yet to test that one.

Duncan B

[perdu]

I was quite satisfied with Humbrols Dark Sea Grey for my Jaguars but I couldn't find a suitable Dark Green in anyone's ranges that I compared with

Ended up mixing a Dark Green from three Tamiya colours (XF 61 - 5 parts XF 60 - 2 parts and XF 64 - 1 part) which gave me the slightly brown cast I saw in photographs over that period

Humbrol's 163 gave me a more slate-ish cast and Tamiya's XF - 81 didn't quite capture what I was looking for either

I sometimes wonder why we do this to ourselves

Andy (General Melchett) advised me to look at the Vallejo Model Colour Olive Green, I am looking at a bottle now and I see why he suggests it

[viscount806x]

I always use Xtracylic......no need for anything else in my book! Well, apart from Medium Sea Grey, I use Tamiya's version, but for all other post war UK colours...Xtracrylic all of the way.....AND, its worth taking into account that glossy paint appears to be darker than matt paint, and that in real life there were variations, due to different batches of paint, weathering and fading. My advice is to stick with a brand you have faith in....

Bill, I've stayed clear of Xtracrylix because of the negative press they have had with clogging of the airbrush. You have obviously found a way around that, so what is the secret sir? Or perhaps it is as you said earlier to Duncan, simply a case of upping the px and using a proper thinner+flow enhancer.

Nige B

[Duncan B]

Bill's Harrier does look spot on and I did buy the Xtracrylics on the back of his recommendation and although I managed to spray them onto my test mule they stayed very soft and easily damaged by handling. Still might use them if I can't get a decent match with my preferred Gunze acrylics though.

Duncan B