Hurricane IId in SEAC service

[Troy Smith]

It's in my post # 9 above:-

"Some of our planes had two 40mm cannon fitted, one under each wing, replacing the 20mm cannon with which the rest were fitted"

Note 'fitted' and 'replacing' which makes it sound like a mod!

Nick

I think the chap just describing the difference between a IIC and IID for the layman.

You could stick a D wing on C, and it would technically still be a IIC, but given the structural changes and the specfic nature of the Vickers S gun, I don't believe this was local modification, especially when the wing already existed.

Note that KZ321 above is technically still a MK IV, but as fitted out is a IIC.

But as KZ321 is marked as a 6 Sq plane, it gets refered to as a 'tank buster' in many captions....

[Graham Boak]

An armoured radiator would certainly have made sense for a Mk.IId, but I'm not (yet) completely convinced that KX413 has one. I do notice (after reading the manual) the lack of a carburettor air intake. As the Manual puts it: "On later aircraft the carburettor air scoop has been removed, a gauze filter being provided at the air intake entry under the fuselage." Despite this precise point, the Manual's Appendix II is indeed disappointingly vague on some matters: it fails to mention the armoured radiator or more powerful engines. It does however say that a Mk.IV wing can be provided as a spare for a Mk.IId, but this would not make it a Mk.IV because of the lack of "controls and equipment" in the fuselage. I know of no reference to any airframes changing Marks in this manner, feasible though it could be. In design terms, the Mk.IId wing was a development of the Mk.IIc, but in practical terms, a conversion would seem to be a major effort for very little value. Certainly not a front-line job, as Troy points out.

Nick: I can't find the John Smith link on the BBC page, can you provide one? However, since typing that the last three postings have appeared, and suggest that he was indeed just describing the difference between the two types, rather than describing any direct conversion.

[Nick Millman]

Unfortunately no, because I cut and pasted it off their website to put in my 20 Sqn file. Here is the whole account:-

I was serving in No 20 Squadron which was an Army Cooperation Squadron and we arrived on the scene just after the rains finished, about September 1944. The Army had cleared a large glade in the jungle of brush and rocks and had laid a large strip of heavy gauge steel mesh as a base for the planes to land on. We carried a minimum of kit, no comforts, not even food as such. Our diet was hard tack, two biscuits a day, about 4 inches square and half an inch thick, and hard as iron. We lost weight, but the biscuits were packed full of vitamins and kept us going. We had our bed rolls and sometimes we were under canvas and sometimes in bamboo ‘bashas’, huts made bamboo, with a roof of bamboo leaves, there being no shortage of that plant in this area.

The Army’s objective was to head more or less southeast in a direct line to Rangoon, pushing the Japs back the way they had come. Due to the terrain, our troops could not be supplied with artillery, so that was to be our job. Some of our planes had two 40mm cannon fitted, one under each wing, replacing the 20mm cannon with which the rest were fitted. Each morning at first light two of our planes would take off and blast the enemy positions, allowing the army to move forward, and when they had secured the area we moved our planes forward too, just behind them. We were the Army’s heavy artillery. Throughout the day our planes took off on twos keeping up the pressure. Fortunately we had complete control of the skies and never saw a single Japanese plane.

The Japanese were soon in retreat and it was not long before we moved forward to Monywa. Here we were housed in bashas up on stilts. Someone suggested that this was to deter wild animals as this was tiger country but I guess it was to escape floods in the rainy season. Anyway I always slept very lightly and kept my khukri and loaded gun by my side just in case. Actually it was something very much smaller that caused me trouble.

One night I awoke in desperate pain about 2.30 and felt something biting into the small of my back. Whichever way I tried I could just touch it with my fingertips and no more. Two bugs had dropped from the roof and were digging their way into me, sucking blood as they went, and swelling bigger and bigger under the skin. I stood up, struggling to squeeze them out. I should have gone to the medical orderly, but his caravan was right across the other side of the camp and I did not want to wake people up. However, my movements woke the sergeant in the next bed and as he reached for a cigarette and lit it I had an idea. I pleaded with him to burn the bugs out with his cigarette. It would hurt but not as much as the bugs, I thought. I expected him to jab me quickly, but he brought the cigarette very slowly to the middle of my back so I could feel it getting hotter and hotter. Presumably the bugs did too as they dug deeper. “I’m sorry” he said, “I can’t do it”.

For nearly three hours I endured the pain, and as soon as the camp began to stir I went off to the medical caravan. The orderly said I should have come at once, I expect he was right. He simply wiped the place with a swab of ether—soaked cotton wool and the bugs came out like magic. The relief was unimaginable.

One of our biggest problems all the time was water, especially for drinking. We each carried a hip flask which we filled when we could, but water safe to drink was not easy to come by. On arrival at Myingyan our MO went into the village to inspect the water supply which consisted of a single well in the village centre. He drew up samples and tested them. They were full of bugs, he poured down some chemicals and tested again, and repeated this exercise until he was satisfied that the water was safe drink.

I think it was here that we shared an airstrip with the US Air Force, the only occasion when we actually met up with them. We did not envy the way their officers and men all mucked in together, sharing the same mess etc. Although our discipline was much more relaxed than in peacetime, and there was now camaraderie between all ranks, we still observed a respect for rank and we preferred it that way. We did however envy their food rations. Ours had improved a little with corned beef supplementing the hard tack sometimes, but they seemed to have endless variety and quantity, even with chocolate in their daily rations, but when it came to aircraft maintenance we were quite scornful. Men like myself were trained to do any job on the plane, with men under us who were either fitters or riggers apart from specialist armament, electrician or instrument men. In the USAF there were more specialists, which was a bad handicap in practice. When one of their planes was grounded with propeller trouble it could not be repaired, as they had no specialist to do the job and they had to wait for one to be flown out from Calcutta. If we had had the same problem I would simply have done the job.

The Officer Commanding for the area was Group Captain Don Findlay, who won the gold medal for hurdling on the 1932 Olympics. Every morning at dawn he could be seen outside his caravan doing press ups and other exercises to keep fit. The story was that if he caught anyone in a misdemeanour he would have them out there with him, no one took the risk that I heard of.

We had to watch out for snakes and wild animals all the time. I had two close encounters with snakes and on one occasion a rogue elephant wrecked some officers’ tents and a cookhouse tent before charging back into the jungle, but luckily no one was hurt. One day when we were on stand-down I led a party of men on an exploration of the surrounding jungle in order to give them something to do. We went well armed (against wild animals rather than Japs) but although we saw plenty of spore we saw no animals, the jungle was as dead and unexciting as the desert.

Again we moved forward, away from the jungle at last, this time to Meiktila. Here we were on the edge of a different sort of forest - pampas grass more than twice my height, and stretching endlessly, miles and miles of it. Just for the experience I took a walk in it and others did the same. The silence was eerie, and it would have been easy to get lost in it.

Here we had two visitors.

The first was Vera Lynn. A rough and ready stage was erected in a clearing by the camp and soldiers and airman appeared from all around and squatted on the ground. A spotlight had been organised to shine on the stage and Vera was introduced by an Army officer. Dressed in a khaki bush jacket and skirt, she brought a breath of home to that faraway place. We loved her!

The other visitor was the Officer Commanding South East Asia Command, Lord Louis Mountbatten. One morning at very short notice everyone was ordered to gather at the end of the airstrip, where we were joined by men from the nearby army units. Right on time Lord Louis’ plane, a big Liberator, landed and taxied up to where we were. Alighting in sprightly fashion, he walked to the centre of the gathering, his white uniform gleaming in the brilliant sunshine. Standing on a tree stump he called everyone closer, and briefly told us how the war was going and what the prospects were. It was a morale booster, and we all liked and appreciated him. Having given his talk he looked all around and asked if anyone had any problems. A soldier, looking very troubled, stood up and said yes, he was worried about his wife at home, whom he suspected of having an affair. Lord Louis immediately gave the order, ”Get your kit and get on my plane. I will take you to Delhi and see that you are home within 48 hours.” And it was so and the men’s spirits were lifted a bit higher.

At last came the day when we earned a little niche in history and really knew why we were there. As usual we had sent our relays of planes on their sorties from 6am. Sometimes they had a strike; often they came back having seen nothing untoward. This time, about 9am, one pair had barely been gone for half an hour when they came back in a state of high excitement. They had found the whole Japanese armoured force, tanks and gun carriers and armoured cars, out in the open. They had attacked and then hurried back to re-arm. The pilots could not get into their planes quickly enough. Off they went, attacked, returned, reported and, re-armed, they were off again for further attacks. It was non-stop for the ground crews, refuelling and re-arming and getting the planes in and out again. Some 5 or 6 hours later the pilots called it a day. There was nothing more left to blast at, just a heap of tangled metal. What possessed the Japs to let themselves be caught like that we shall never know, but we were grateful that they did and we made the most of it.

We moved on to Yamethin with a strong feeling that the war was being won. We were flown across the Irrawaddy to establish an airstrip on the other side. The Japs were retreating fast now and we were following closely, travelling down the main Mandalay/Rangoon highway from Touagoo to Pegu. Evidence of the war was everywhere, with no buildings left intact, vehicles abandoned and the road pock-marked with shellfire. It was early in May 1945 when the army re-captured Rangoon, almost coinciding with VE day in Europe. Victory in Europe meant more men and arms would be available for the war against the Japanese. There was still a long way to go to Tokyo, but with the capture of Rangoon we had virtually regained Burma which had been our immediate task.

No.20 Squadron never actually got to Rangoon, we stopped a few miles short. For the moment our job was done and we were to go back to India to rest and recuperate. What a gaunt scruffy-looking lot we were by this time. We kept ourselves as clean and smart as we could in well nigh impossible circumstances, but the anticipation of real baths, clean clothing and proper food made our eyes sparkle.

[gingerbob]

I do notice (after reading the manual) the lack of a carburettor air intake. As the Manual puts it: "On later aircraft the carburettor air scoop has been removed, a gauze filter being provided at the air intake entry under the fuselage."

Nick: I can't find the John Smith link on the BBC page, can you provide one? However, since typing that the last three postings have appeared, and suggest that he was indeed just describing the difference between the two types, rather than describing any direct conversion.

Blimey, never noticed that before! (lack of protruding intake)

Here's the link.

bob

[RussG]

Hi,

I have now arrived at the painting stage of my 1/72, 20 Squadron Hurricane IID circa April 1945 and after careful reading of the above I was just wanting the forums opinion on the colour scheme etc.

The colour scheme is DG/DE over MSG with white stripes on both on the upper and lower surfaces. However, I can't find a photo of a IID showing the stripes so I am unsure where to locate them; would they be in the same position as the Hurricane IV? and what width are they?

I have gone with the serial KW757 'Z' with the 'Z' aft of the roundel on both sides.

Many thanks in advance,

Russ

[Graham Boak]

Apparently (which means I can't find the reference but am sure there is one) the Hurricanes had the white stripes removed because this made them too obvious in their entirely low-level role.

[RussG]

Thanks Graham.

[Nick Millman]

See comment # 6. They appear to be painted over rather than removed and are still visible.

Nick

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Speaking of Hurricane SEAC camouflage, I'm making the AZ Mk IV in SEAC markings. It calls for Ocean Grey/Dark Green over Med Sea Grey with Light Blue stripes but I've seen others from 1945 in Dark Earth/Dark Green over Med Sea Grey with white stripes, which is correct or could they both be correct?

thanks

Mike

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Can anyone help?

thanks

Mike

[Graham Boak]

I wouldn't use pale blue stripes, not having seen any evidence for such a diversion from the rules which applied to everyone else. Whether you should apply the stripes at all is discussed above, and may depend upon the serial - did the aircraft arrive on squadron after the abandoning of the stripes on Hurricanes?

[Troy Smith]

Speaking of Hurricane SEAC camouflage, I'm making the AZ Mk IV in SEAC markings. It calls for Ocean Grey/Dark Green over Med Sea Grey with Light Blue stripes but I've seen others from 1945 in Dark Earth/Dark Green over Med Sea Grey with white stripes, which is correct or could they both be correct?

thanks

Mike

SEAC aircraft were supposed to have the Ocean Grey overpainted in Dark Earth, and unless you can find a high contrast photo, I'd go for Dark Earth Dark Green over MSG.

I wouldn't use pale blue stripes, not having seen any evidence for such a diversion from the rules which applied to everyone else. Whether you should apply the stripes at all is discussed above, and may depend upon the serial - did the aircraft arrive on squadron after the abandoning of the stripes on Hurricanes?

The toning down of the white bands has been discussed on page 1, though Graham makes a valid point.

This is a MK IV with what to me looks like light blue bands, in all positions, plus spinner. The relativity low contrast between the upper colours suggests DG/DE.

It bright overhead sun, and the prop tips appear white, and the bands only slightly paler than then roundel centre on wing.

HTH

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Thanks guys, Dark Earth/Dark Green seems to be the way to go. The serial no of the Hurricane IV in question is KX421.

thanks

Mike

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Does that serial no help answer the question?

thanks

Mike

[Graham Boak]

Perhaps, if you look at the record card in the National Archive. That should tell you when it was delivered to the unit, when it left, and thus if it fell into a specific time when the band/no band was standard, or indeed if you could use either. The published data doesn't go into the full detail. However, according the Air Britain serials (taken from the record cards) KX421 is described as a Mk.IID serving with 1 Service Flying Training School (India), which overshot and belly-landed at Ambala 14.4.45. And to avoid the obvious question, there was no KZ421 or KW421.

[barneybolac]

On 2/26/2015 at 5:18 PM, Nick Millman said:

Yes, a photo of 20 Sqn Hurricane IID, 'H' KX229 with the name 'Cheeta' on the nose, photographed in late1943 has a black spinner and no white stripes. The tail flash appears to be either red, white and blue or with the red painted out in a fresher colour as it shows. The rigger looks like he is using a foot pump on the port wheel. Heavy exhaust residue but otherwise quite clean looking.

I understand the over painting on the wings and tailplanes was sometimes in the so-called 'India white', e.g, pale blue, but I've never been able to confirm that. In the Squadron Signal book there is a IV with a clearly overpainted or non-white wing stripe but it looks darker than pale blue. Maybe Medium Sea Grey?

I think those SEAC IIDs and IVs make fine model subjects.

Nick

I have that Image as well.

 

[Nick Millman]

3 hours ago, barneybolac said:

I have that Image as well.

 

 

Good for you. That particular image came from my now defunct RAF SEAC blog. I wrote the caption on the blue background! It also appears in a 20 Sqn history, but not with the blue background caption.  

 

Nick