Pocher Mercedes 540K True Roadster Build

[Codger]

I just got some top material for the convertible boot for the K91 Roadster so I can start moving along on the body and interior on it.

What did you eventually decide on Wayne?

[larchiefeng]

Thanks guys, oddly enough taking the body off the K82 frame and trying to get it to fit on the K74 frame is not and so far hasn't been a very good result so I may just have to put them back the way they were in the first place. I know that the frames are identical however, as you may have already heard with Pocher kits you can't really depend on that always being the case. I'm sure Codger can attest to this as well as he is having issues of his own with the rear fenders of his Rolls not matching and they are in the same kit. One thing with these kits is never take anything for granted and check and recheck before committing to a permanent placement on the car. It's a lot like the old carpenter saying measure twice or more and cut once.

Codger, I have a sample from Marvin that they use and it appears to be very much the same thing that was used on the black K91 you see on their website in the leather color interior section. Marvin was kind enough to send me 7 pictures of that car so I can see it from most every angle. I have plans to build my K91 very much like that except I'm not going to be using whitewall tires or converting to the real wire wheels or opening up the rumble seat. Having said that, the gabardine is very similar in pattern but the sample from Marvin is a heavier material and oddly enough I think it's a little bit of a more open weave. I will take a picture, a little later, of the two side by side so you can see the difference. After a lot of back and forth I have decided to move forward more on the K91 build now since things are lining up better and I have all the material for the interior and I have already made a start on the fitting of the doors and hood. Once I get all that sorted out I get a coat of primer on everything and make the final decision about cutting the channel between the seat back and the tonneau cover. I think from purely a fit issue it makes a lot of sense so things will look more finished. The interior is uncharted territory for me so, I am putting a lot of thought into it. I think other than an Alfa Monza this is probably one of the more basic cars to do an interior on. I might actually do one of my Alfa's first just to get the hang of it. Too much thinking must do something!! I'll post the pictures later, I need to run some errands first.

Wayne

[Codger]

Wise choice to consult Marvin and he is very generous with advice and materials. Post when you get.

[larchiefeng]

Well, now after taking the picture of the two materials side by side I have to retract what I said about the sample from Marvin being a more open weave. When I laid the two side by side and took the picture it now appears that the sample is a little tighter. The first picture is with full flash and the second is with a bit less flash but, both illuminate the fabric as to show the fabric weave. I actually think either would work fine but, I am going with Marvin's sample since he sent me enough to do this car and probably a couple more. I am going to go by the fabric store and see if I can identify exactly what it is though.

Notice the material on the right has the appearance of a canvas tarp that would be used on a convertible top or the boot cover with snaps to hold it down. Roy had it right when he said look for a tight weave. It's more than a tight weave it's also the right look in scale. Oh, by the way the gabardine is on the left and the sample on the right. The sample is also a bit heavier in weight and actually feels like the type of material used on a top where the gabardine feels like a pair of pants but, again if I didn't have the comparison I wouldn't have known. So, bottom line when you're not sure go to the experts at MMC. You are correct Codger, Marvin has been nothing but helpful and great resource. I also asked about what they used on the finish around the outside edge and instead of styrene which it didn't really look like turns out to be a piece of heavy black wire. Now, to put all this to work but, paint and body fitting first.

Edited June 13, 2015 by larchiefeng

[larchiefeng]

Quick update this morning; it appears that the top material that I received from Marvin is gabardine. Now, I'm going to have to go back to the fabric store and look through the selection again. It's not as though I need anymore black but I want to use my sample from Marvin to see what other colors of gabardine I can find for possible replacement on the Rolls and the Mercedes Cabriolet. So bottom line there are different textures of gabardine and you want the one that is the heavier feeling and the tightest weave as the pictures try to illustrate.

Codger, you were right all along. I got a bum steer at the fabric store.

[Mpfiend]

Hello Gentlemen,

Apologies for not posting sooner, but I have been away on vacation away from the grasp of the internet.

Wayne, more fantastic progress and problem solving on the wheels, they look great.

also the research you have done on the fabrics for the hood is also very useful too, the gabardine material looks very authentic indeed.

I'm looking forward to seeing the next instalments.

I am very close now to getting some photos and starting a conversation about my build too so hang tight and it will be along soon "ish"

Best Regards

Keith.

[larchiefeng]

Well, I finally did it. I listed the Cabriolet on eBay for sale. I figure now that I have committed to only one kit I can concentrate on finishing up the 540K and then continue moving on to other builds. Cars have always been my first love but, I've always built planes too. So, with that in mind I am going to participate in a couple of group builds starting in July. Every so often I need a little break from staring at the same thing for so long. I think that is why I finally decided to part with my Cab. But, I still have Mercedes, Alfas, Rolls and a Lambo in the pile. I figure by the time the group builds are done the 540K will be close to getting done and then I think I'll build and Alfa Monza for relaxation.

[larchiefeng]

Not much to report but, I did list the Cabriolet on eBay and it seems to have a lot of interest so we'll just have wait and see what happens. Today I've been going through the Pocher Alfa Monzas I have trying to decide which one to start another build on. I did do some work on the Roadster body working on the door fit and mocking the door hinges on and test fitting the opening and closing of each door. I also laid some material inside for what leather is going to cover the seats and door panels. I also laid the black gabardine over the convertible boot to look at texture. The only issue I ran into is the passenger door needs a little sanding on the bottom and it will fit OK when the hinges actually hard mounted. These next few pictures are the result.

That's it for tonight

[larchiefeng]

Well, I've made a little progress on the Mercedes. I've basically put everything together of the body onto the frame in order to test the fit and see what still needs work. First up was to install the floor pan. This is a lot different on the K91 Roadster than the K74 Cabriolet. One quick note here; I did sell the Cabriolet last week on eBay so for now we are down to the original topic which is the K91 True Roadster. Anyway, the floor on this one is very small and is all plastic and goes in with just two screws. They are kind of hard to see but they're on the right where the color changes.

Next thing I did was to pull the door panels off and screw on the inner panels which helps when checking the overall door fit. Here I have them with just tape holding the hinges on. After I did everything I realized that the only way to truly get them right is to permanently install them. The accepted way is to wait until after they are painted before doing that but, I figure I can always mask the hinges easier than I can sand and refit the door after it's painted so, that's the reasoning for my future move towards permanent placement. I guess we'll see if that turns out to be brilliant or stupid.

Here we are with the doors back on and the floor in place. Also, in the back left & right you see my new project's engine getting started. I have a few Alfa Monzas and I am going to build two at the same time again but, more on that later.

Once I started getting the main body on I started to see some issues at the cowl and firewall. There seems to be a rather large gap there. I'm lined up on the side mount but, something's wrong with this picture.

Here is a longer shot of it. Sometimes you can look at something and still not see the problem.

Then I realized that the rear of the body was sitting too low and when I put a screw in the rear body to the frame it brought it up enough that I could finish installing the rest of the body pieces. Notice the difference between the wheel well sanded curve at the top left of the rear tire between the last two pictures. There are also a couple of ribs on top of the firewall that need to be sanded down a bit that will lower the cowl down on the firewall and give it a better fit. That's why you put these things together and take them apart so many times so you can check the fit so the when you're done it should look right.

Ok, ready for some body panels to get screwed on.

Here we are with the fenders on and the hood just sitting there to check the length between the grille and cowl.

Starting to look a little like a car or a mongrel dog, not sure which.

Here's a head on shot, fairly happy with the fit at the front of the fenders as they sit pretty even in the middle.

This shot from the rear shows a gap at the top of the rear fender especially on the left side but that's because a screw goes in the top on the fender at that point and since this is just a mock up I didn't feel like taking the tires and wheels off to put them in.

Two more shots, this one the hood panels are just sitting on there; they didn't really want to sit there they kept sliding off.

A little better angle and with more light. I still have some work to do but, not much left now. I do still need to decide on how much to cut out between the top of the seat rear edge and the convertible boot in order to make a smooth transition between the boot material and the seat leather. Then, it should be time for some paint.

Even though I am also working on the Alfa Monza and soon to be two of them I don't want to start another thread just yet but, I am taking pictures for when I do. I still have to finish this car and there is still plenty to do. Plus, I am going to give a couple of group builds a whirl just for a change and both start next month. Both are airplane builds and after two of these Mercedes I need a change for a bit. Even though I'll be working on a B-24 and a Bf109 I'll still be working on this and the Monza, work space permitting.

[Codger]

I agree Wayne; the trial fitting is a tedious process. You are doing well to address issues as they pop up. Too many guys open the box and squirt paint on the big parts. Only to cray after they don't fit.

Two possible tips that have helped me a lot:

Rather than use kit screws to mount and dismount for testing I make my own 'bolts' or 'studs'. I found the screws quickly get sloppy in the holes and hold nothing. Using 2mm threaded rod and nuts, I cut a bit of rod to the length I need for a fastener. Then either tap it in its location on the frame or body (with a drop of CA to secure) or install a nut on one end to make a 'bolt head' (again with a CA drop) and screw down things like floor boards etc. Much more sturdy and you can hang fenders and such quickly and easily and remove them just the same.

The other helper I use pertains to hood hinges. Instead of melting hinges to the Pocher studs on the hood, I make the hinges easily removable. Shave off all the plastic studs, then drill the hood panels and piano hinges in 4 places (2 near the front edge, 2 near the back edge) for 00-90 hex bolts. Now you can nut and bolt the hinge to each hood half. When mock-ups are complete, unbolt and you can paint the hood panels without damage to the chrome on the hinge. You can touch the bolt heads with a dab of hood paint or if you're ambitious, have them chromed.

[larchiefeng]

Thanks for the tips, I like them both. I noticed last night that the screws for the fenders were coming out with a lot of plastic on them and I could see that it wouldn't be long before they wouldn't have anything to bite on. I have plenty of 2mm threaded rod so I know what I'll be making this morning. I will probably also deal with the hood today as well. I still haven't taken care of the one warped side panel yet. The other thing I noticed last night was the inner door panels don't have but 3 screws to hold them on. The top of the door in the curve there's a bit of a gap where everything else seems to be snug. That's either good or bad going forward when the leather goes on. It may be fine and the rest may be too tight but all the way around should be the same so, I need to find a way to fix that. I'll probably just add a piece of styrene on the main panel and drill a hole in the inner panel. The door hinges are something I also want to be able to secure during the mock up and the tape isn't cutting it. So, maybe some form of the 2mm rod, I don't know. Lastly, I don't like the fact that once you spend the time getting the leather nicely on the panel you then have to put screws through it in 3 or 4 places that will show. I need to come up with a way for something that will hide one or two and possibly some kind of clip that goes on the back of the inner panel that will hold it without screws.

So, in addition to the mocking up and panel fit process there's a few more things that need sorting out! You don't get this kind of fun and problem solving with a 1/12, 1/24 Tamiya kit. These kits, as expensive as they are, still give you plenty to think about.

Wayne

[Codger]

The key I've found is to free-up your thinking; think outside the Pocher box.

Screws in the leather? - NEVER! Gaps around door (or anywhere else) perimeters? Use strip or sheet styrene to make new jambs, custom fit to their location. Then after paint, epoxy or gel CA the inner panels to the door outers. Why should they be removable with screws?; doubt you'll be removing them after completion.

Pocher's is not the only way and often not the best way...

[larchiefeng]

Yeah, I agree with that thinking. At a certain point in the build after you have all the basic stuff done and get the point where the end result will not be what you've spent all that time on, you need to throw the box away and go with your gut. I pretty much had decided that CA was going to be the way to go with the doors. I just need to be sure I'm happy with the way they look prior to committing to the more permanent solution. The gaps at the top are more a matter of just pulling it in not that after there is still a gap. The only thing that I still am concerned about with doing the interior is adhering the beading around the edges to cover up the seams where the two pieces of leather meet without making a mess of the trim or the leather. I could use some guidance or tips on how to do that. Also, the dash has a lot areas that have leather and almost every one I see has those rough edges around all the small insert pieces that just makes it look somewhat unfinished and not very precise. Some of that could be the thickness of the leather too. I have to figure out how to clean that up too. So, any suggestions or ideas on that will be much appreciated. My little Mercedes may not be on quite the level of Codger and Roy's but everything I do on this one will be transferred to the the next Mercedes which will be the body style I really want to go all the way with. It will be pretty ambitious and will require the lessons learned from the Codger school of surgery and a lot of brass fabrication with bucks from Roy's school of scratch building. I'm going to steal... err borrow everything I can to accomplish that build. It will be the Mercedes that Pocher should have made when producing a 1936 540K Special Roadster. Six months ago when I first read David Cox and Marvin Meit's book on advanced techniques for the Mercedes I would have ever attempted something like that. Now with the guys on here and Paul Koo so close I'm ready for the challenge.

My best advice on the Mercedes for the Pocher beginners or Mercedes beginner having built both the K91 & the K74 side by side up to the body is the K91 from this point on is an infinitely better and much easier kit to build. I really haven't had too many fit issues with the K91. The K74 Cabriolet on the other hand has a ton of fit problems that will require the body going on and off a lot and Codgers tip on the 2mm rod will be a must otherwise by the time you get the body fit the screw holes will be completely stripped out so, that is absolutely the first thing you want to do before you even start with the cutting and grinding on the body panels.

Sorry for running on here but, there are just so many things that come up and aren't on any DVD and certainly not on the Pocher exploded parts sheets that passes for instructions. Time to get to work and stop talking.

Wayne

[Codger]

You are right about fearing the attachment of piping to the seat seams. I too worry about that. I've been told the key is patience and the adhesive. The smallest amount of CA, applied with like a pin and small increments at a time. Marvin says Bondini CA will not blush through the leather - from the back side- nor will Locktite Super Gel which I've used on my rear seat. However I fear any of them, applies on the front side for the piping - well you've got to be careful. Many hours work and expensive leather can be ruined with an errant drop.

The real guy to talk to is Larry Waters, known as 'Foxfriend' here. Larry is an expert 1:1 upholsterer and his Sedanca interior is to die for. A most skilled and helpful fellow. As is Mr Roy, whose Aston and Rolls leather jobs are beautiful.

[foxfriend]

I see my name has been mentioned by Codger, and such nice compliments, for which I am most grateful.

Anyhow, on the subject of adhesives. I do not use CA on any leather or trim, I always use contact adhesive as this does not bleed through the leather, and if you make a mistake it is a lot easier to remove the offending piece and start again.

Hope this helps.

Larry.

[roymattblack]

I see my name is here too...

Also many thanks for thinking my stuff is nice.

I will use CA gel on 'hidden parts of leather, but the vast majority of mine is fixed with Gorilla or Mammoth D/S tape.

Awesome stuff - zero mess.

Roy.

[larchiefeng]

Thanks guys I appreciate the information on the adhesives for the leather interior. I had a doctor appointment yesterday so while I was down in civilization off the mountain I went to the store and found some Gorilla Glue but I didn't find the contact cement I was looking for. I'm going to experiment on some scrap plastic with each of the types of glue to see which does what where and the effect it has on the leather. I have a piece of red leather from MMC and some new leather I obtained from Mr. Roy and they are slightly different. Of the 3 colors and pieces I got from Roy I will be using the black first on the Monza seat. The leather from Roy is slightly thinner than the MMC piece and there might be a difference so best to check it first on a scrap; once you start on the seats it's not going to be coming off very easy. No pictures right now as the bench is covered in red Alfas and I need to finish what I started with those. I have one in a jig and the other scattered around it.

Let me take a quick minute to talk about the jig. I built one a while back for the Alfa and when I started the Mercedes I realized that it doesn't fit in this jig. So, I just went ahead and built the Merc without it. Well now I have the Alfa back out and I see a couple of things I don't like about it so I ordered some jig hardware and I am going to modify, read rebuild it, so it is adjustable 3 ways and will fit all the Pocher cars. This way I can use it for any of them with a twist of a knob. I am also looking at a total redesigned version but that's something I will look at while I change this one. It will be fun to get back to the wood shop and whip something up for a change. When I get the jig hardware I'll post a few pictures.

I'm taking pictures of the Alfa's for the thread when I start it. I also picked up some paint for each Alfa and I need to test spray the colors on the red plastic to see which red and which maroon I'm going with. Lots of action going on, on a lot of different stuff and when I get it all sorted out I will post it all.

[Mpfiend]

Hi Wayne,

I'm looking forward to reading your updates.

ATB

Keith

[larchiefeng]

Today I've finally been able to get back to the roadster. I've been splitting time on three other builds along with this one. I have gone about as far as I can with test fitting and mocking up the body and checking and adjusting the panel fit. Having worked on the Cabriolet and puttering around with the K82 roadster I can tell you that this kit is by far the easiest and best fitting of all the Mercedes kits. I would guess that this is a by product of this kit being one of the last produced and for some reason the quality control was much improved over the others. The other reason is also that this body is different than the others so, the molds were new and the parts came out a bit more crisp. Don't get me wrong here, there is still work to do but, just not as much and of course all the running gear under the body is the same as the older kits. Anyway, here are some final pictures with all the panels fit together with masking tape and the body screwed onto the frame. Up next will be to disassemble everything and prep the body for primer and paint. And, make the modification to the seat in order to make the leather on the seat go in better and the gabardine of the tonneau cover disappear behind it without a seam that needs to be somehow joined between the leather and the gabardine. Speaking of the gabardine, I did make it to the store and I'm pretty sure which gabardine it is but I was unable to hang around to verify it. As I was pulling the bolts of fabric out to check, my cane fell over and the head broke off and I was left with a jagged wood stick in my hand so, I left. I believe it is a twill weave gabardine that is a textured polyester blend which is used for making raincoats.

Here are four pictures of the final mock up.

Before I take this apart I need to double check if I have taped the side panel too far forward because there is a small gap at the bottom where the panel meets the cowl.

This panel actually fits better than it looks, the side is not taped in the perfect position and it is slightly warped. I need to correct the warpage and get the panel primed and the hinges attached before completely taking everything apart. Since the fit issue is from the top connection and where the side panel lines up at the bottom I'll probably connect each side panel to each top panel and then tape the top panels together and do a final check in order to make sure I have no gaps at the front and back on the bottom. If I do then I can add some styrene strip to close the gap. And by leaving the top center hinge not installed it will be easier to work with each side.

Next, I'm going to cut the channel on the back seat and finish the hood and then tear it all apart.

[Mpfiend]

Very nice Wayne,

I am not looking forward to fitting the body to my build, still that is a very long way off yet.

Best Regards

Keith.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Mpfiend

[Codger]

Tasty looking mock-up!

Consider this to make hinging easier. On the hood sides, replace the small Pocher hinges with a full length piano hinge (doll house supply). Remove the wire and attach the hinge body to the hood(s). You can then paint and finish the panels and they will have perfect alignment. Just reinsert the wire. You can do the same for the center hinge; remove wire, mask the chrome outer and paint the panels.

[larchiefeng]

Thanks Codger, I am at the doctors office now and I can swing by Hobby lobby and see if they have anything like that since my regular hobby shop is closed today. I had already decided to go ahead and install the hinges permanently and mask them off because you can only go so far with masking tape.

Thanks Keith, I see you are moving right along with yours as well. There are a lot of adjustments that are needed on your body and fenders and I almost think that it might not be a bad idea to do some mock up now before you get all your nicely finished pieces in place. I think all you really need in place is the radiator, cowl, interior floor pan in place and you could get most of the messier sanding and cutting out of the way before all of that stuff gets in the way and could get damaged. I know with this one, having everything in place makes it hard to work with without damaging something. Anyway it's a thought.

[Brandy]

Nice work indeed!

Interesting that you state this was "one of the last produced" as I noticed recently that Pocher kits are available on Airfix's website and they are bringing out their first motorcycle very soon, a Ducati if I remember correctly....

Ian

[roymattblack]

Interesting that you state this was "one of the last produced" as I noticed recently that Pocher kits are available on Airfix's website and they are bringing out their first motorcycle very soon, a Ducati if I remember correctly....

Ian

Yes, Pocher are indeed back again but none of the old 'classics' are being made any longer.

All of these kits really are 'rare' now - hence the price they go for, and hence people (like me) having built a few, with the others stashed away to build later.

It won't be too many years before there really are no kits left.

The new Lambo is nice - I built one last year - the build thread is here somewhere - and the Ducati is on pre-order.

You can't beat these oldies though, and this one is looking to be fantastic.

Roy.

Edited July 14, 2015 by roymattblack

[Mpfiend]

Thanks Keith, I see you are moving right along with yours as well. There are a lot of adjustments that are needed on your body and fenders and I almost think that it might not be a bad idea to do some mock up now before you get all your nicely finished pieces in place. I think all you really need in place is the radiator, cowl, interior floor pan in place and you could get most of the messier sanding and cutting out of the way before all of that stuff gets in the way and could get damaged. I know with this one, having everything in place makes it hard to work with without damaging something. Anyway it's a thought.

Wayne, I was just thinking this myself yesterday after looking at the Body fitting sections of the Paul Koo DVD.

It seems that to get the floor section to fit it may be necessary to bend one of the cross members of the chassis to a very odd angle. which I thought a little odd so I need to investigate further before I start painting the chassis.

Does the Plastic that the Pocher kits are made of respond well to hot water? as I see that my fire wall is slightly distorted and I need to open up the bottom part so that the mounting holes line up.

Thanks for the advice.

Best Regards

Keith