How to get a 1/72 Bf-109K ?

[Troy Smith]

The Revell kit isn't a very good 109 of any mark, it has some fatal flaws. The worst one for me is that the undercarriage is mounted too far out into the wing rather than in the fuselage. I'd rather make the Heller one again, at least the shape is good.

Duncan B

No disrespect meant, but to me a 'fatal flaw' is basically an uncorrectable error.

If the legs are too far outbaoard?

Real thing, though missing some inboard sections I think.

kit sprues, as Graham says, not too hard to make new leg holes.

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/axis/previews/revell/04160.htm

A few things about this kit. First, the supercharger intake is a solid piece, meaning you'll have to drill it out. Second, for some odd reason, the clear head armor piece is molded to the fuselage halves and not clear. It looks quite silly and most of you will want to remove this piece. The cockpit is also a bit on the basic side with a seat that doesn't look like anything I can recall seeing in any other 109G-10 kit.

from this OOB build section

the spinner looks too long, and perhaps leaving off the backplate and filling the blade slots deeper might work.

I have one of these, I know, I don't 'do' 1/72, but got one off the sale pages cheap with the Eduard etch, and figured it would be good etch practice, on something I was interested in, but not too bothered about, not having done any serious etch fitting...yet.

I'll add some more later.

[Graham Boak]

I'm not claiming it as anything brilliant, certainly not a first choice to buy. Only that if you've already got one then those two changes will improve the look of the thing notably.

[dalea]

_{Timely topic ,since I have a QB prop on the way intended for a Heller K.. Re position of wheel legs, it has always amazed me that the only 1/72 Bf 109 where the fuselage can stand on the undercarriage without the wings(like the real one could) is the old deleted Airfix one. This is never mentioned in reviews to my memory.}

[Giorgio N]

Hi Paul,

By coincidence Dave N has just posted an AZ Bf 109G-6 in Ready for Inspection. A beautifully made model, by the way. He does say that there is a problem with the nose profile, and there are some photos and a helpful 'fix' for this. Sadly, to my eye I can't really see much of an issue, before and after both look the same to me. I must have some kind of mental block blindness

All I would say about AZ is the price of their 109's is comparable to Fine Molds.

Cheers.

AZ kits have been expensive in the past but their new range of 109s is much cheaper. There are boxings that don't reach £10 even if bought from the most expensive outlets and I've seen these kits for sale in Europe for less than €10. The Fine Molds kits are at least 30% more expensive even before leaving Japan...

[Byron Boyd]

Oh dear..I just bought one from a shop in town. I haven't even opened the box yet!

In addition to the other recommendations, Loon Models produces a replacement wing with the LG wells in their proper places, but it is a bit on the pricey side ($21.00 US + shipping). Available through Roll Models.

Hannant's has 3 @ 14.00 Pounds ea.

Here's Brett Green's review from Hyperscale:

http://acc.kitreview.com/loon72002reviewbg_1.htm

Edited March 6, 2015 by Byron Boyd

[Smudge]

Thanks Byron,

Interesting option. I followed the link, thank you. It looks like a very nice little upgrade set. I was considering getting a replacement aftermarket prop/spinner/tall tailwheel etc. This set has all those parts plus the wing and even a rudder, so although it's a little pricey, it may be worth getting one. Although I can already see my cheap little decal sheet buy spiralling out of control, and becoming a super detailed mega build.

Hannants seem to have bumped the price up to £16.80, which is a bit steep.

By the way, what is Loon set 72-207 all about? It is for a 109G-10/AS 'Erla build', and appears to be just fuselage halves. I would hazzard a guess at something to do with the cowling? Stand to be corrected, as usual!

Cheers guys.

Edited March 7, 2015 by chockhead

[Duncan B]

Here's my Loon Models conversion using both the wing and the ERLA Fuselage sets. Made about 5 years ago. A very enjoyable build but in the end I didn't use any of the Revell 'donor' but used left over Finemolds bits instead.

Duncan B

[Graham Boak]

There are a number of different shapes to the cowlings of those Bf109s with the large supercharger, i.e. Db605AS and DB605D-engine variants. One of them became standard at the Erla factory.

[Duncan B]

The ERLA cowl had a vertical panel joint on the port side running down from front canopy (you can just make it out where I went a bit heavy with the weathering. The ERLA G10 also had a deeper, but narrower oil cooler than the "standard" G10 (if there was ever such a thing). They could have either the small or large wheel bulges on the upper wing and Loon Models include both types in the wing kit.

Duncan B

[Byron Boyd]

Thanks Byron,

Interesting option. I followed the link, thank you. It looks like a very nice little upgrade set. I was considering getting a replacement aftermarket prop/spinner/tall tailwheel etc. This set has all those parts plus the wing and even a rudder, so although it's a little pricey, it may be worth getting one. Although I can already see my cheap little decal sheet buy spiralling out of control, and becoming a super detailed mega build.

Hannants seem to have bumped the price up to £16.80, which is a bit steep.

By the way, what is Loon set 72-207 all about? It is for a 109G-10/AS 'Erla build', and appears to be just fuselage halves. I would hazzard a guess at something to do with the cowling? Stand to be corrected, as usual!

Cheers guys.

Ooops, sorry!! - I was logged into Hannant's, using my US address, which thus displays the price less the 20% VAT. 16.80 pounds would be correct for a UK address.

I have never seen pictures of Loon's 'Erla Build' fuselage, so I would pretty much have to go with Mr. Boak's assessment. I suspect it would make a very interesting conversion, although perhaps a bit 'loon-ey', as you would have to purchase both the fuselage and the wing set, and use just a few of the original kit parts. Still, considering the price for a full-blown resin kit, it is at least in the ballpark, and would certainly yield a 'one-of-a-kind' result...

Or… you could just build the thing 'gear-up', put in a pilot, cut off the propellor blades, and mount it on a stand. Few but the most die-hard rivet cutters would notice the LG faux pas, let alone comment on it.

Byron

[Duncan B]

I have never seen pictures of Loon's 'Erla Build' fuselage

See Post 32.

Duncan B

[Smudge]

Hi Duncan B,

Thanks for clearing up the cowling 'issue'. Troy did mention it, but I couldn't quite make it out. The photo of your model illustrates it perfectly. Very nice build, by the way. If I can achieve anything similar I will be very pleased.

I think you may have used the decal sheet that started me off on this, Aeromaster 72-002? I now know that there is only one genuine 109K on the sheet, and that the 109G-10 is a completely different animal. Steep learning curve, but I'm enjoying it.

Thank's guys.

Edited March 7, 2015 by chockhead

[Duncan B]

Even the model companies don't always get it right either, I have the Hasegawa 1/32 109 G10 but the decal options are actually for Erla Built G10's which, as we've just discussed, are subtly different from the regular G10. Finemolds get it wrong with their 109K boxing of "Hartmann's last Kill" as it appears he was probably flying an Erla G10 rather than a K.

Duncan B

[Troy Smith]

G-10 cowlings, are factory dependant, as are often colour schemes.

To further confuse matters, some G-10 were rebuilt earlier G airframes, and some were new builds.

And, it has taken 45 years of research to get to what's now known, new information and clarifications have turned up bit by bit, so, say what I knew about late G/K airframes in 1981 from the Beaman 'Last of the Eagles' and the Monogram monographs has been updated and clarified, but it is a confusing subject.

I'm sure more information will turn up, but I think the main parts are fairly well mapped out.

From the casual modeller's point of view, find a scheme you like, and then pin down the details if you can, probably by asking here...

Cowlings

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1323015953/Question+about+bf109-G10+with+%26quot%3B110+engines%26quot%3B

3 types fitted

Type090Left-879x1024 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Type100Left-794x1024 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Type110Left-791x1024 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

Quote

The "Type 110" cowling is sometimes known instead as the "Erla" cowling, because (as far as I know) it was used only on Bf 109s built at the Erla Flugzeugwerke factory in Leipzig. The most obvious distinguishing features of that cowling are its different gun troughs and lack of a curved panel line just ahead of and below the port (left) side of the windscreen.

as has been mentioned, the G-10 could have two types of wing bulge and wheels, short or tall tail wheel, and I think 5 types of rudder have been noted.

one of the better books on this is

Messerschmitt BF109G-10/U4. Production Operational Service

Unfortunately OOP, and the JaPo books don't seem to get reprinted, and are expensive when they are available, but such is the nature of these specialist publications.

But there is a PDF here.

http://bookfi.org/book/1343992

I had the PDF but bought the book when one turned up on here, at a reasonable price.

There is also a volume on the Bf109K as well which is available as a PDF.

http://bookfi.org/book/1343117

Before anyone starts, the books are not available, are unlikely to be reprinted, and the only other way to get them is to pay a book dealer a lot of money, (or get lucky and find one for sale on here. )

eg - http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_3?ie=UTF8&field-author=Tomas+Poruba

the above two are not even available at silly money.

The later volume on Bf109K camouflage is not available as PDF. All the JaPo books I have seen or have are stunning pieces of work, but not for the casual user.

PS -

One of the most jaw dropping bits of photo observation I have seen in in the JaPon G-10 book...

see http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234924578-roa-bf-109-markings/

I made a posting in that thread, edited below, but i dug out the scans i was talking about, which show the only photographic evidence of a ROA marking in use was on the fin of a Bf109 G-10, which was a St Andrews cross in a shield, replacing the swastika.
The actual photo they spotted the ROA symbol in has to be seen to be believed, as it's from a wrecked hangar with the fin inverted.
The details are from spotting the piece of wreckage is the same plane as the one from a bit of film where you can see the '15'.
You have to look very closely! Superb photo analysis.
I hope this pic is clear enough. I went 'eh? where?' when I first saw this!

ROA109p66crop by losethekibble, on Flickr

Here's the profile. [partly reconstructed as the book says]

[Graham Boak]

The key name there (if you look sideways) was the French researcher Jean-Claude Mermet, who created the 090/100/110 terminology in order to make sense of his researches. He did self-publish a book describing his findings, but this work was later included in Aero Journal Hors-Series 1: Meserschmitt Bf109G & K. The text of these works is in French, but that is of less importance than the photos, diagrams and colour art. The concepts were later extended and published in English, in Krysztof W. Wotowski's Bf109 Late Versions, Camouflage and markings, published by MMP books in 2010. This is strongly biased towards colour profiles, and is even more inspiring to the modeller. I suspect it may be easier to obtain than the Japo books. I also suspect that there are others which I don't possess - it might be worth looking at the second of the Lynn Ritger's Datafiles.

[Smudge]

Hi Troy,

Thank you very much for taking all the time and trouble posting those lovely diagrams. That certainly does illustrate all the subtle differences very nicely. I had tried 'googleing' for something like that, but no luck.

I shall enjoy following the links in due course.

Cheers, all the best.

[Smudge]

Troy Smith,

If you ever come across this thread and have some spare time, please could I ask you to be kind enough to re-post some of the now missing pictures (thank you PhotoBucket), especially of the three different cowling types. 

 

Thank you.

[Troy Smith]

43 minutes ago, Smudge said:

Troy Smith,

If you ever come across this thread and have some spare time, please could I ask you to be kind enough to re-post some of the now missing pictures (thank you PhotoBucket), especially of the three different cowling types. 

 

Thank you.

HI Smudge

I  didn't post them!

 

A now deceased member of Hyperscale, Charles Metz. (another aspect PB hadn't  though  through, the deceased..)

I just right clicked and 'open image in new tab'  

first time I  got the 'ransom note'  I  hit CTRL+F5 to refresh.  and the image came  up.

I then downloaded them fine.

 

HTH

T

[72modeler]

Interesting discussion! I offer this link to the IPMS Stockholm article on the Bf-109G-10, with excellent technical description and photos that show the detail differences in the G-10's as built by the different manufacturers. Note the photo, which is the same one that Troy posted, that shows the wider track of the undercart fitted to the G-10's...seems to my old Mk 1a eyeballs that Revell maybe got this right on their G-10 kit, despite its other well-known flaws. What do you think, Troy? FWIW, I also concur that the Fine Molds G's and K's are outstanding kits, as are their F's, and they are pretty reasonably priced from HLJ. 

Mike

 

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1999/10/stuff_eng_detail_bf109g10.htm

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Smudge]

Hi Troy,

That's a shame. I knew I should have printed them off!

 

72modeller, welcome and thanks for the link. Some nice photos, I will have a good look later. I'm not too sure about the leg's. Too late for mine, I've 'corrected' my Revell kit! Although I do think there may be some panels missing from inboard of the legs on that museum aircraft. The bay seems to go into the fuselage a little to far?

[Duncan B]

Not so sure the undercarriage was actually modified to be wider track but just an effect of wider/larger wheels making the difference. There will be a technical term for that and I'm sure someone will be along with it shortly.

 

Duncan B

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Smudge said:

Hi Troy,

That's a shame. I knew I should have printed them off!

re-upped on Flickr

[Smudge]

Thank you Troy, that's brilliant.

 

Now we can all see what we're talking about 

[72modeler]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 11:22 AM, Duncan B said:

Not so sure the undercarriage was actually modified to be wider track but just an effect of wider/larger wheels making the difference. There will be a technical term for that and I'm sure someone will be along with it shortly.

 

Duncan B

You could be right, Duncan, as the IPMS Stockholm piece just stated that the track was increased, but not how that increase was accomplished, or by how much. I'm thinking it could be done one of four ways: move the landing gear attachment points outboard; increase the angle at which the landing gear struts are splayed out; increase the negative camber of the wheels, and lastly, fit wider wheels/tires. Not having a degree in aeronautical engineering or aircraft design, I'm only guessing that Messerschmitt would use a method that required the least modification and engineering, so in my highly uneducated mind, increasing the splay of the struts or the negative camber of the wheels would be  simple and easy to do on the assembly line; I would think moving the attachment points outboard would require more modification to the structure as well as moving the attachment point from the fuselage to the wing, which would negate the advantage of being able to remove the wings without  affecting the undercart. Hadn't really planned serious research on this  until I actually get around to doing a G-10...just making my mind up on the scheme and markings I like best and then seeing if I have the decals  will take me quite a while!

Mike

Edited July 31, 2017 by 72modeler
corrected grammar

[Wm Blecky]

As many have already said, Fine Molds is THE kit to have for a 109 and Hobby Link Japan is the place to go for the Fine Molds kits.  If you order from them you will find that the price is very reasonable (around $17 USD plus postage).

 

They may not always be in stock, but you can place your order and either have them charge and ship when it comes into stock or you can leave it in their private warehouse and add things then ship when you are ready.  Be aware that they will only hold things for 60 days.