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"India white" SEAC roundels on miscellaneous types


KRK4m

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I would like to make my SEAC collection something more than standard set of Hurricane, Thunderbolt, Spitfire, Mohawk, Vengeance, Blenheim, Beaufighter, Mosquito, Auster, Sentinel, Lysander, Harvard, Expeditor, Dakota, Swordfish, Catalina, Sunderland, Walrus, Warwick, Wellington, Mitchell and Liberator.

So I'm looking for pictures of other SEAC aircraft wearing "India White" roundels. Among "suspected" types there are: Anson, Oxford, Hudson, Tiger Moth, Proctor and (maybe) Master and Magister.

All other RAF & FAA types used in this theatre (Audax, Hart, Hind, Wapiti, Valentia, Vildebeest, Buffalo, Beaufort, Albacore, Fulmar, Singapore) have been probably retired before the small roundel with pale blue centre was introduced.

Or maybe I'm wrong?

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A few I can thik of off the top of my head.

Fox Moth

large.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs
ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE FAR EAST, 1939-1945. © IWM (K 8779)IWM Non Commercial Licence

Cornell

Fairchild-Cornell-01.jpg

Tiger Moth - there is a camouflaged, SEAC roundeled Tiger Moth in Stuart Mckay's book for Midland

DC-4/Skymaster - pic of one (KL978) in SEAC roundels in Air Arsenal North America (Butler)

Fairchild Argus as above

NA Mustang iV

Lockheed 12 - some were impressed in India, and i'm sure I've seen a pic of one in SEAC roundels

Curtis Wright CW-22 - ex Burma Voulnteer Air Force

Edited by Dave Fleming
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1 The Eastern Fleet OS2U I asked about recently may have been painted in South Africa.

2 The Fox Moth would have been I.A.F.

3 R.A.A.F. Mustangs had real white centres., not " India white'. If the ones at Morotai ever came under S.E.A.C. rather than S.W.P.A. it could only be briefly.

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A few I can thik of off the top of my head.

Fox Moth, Cornell,

Tiger Moth - there is a camouflaged, SEAC roundeled Tiger Moth in Stuart Mckay's book for Midland

DC-4/Skymaster - pic of one (KL978) in SEAC roundels in Air Arsenal North America (Butler)

Fairchild Argus as above

NA Mustang iV

Lockheed 12 - some were impressed in India, and i'm sure I've seen a pic of one in SEAC roundels

Curtis Wright CW-22 - ex Burma Voulnteer Air Force

Thanks for the Fox Moth (though no serial is visible) and Cornell.

The L12, Skymaster and Argus should be included in my list of course - I simply forgot about them.

CW-22 is a VERY interesting addition - never heard about their use under the British label.

Mustang IV - do you mean RAF or RAAF serials/roundels?

But the most interesting is Tiger Moth. Never seen the book you mentioned :( Is there any scan of tis photo available within the web?

How about RAAF P51 Mustangs?

Check this page of photos...

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ot/raaf_10.shtml

All the planes pictured there wear RAAF roundels (most of hem RAAF serials too), which make them beyond my interest.

1 The Eastern Fleet OS2U I asked about recently may have been painted in South Africa.

The list of naval planes with SEAC roundels should also include Swordfish, Martlet/Wildcat, Avenger, Hellcat, Corsair, Barracuda, Firefly, Seafire, Sea Otter and perhaps several others.

Nevertheless my main interest remains the RAF SEAC maritime recce, transport, liaison and trainer types, namely: Hudson, Anson, Oxford, Tiger Moth and Master (radial-engined preferably, if any were flown there).

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There were a number of RAF Mustangs in India (with the two blue roundel) albeit they didn't see combat. (Examples KM735 and KM545)

The Fox Moths were used by either the Bengal Communications Flight (which became 3TAF Communications flight) (MA954, MA955) or just 'RAF' (MA959) but I don't have a note of any of them being used by an Indian unit (Which were SEAC in this context anyway).

The CW22 was obtained in Burma for use by the Burma Volunteer Air Force, then joined the Dum Dum Communications flight at a later date. there is a photo of it in an old Aeromilitaria

Bit about the BVAF here:

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-eastasia/burma/burma-bvaf-home.htm


KM735 (The original is 13mb!)

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/File:Esposito_3.jpg

Edited by Dave Fleming
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There were a number of RAF Mustangs in India (with the two blue roundel) albeit they didn't see combat. (Examples KM735 and KM545)

KM735 (The original is 13mb!)

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/File:Esposito_3.jpg

Marvellous! Never seen this before. Unfortunately they weren't used operationally there.

That's also the case with Tempest Mk.II - rumours say about dozens of them shipped to Karachi, where they received SEAC roundels.

I've even seen the photos of Hercules-powered Halifax with SEAC roundels, although also not being a "true" bomber there. Pity :(

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The list of naval planes with SEAC roundels should also include Swordfish, Martlet/Wildcat, Avenger, Hellcat, Corsair, Barracuda, Firefly, Seafire, Sea Otter and perhaps several others.

Strictly speaking, the FAA aircraft were in East Indies Fleet markings. EIF markings had true white centres, not India White.

I have seen a photo of a Fulmar in EIF markings in an old Flypast but unfortunately it was too fuzzy to make out any other details.

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There were a number of RAF Mustangs in India (with the two blue roundel) albeit they didn't see combat. (Examples KM735 and KM545)

KM735 (The original is 13mb!)

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/File:Esposito_3.jpg

Interesting to note that KM735 is fitted with the zero length rocket stubs on the wings and seems to have the square tipped un-cuffed Hamilton prop. Seems to be similar, if not identical, to the aircraft supplied to the RNZAF towards the end of the war which they put straight into storage.

Mark.

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I've even seen the photos of Hercules-powered Halifax with SEAC roundels, although also not being a "true" bomber there. Pity :(

The RCM role was quite interesting though, Merrick's book on the Halifax has a few interesting photos of them (and 298 Squadron).

Actually mention of Halifaxes brings up a couple of other possibilities although ones I've never seen - Hamilcar, Horsa and Hadrian Gliders, used by 1577 flight. They may have retained their European roundels. My father-in-law served in India in WW2 and he says that when on leave/R&R in parts far from the front line, you would not have thought there was a war on.

Mention of 1577 also brings up the Lancasters they had on trials - JA903 and JA904. I suspect JOhn's photo here shows JA904 with a SEAC roundel! http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234974672-lancaster-photo-help/)

York - although these look like Blue white

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/NewsStoriesF/RoundelRoundup/Roundels65.jpg

Edited by Dave Fleming
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In all of the colour lists I've looked through, plus a series of signals about the transition from red/white/blue, through blue/white to blue/light blue roundels, "Indian White" is never mentioned, just White.

During the Pacific war, factories, to produce paint, were set up in India, so maybe "white from India" became India White.

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Dave - you're Great. EM918 is what I've been looking for :) DE/DG/Trainer Yellow I suppose, Isn't it?

Edgar - as you stated properly, "India White" wasn't the official name. So let's talk about the light blue-centred roundels :)

Edited by KRK4m
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Actually mention of Halifaxes brings up a couple of other possibilities although ones I've never seen - Hamilcar, Horsa and Hadrian Gliders, used by 1577 flight. They may have retained their European roundels. My father-in-law served in India in WW2 and he says that when on leave/R&R in parts far from the front line, you would not have thought there was a war on.

Horsa Mk.II RZ306 carried SEAC roundels and had it's upper surfaces painted silver to reflect the sun and try to keep the interior cool. The Horsa's in Palestine in 1946 were also silver topped mostly but had the standard roundels.

FWIW A few Horsa's out in the Med also carried RAF desert camo.
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Horsa Mk.II RZ306 carried SEAC roundels and had it's upper surfaces painted silver to reflect the sun and try to keep the interior cool. The Horsa's in Palestine in 1946 were also silver topped mostly but had the standard roundels.
FWIW A few Horsa's out in the Med also carried RAF desert camo.

Thanks, interesting - any sources for pictures?

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On 2/16/2015 at 11:17 PM, Dave Fleming said:

Thanks, interesting - any sources for pictures?

One of the "desert" Horsas is pictured somewhere on Sicily

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/6064351941/

Cheers

Michael

Edited by KRK4m
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And what about the SEAC Hudsons? The well-known painting of No.353 Sq. machine in November 1942

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/lockheed-hudson-mkiii-353-squadron-raf-v9176-off-cheduba-i15516

shows her in TSS (or is it TLS?) over Sky Blue scheme with small-diameter yellow-blue-white roundels.

On the photo taken a year-or-so later (after August 1943 at least)

http://www.rafweb.org/images/353%20Sqn%20Palam.jpg

the undersides are surely lighter than Azure Blue and darker than White. Can they really be Sky Blue or are they just the standard Sky Type S?

Another Hudson squadron performing coastal patrols in SE Asia in 1943 (so after the introduction of blue/blue roundels) was No.217. Are there any photos known of these aircraft?

Edited by KRK4m
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One of the "desert" Horsas is pictured somewhere on Sicily https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/6064351941/

I think that's one of the ones that were towed out on Operation Molten and left parked up. That said, the doped joints make me suspicious it's been assembled from parts shipped there and not flow. The yellow leading edge is unusual too its the only Horsa I've ever seen sporting them.

There were quite a few desert ones used during Operation Dragoon flown from Tarquina as well. There are several shots in the IWM collection that are black and white but you can tell by examining them which are painted desert. The famous aerial shot of them all lined up on the runway at Hurn to fly to North Africa you can spot the desert ones mixed in with the European theatre cammo.

As for the SEAC one - https://www.flickr.com/photos/14415433@N02/7420374374/sizes/l

*Somewhere* I have a better picture of that same glider where you can make out the serial and the definitive silver top. There are some good shots of SEAC Halifaxes in that photo album too.

Edited by OneEighthBit
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That SEAC Horsa is really interesting, cheers for posting it.

I`ve never seen an overall silver Palestinian based one either,......apart from in model form.

Tony

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That SEAC Horsa is really interesting, cheers for posting it.

I`ve never seen an overall silver Palestinian based one either,......apart from in model form.

Tony

Found a better picture of RZ306 in India with the SEAC markings. Also attached the silver Horsa TL472 in the process of being painted.

It seems that anywhere "warm" that post VE day the standard practice was to paint the tops of the gliders silver to try and keep the internal temps down. As one old pilot told me you still sometimes had to keep the doors open and fly in just your shorts it was so warm.

Out in Palestine the Mk.II's had silver tops and there were some silver tops in use at 1PTS at Hereford post-war. I'm not sure if these had been painted silver with a view to them being ear marked for dispatchoverseas or it was some sort of "half-measure" towards the post-war scheme that training aircraft should be silver.

RZ306_India45_zpsffe915yf.jpg

Silver-Horsa-being-painted_zpsirkn1gxd.j

1GTS_Upper_Heyford_zpsognrrbfk.jpg

Edited by OneEighthBit
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"D" roundels as well!

Many thanks for sharing these!

Now to find some pics of Hadrians in SEAC........ :winkgrin:

They had serials under the wings too. A Very small number of Horsa's on Operation Varsity, 24th March '45, even had C roundels on the tops of the wing. :)

I'll confess, I've never seen a SEAC roundel on a Hadrian - but then again, I'm never come across that many pictures of them out in the far east. The *one* picture I saw was in a collection that came up on eBay that I missed. It was them all piled up after being wiped out in a storm but they all had C.1 roundels on the fuselage.

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I have a magazine clipping filed away somewhere depicting a SEAC marked Hadrian, I`ll try and dig it out and scan it. It is Olive Drab and Neural Grey with two toned blue roundels.

I`d love to see a Hadrian with C Type roundels above the wings! I know that they were used by SAS Patrols and Jedburgh units in France rather than air dropping jeeps from a Halifax and some Hadrian`s even went to Arnhem, most towed by Albemarle`s. Any photo of an RAF marked Hadrian from 1944 onwards would be great to see,

Cheers

Tony

PS- Just noticed the extra Horsa photos,.....thanks very much for posting those!

Edited by tonyot
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Hiya Folks,

Further to my last,......here is the Hadrian marked with SEAC roundels;

DSCF2809_zpsjbzonvi7.jpg

and a closer view;

DSCF2810_zpssx3feiun.jpg

I thought that I had a better photo too but this one does still show RAF SEAC roundels applied and it is probably seen during an exercise in India during training for the invasion of Malaya?

I`ll keep looking for another one.

Back onto Horsa`s,....I did have a photo of one (along with its Halifax tug) wearing post war Training Command markings with the four letter code in black upon two yellow blocks but I cannot find it,........has anybody else got one?

Cheers

Tony

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Point of reference - I believe the colours of the Hadrians in India was the stock colours as shipped from the US so not the RAF colours. They were transferred mostly from USAAF stocks already in the far east and just had the roundels over painted. "Voodoo" is a good reference for this.

I'm also not sure if SEAC Hadrians carried RAF Serials or retained the US ones on the tail. Almost off of the ones used in the UK carried only the US serial (even though they had an RAF one) so I don't know if they same practice was carried over in India?

BTW, it was some of the Horsa's that had the C roundels on them for Varisity. Only a few mind. I'm going on the theory that it was new ones assembled in early '45 after the change in roundel happened. The others all have the standard B roundel as I assumed they were never updated (or lasted long enough).

Tony, you're referring to the FER codes from 21 HGCU. Can't place my photos to hand but basically all the models that Raul Hubrisko made are based on photos from my collection. I can't recall which FER machine it was he modelled in the end but I've got pics of a few of them.

(going a bit off topic!)

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