DaveCS Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 In reviewing a number of photos of any number of DH.82c aircraft which are still flying or are static I'm having a tough time determining if there's a difference between the "height" of the cockpit sidewall vs the DH.82a. You see, among all the various changes to a DH.82a as per Paul J's comments in the "bottomless pockets" tread: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234964177-tiger-moth-options-for-fans-with-bottomless-pockets/?p=1683258 I'm curious if there's a difference as well with the height of the cockpit walls. It looks like the walls are not as high.. almost as though the doors are removed entirely from either side to accommodate more room considering the canopy is installed on the DH.82c For example... note this image: http://www.skytamer.com/1.2/2003/3516.jpg While the canopy framing is rather "thick" and you can't see the sidewalls if you compare it to a standard DH.82a it looks as though the walls could be lower in height: Note the height of the front cockpit sidewall door in this image as compared to the rear door: http://img.planespotters.net/photo/130000/original/G-ANSM-Private-De-Havilland-DH.82-Tiger-Moth_PlanespottersNet_130568.jpg I'm curious about this as my intent is model the DH.82c and leaving the doors in (while just filling in the panel lines) on the Airfix kit may not be the right way to go. Any insight would be appreciated. Cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 On the 82c the doors are removed and the surrounding structure is cut down to the top longerons (base line of the doors) with only the abbreviated rear cockpit panel surround remaining above this line. John Ps your stuff has been posted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 John, Thank you kindly for the reply (and the stuff being posted of course ) - This is what I thought but couldn't be sure by searching online. Thank you kindly again, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The other things to note on DH82C Tiger Moth cockpit areas include different instrumentation, the coaming between the two cockpits is a slightly different shape having a kind of peak at top centre. Plus there are all those external differences, trim tabs to elevators, increased forward rake on the undercart legs, metal struts, extended exhaust which fed heat in to the cockpits, tailwheel, brakes for mainwheels, a cover at the cockpit end of the cables running from the rudder and elevators and the Menasco engine. Though only about a hundred or so were fitted with this engine and were used as radio trainers. Others still had the Gipsy engine if I recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Looking over the sprues of the Airfix kit last night I was quite surprised as I had clearly missed it originally. Part A5 - so at least the tail wheel will be taken care of Cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The Menasco Tiger had the air cooling intake intake on the left side (looking from the front) as opposite to the Gipsy engine on the right. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Based on what I have seen so far (and really I should review my photos from 2005/06 from the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum) it appears as though the cowling on the DH.82c (regardless of engine) seems to be not as "angled" as compared to the Airfix kit. The cowling looks to be a smoother two piece that is split down the centre vs what appears to be a three piece split on either side for "flipping up" the cowling doors as on the DH.82a DH.82c DH.82a Cheers,Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Hi Dave, That would be because of the Menasco engine fitted to the DH.82C. The new Airfix kit does have a slight issue in this area and it has been covered here on BM somewhere. I'm sure John Aero can / will explain. By the way do you need a vacform canopy for you model? I have spare available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the offer Paul but I've ordered one from John already I can't believe I'm getting this involved with such a little kit but there's enough photos and reference material out there that I think I can build it. I too have the Pavla kit that I opted to "wait" on until I had garnered a lot more experience (having done a couple Pavla kits already I wasn't nearly ready to tackle a biplane kit of theirs) but using that kit as a bit of a guide, along with photos, I think I can convert this Airfix kit. Like I said above, I only JUST noticed that the Airfix kit includes a tailwheel (so I won't need to scrounge the spares pile for something suitable) and it leads me to believe that they may, one day, actually kit a DH.82c since the parts breakdown does seem to make it possible. Cheers,Dave Edited March 3, 2015 by DaveCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I thought that too with the tailwheel inclusion, One can hope...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barneydhc82 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Of the 1300 Plus Tiger Moths built by DH Canada only a very few of the Menasco powered a/c were built as John said but none survived the war years. The interplane struts on the CDN aircraft were steel and about 1/2 the chord of the wooden struts on the British built models. To get the proper gear set, shorten the forward gear struts by 1/8". The baggage door was relocated to the bulkhead behind the rear seat and the cowling was hinged at the top with a reinforcement plate on the hinge line. There are a couple of articles on my web site on the construction of this kit which might help you...EDIT: Sorry but I missed that it was a 1:72 scale. Barney http://www.barneysairforce.com Edited March 3, 2015 by Barneydhc82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Thanks Barney!! Cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Dave Both the engines in the photo's you show are Gipsy's so all the datum's and angles will be the same. I'm sure that the Menasco thrust line was the same as the Gipsy. There are small differences in that the 82C shown has a slightly deeper side panel over the exhaust which I guess was because the Canadian type had a Heater muff on the modified exhaust pipe. Also as pointed out the forward rake of the Canadian braked u/c throws out the eye. Fit tail wheel must fit brakes.( the skid is a brake) If you fit brakes, it'll stop quicker and be prone to nosing over, hence the u/c rake which effectively moves the taxying C of G . The Aifix kit which is otherwise super does have a fit problem with the cowl and it's a simple to remedy as pointed out in another Britmodeller Tiger thread. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJP Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Dave, if you are interested in the Menasco version, Canada Aviation and Space Museum has one on display at Rockcliffe. A link to their website and a photograph: http://casmuseum.techno-science.ca/en/collection-research/artifact-de-havilland-menasco-moth.php Watch out for the prop rotation, the Pirate rotated the other way so you'll need a new prop. Also, the Canadian-built Gipsy version had an amended cowling, hinged down the centre for better access. Whether this applied to all DHC machines I do not know. Lastly, you might have a gander at Stuart McKay's excellent "Tiger Moth - A Tribute" for detail shots. I see you are in Toronto and the Toronto Public Library has two copies. Neither circulates but Toronto Reference Library has one and you can place a stack request online: http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/detail.jsp?Entt=RDM1588583&R=1588583 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 RJP, Thanks for the links - I haven't been to the Research Library in a LONG time (last time was probably when I was in University... some 25 years ago now *LOL*) The comment you made regarding the Canadian-built Gipsy is what I was going for. The Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum DH.82c is Canadian built and this is probably why I was curious about the cowling since it is, as you suggested, hinged down the centre. This makes things, I hope, a bit easier when it comes to building the kit with one side of the cowling 'open' - I also purchased a Gipsy engine from John as well. Cheers,Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Look forward to seeing the end product here Dave. I didn't mention the strut size as barney has done because I had short time spare to write up but you get the gist I'm sure. Take a look at the Trainer Type GB form last year. My Pavla one is among the entrants on skis! It may give yiu some inspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 All Canadian production Tigers had the centrally hinged cowls There were six variants of Canadian Tiger 82A, 82C, 82C2, 82C3 and 82C4. The Gipsy a/c were the better performers with the Menasco radio trainers being extremely poor on very hot days. The Menasco was a heavier engine and had lower power. The Menasco engine was an insurance against supplies of Gipsys drying up. due to enemy action. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCS Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Look forward to seeing the end product here Dave. I didn't mention the strut size as barney has done because I had short time spare to write up but you get the gist I'm sure. Take a look at the Trainer Type GB form last year. My Pavla one is among the entrants on skis! It may give yiu some inspiration. Well... after viewing some of the images from the Canadian Aviation and Space Museum's image bank, I could always build it as a DH.82c on floats!! (SBS does make a conversion kit after all ) Cheers! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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