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1/8 Citroen Traction Avant - revisited


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Another update - apologies for the delay but I have a few other 'projects' on the go at the moment.

The upper and lower arms were assembled and weathered next and these were fitted to the cradle using fiddly but working spindles so that the suspension will (in theory) eventually work.

The rear torsion bar cradle was assembled next and then it came to fitting the actual torsion bars.

Now, I’m no dimwit, but not in my wildest imaginings could I see HOW these things fitted to actually create some form of working suspension.

After half an hour of fiddling and wiggling, I had the torsion bars in place, but there was absolutely no tension in the suspension.
Something wasn’t right.

Dismantle, and start again.

Eventually, after much head scratching I finally fathomed out how to put the parts together to get working suspension.

The torsion bars are made of nylon, so that told me they NEED to be flexible for a reason.

It seems that one torsion bar is fitted with the suspension totally forced downwards.
Then, the other torsion bar has to be twisted around its axis – I had to use pliers – and then insert the end in the matching suspension arm.

It sounds terrifying bearing in mind the amount of stress on the parts and the fact they are made of plastic.
However, it works! The suspension is now nice, firm and ‘bouncy’ on both sides.

The next assembly to look at is the main floor and bulkheads.

Sadly, my floor panel is broken at the front, and the broken-off part is missing. Fortunately it isn’t too big or complex so I’ll scratch make that part.
The bulkhead – it gave a whole new meaning to the word ‘warped’…

The part literally fitted nowhere. I had to resort to some seriously scary bending, twisting and hot water treatment to get it even close to the right shape.
Then I taped the part in place with Sellotape – masking tape wouldn’t hold it!
After that, a serious bead of glue was run around the inside joint. I really DON’T want this part coming adrift.

Once the front sidewalls were fitted the whole thing was given a coat matt black (after primer) and some dirtying down a bit with a dust coat of matt earth.
Further weathering was added by dry brushing silver, grey, red oxide (rust) and matt earth.
Again, the pictures make the weathering look quite extensive and heavy but in reality, it isn’t.

The next task was to fit the front frame and suspension to the main floor.
After umpteen attempts at trying to fathom out the English version of the French instructions, I finally worked out what it all meant and the assembly was very simple.
I had a fair idea that my original thoughts were correct, but when building stuff in plastic it pays to be doubly sure before gluing stuff together.

I have to say that overall I’m quite pleased with my grubby ‘used’ engine bay so far.

I've test-fitted the engine to check alignment etc, but it isn't actually fixed in place until much later.

Bear in mind - as I've already said, the weathering ISN'T as harsh as the pictures make it look......

Roy

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Edited by roymattblack
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Watching along with everyone else, and with much enthusiasm and wonderment. A great job so far, and it bodes well for an excellent finish too by the look of it!

I am myself still trying to source one of these - it probably still being my one and only - if not current, Grail kit.

I know they can be had for top dollar but I'm a little cheaper than that, and cannot really justify RRP. Around a oner plus shipping would temp me though - anyone knows or spots one - give us a buzz will ya'!!! ...................... :coolio: ............ smiling of course.

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I'm grinning like a loon at your machinations with this marvel of French-wheeled lunacy.

It's like wrestling with an alligator on an ice rink.

It's also evident that the Pocher kit designers found a home after the factory fire at the Heller loon bin. Except the instruction sheet guy; he got the sack.

Your solutions are genius; your executions perfect for your mission statement.

Great entertainment my friend - please continue.

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Some added parts to the inner engine bay.....

There is a SERIOUS amount of detail in this car.

The more I work on it, the more I'm convinced this kit is way, way beyond the detail level of any Pocher.

Apologies for the poor close-up shots. They were taken in a bit of a rush as I was just going out.

Roy.

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Edited by roymattblack
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This build is moving along nicely Roy. I hope some of this detail will be visible when the model is done. I know we all put extra detail in builds regardless of whether or not it shows in the final product but, we know it's there. At least by us all doing these build logs others can appreciate the work that goes into making as accurate a representation as possible.

Wayne

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Many thanks you guys.

I have to say though that at this point, I've added NOTHING extra to the kit, and doubt very much that I will in the future!

Everything so far is straight OOB....

At the moment, I'm thinking that this is (so far) probably the most detailed plastic kit I have ever attempted.

It absolutely leaves anything Tamiya has ever done utterly in the shade.

Not just in the shade, but in the DARK - and that includes the 1/12 Enzo - which I have in my stash for comparison.

I can't praise this kit enough.

I will say that it really isn't for the fain-hearted, but it is a seriously well engineered, designed and produced kit.

WHY hasn't anyone done anything like it since???

A VASTLY underrated kit.

Roy.

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Very true and glad it's a real challenge for you Roy.

The only shame is that its age produces so much warpage to contend with. Also a Pocher classic hallmark.

Is it true there are even seat springs under upholstery??

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I was curious myself as to why nobody else is or has released any kits of this size or level of detail lately. I know there are a few things that come into play when a kit is released. First off would be, licensing fees to the real manufacturer, price point of the kit, expected sales or return on investment, are probably the prime considerations. That is why you are seeing re-releases of a lot of Tamiya's 1/12 scale kits with a few upgrades. They have already everything in place so it's just a matter of adding some PE parts a nice new Cartograph decal sheet and presto chango a new kit! You have to admit there is a limited audience for 1/8 scale car lots with high parts counts and a corresponding high price tag. This kit is a bit of a mystery to me as to why it was produced in the first place. I admit my viewpoint is from a colonial point of view. Then I realized that the kit being produced by a French company of a French car was sort of kit of national pride kit and aimed at a European market so, in that context it makes perfect sense. Consider this kit is now 9 years old and nothing of note has been released until last year when the newly reconstituted Pocher company released a whole slew of Lamborghini's. And, of note they are aimed at a new market of the pre-painted diecast kits along the lines of the large scale Angostino kits that are mostly pre-painted and are so expensive they are marketed in monthly installments. I think the market is mostly made up of lazier builders that just want to assemble rather than build and paint like the Pochers and this kit. Too many things are competing for people's time that unless it is easy and simple and provides some semblence of instant gratification it's not happening. That may be why the renewed interest and subsequent price increases around the older Pocher kits especially unopened kits. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Wayne

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I think you aren't far off the mark Wayne.

Nowadays it seems to be the higher the price, the EASIER it needs to be to get an 'instant' result.

I too have built the new(ish) Pocher Aventador and if just built OOB, you would have very pretty ( but lacking) model car in a few days.

I spent an AGE, and added umpteen extras and numerous completely missing parts.

Very sad that Pocher (Hornby) aren't really aiming at the true modeller these days.

Hence the great interest in expensive weekly part-work models.

Little more than 'shake-and-bake'.

Roy.

Edited by roymattblack
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Roy, I just had a look at the 37 pages of instructions, scratch that, 37 pages of parts drawings. I can definately see how Heller out Pocher's Pocher, this kit is not for the faint of heart. I can see a number of people abandoning this kit, part way through the build, to a dusty attic. I can appreciate your work here and this thread may have to serve as the "Paul Koo" DVD reference for the Citroen for any future builds of this kit. Great job!

Wayne

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Many thanks Wayne.

I have indeed contemplated putting all my build info and pictures into some semblance of order for others to use.

I'll have to give it further thought although it would mean adding far more detail to the descriptions for others to follow.

All that aside, it really is a great kit.

Roy.

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Roy, I think if you did, it would definately be well received. You are a builder that a lot of people follow and look to for inspiration and your work is just that good. I'm sure there are a number of guys that either have this kit or have contemplated purchasing it that would benefit from your insight and thought process. I know that myself, I constantly seek information on how to build better or improve my skill set no matter what the subject. There are so many things that tend to cross over from one type of subject to another type of subject. Weathering comes to mind here. Sometimes when I'm reading about a build that is completely off topic from what I'm working on I find myself saying "wow I can do that on my ....." With a model such as this Citroen I just don't think there is much out there on how to approach a build and overcome the limited and sparse directions on sequenes etc.

If you do decide to do a more detailed description of the build of this kit I think it will inspire and motivate more than just the builders of this kit.

I will get off my soapbox now, these are just my personal observations and I know it is no easy task that I'm suggesting, after all it is your time but we really do appreciate the work you put into your builds and it is always interesting to know the thought process and how to overcome the shortcomings of any kit especially one so complicated.

Wayne

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Assuming there are sufficient Citroen kits available to go around, I think a DVD of construction would be a very salable item.

After all, Koo's DVD of build material has become more necessary than any Pocher kit's instructions. It is always first recommended to any prospective builder by other Pocher builders.

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I agree with you Wayne, I have learnt so much from reading other build's on here, how to plan a build and to look ahead and maybe do things in a different order. I now look round the house and shops to see if there are things I can use to enhance a model, the metal from a drink's can being an example. I'll probably never build this kit, but the ideas and thoughts behind each stage will help me to produce a better finished model,

Andy

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Assuming there are sufficient Citroen kits available to go around, I think a DVD of construction would be a very salable item.

After all, Koo's DVD of build material has become more necessary than any Pocher kit's instructions. It is always first recommended to any prospective builder by other Pocher builders.

The Citroen kit has been recently re-released by Heller and is easy to get direct from them or Amazon.

The kits going for daft money on Ebay just show that those buyers/bidders aren't doing their homework...

I've been right through my build diary - not the posts here - and I've added an immense amount of detail and descriptions.

I now also have around 100 photo's that I've annotated with information and descriptions.

Future postings here will read more like instructions, such as -'You now need to...'

Rather than as in previous posts - 'What I did next was....'

If the postings seem somewhat text-heavy, apologies in advance.

It's all for a purpose.

Roy.

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I just checked Amazon here in the USA and it isn't available here but, it is if you switch to Amazon UK. That kind of goes back to an earlier post I made about this car and kit being more of a target for European market and not so much the U.S. market. That's one of the things I like about forums such as these; it allows you to see beyond what you are used to seeing and get a taste that's more global rather than local.

Wayne

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OK....

More 'detailed' information on the build, as per my previous message.....

FITTING THE FRONT CRADLE TO THE FLOOR

The instructions here are very poor. Once you work out what is required the assembly is very simple.
The outer ‘ladders’ on the front cradle go to the outside of the engine bay walls.
The torsion bars go to the inside.

FRONT BULKHEAD DETAILS

There are now many small parts that are fitted inside the engine bay.

Engine supports are built up from 7 parts each which include a rubber stop.

Several small rods, arms and levers are fitted next and again these all fit very well and are very finely moulded parts. It is worth spending a little time removing any seams or sprue marks here as these details really bring the engine bay to life.
Seams and the remnants of sprue joins will spoil the effect.

A very fine spring has to be made as previously described, and then fitted between the engine bay wall and an actuating lever. Weathering applied as per the other parts.

The clutch and brake pedal assembly is very straightforward to put together but care needs to be taken so that the two pedals are horizontal and level when compared to each other.

The outer retaining bracket is fitted to the clutch rod assembly.
This part may need the upper edge trimming down by 1-2mm to allow the levers to move.
The bracket will need to be clamped in place until the glue dries. Weather to match the engine bay.

The central spindle on the brake/clutch assembly ‘should’ pass through the outer bracket. In reality it does not reach but this makes no difference.
Moving the pedals inside the car should cause the long clutch actuating rod just fitted to move.

The engine supports previously mentioned should now be fitted.

................................................

There will be a PLETHORA of annotated pictures and far greater detail in the 'full' build file I'm creating.

This is only a 'taster' of what I'm writing/photographing.

Hopefully the above waffle isn't too long, detailed, or boring.

Roy.

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Edited by roymattblack
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This is fantastic Roy, it will help me considerably in my build. (If I ever get round to building it!!)

How lucky we are on here to have a modeller who is willing to give his time to putting all this information on here, and to build his models at the same time. I applaud you.

Excellent build, as always.

Best Regards,

Larry.

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More on the build......

The front shock absorbers are fitted next.

These assemble easily but make sure the small piston stop – part 230 – has fully dried in place before fitting the piston into the shock absorber body halves – parts 281 & 282.

The kit instructions show a part – 227 – that is labelled ‘Facultative that goes inside the shock absorbers. The English translation in the kit instructions does not mention this part at all.

‘Facultative’ means ‘Optional’.
Use this part to build solid non-working suspension.

Paint the shock absorbers matt black and add dirty brown and oil staining on the pistons before fitting.

Take care when fitting the lower bush of the piston to the pin on the frame. The pin is quite thin and could be easily broken.
You may wish to remove the pin, drill through the lower ‘A’ arm and fit a metal pin instead.

Once the (very) small pins and nuts are fitted they should be weathered down with brown/rust.

STEERING – PAGE 11 KIT INSTRUCTIONS

Section A:

These parts all assemble in a straightforward way.
However, the steering rack - part 69 - is once again a Nylon part. Due to the complex nature of this piece and the fact that it is mostly enclosed when complete, it is best left as-is.
Painting the nylon part is not really possible as the paint will eventually peel and crack.
However, the part can be coloured with a black ‘Sharpie’ fairly successfully.

As you begin to assemble the ‘working’ steering, you will quickly discover that it is very much ‘in theory’. The parts are actually far too easily broken, and also very tightly fitting.
If you are prepared to thin down and open up many parts, some kind of operational steering could probably be made.

Once built, even ‘as-is’, the steering will work sufficiently so that you can position the front wheels by turning them, but almost certainly not by turning the steering wheel.

Assembly of the remaining parts is very simple although getting the link arms onto the nylon pegs at the ends of the steering rods will take a bit of pressure and perseverance.

Add foil bands on the steering rack gaiters to represent the hose clips if required.

All of this assembly should be weathered with greys and browns predominantly to represent the dirt and water staining that would occur under the car. See reference pictures for details.

SECTION B

The steering rack is now fitted to the underside of the floor/chassis. Take care when turning the floor/bulkhead over so that the clutch control rod does not drop down and possibly break.
It is advisable to tape the rod to the bulkhead for now.

Make sure the plates are fitted to the rack the correct way around – longest end of the plate past the holes, facing backwards and away from the steering arms.

One closing end on the steering rack – part 231 - is confusing in the kit instructions.
It is shown and described as one piece.
It is in fact in two halves, both numbered 231, on two identical sprues – Number 9.

These parts are glued together to make the rack closure part.

The other end of the rack which forms the steering column attachment is assembled easily but not yet fixed in place.

Use a lighter gloss brown around the ends of the steering rack to replicate grease. See pictures for reference.

A small part - 365 – is glued to the inside of the footwell bulkhead.
Make sure this part is fitted with the steering column shaft hole angled upwards into the car interior.

.....................................................

Roy.

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Edited by roymattblack
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You are doing a great service Roy and not just to builders of this particular model.

You're revealing a wealth of tips and how-to's that apply to any model, any size. A masterful job and you should be applauded for the effort you put forth to help all of us.

You even gave us an English comprehension lesson in the first paragraph!

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