Democracy: We Deliver (1/72 Hasegawa Liberator VI)

[Procopius]

I think I used RAF dark green on one of my false starts (might have been a razorback p-47?) for a U.S. aircraft needing the dark dull green. Looked close enough to these (not very) discerning eyes.

That's all the validation I need!

[mrp]

Thought that I would contribute the following shots taken of the Liberator KN820 at the Canada Air and Space Museum in Ottawa Canada.

There is actually a number of greens used. The front cockpit area is certainly darker than the rear section of the aircraft.

MRP

[Steve27752]

If the nose wheel is hollow, why not put weights inside it?

[Procopius]

Thought that I would contribute the following shots taken of the Liberator KN820 at the Canada Air and Space Museum in Ottawa Canada.

There is actually a number of greens used. The front cockpit area is certainly darker than the rear section of the aircraft.

Thanks! I believe KN820 is a Ford-built B-24L from the Willow Run plant, versus the Dallas-built B-24J I'm working on, but the shots of the IP alone are incredibly useful. Should I skip the decal and try and paint the IP? It looks like something like IJA or IJN dark green might serve for it. Also, is that after green colour Bronze Green?

Interestingly, the Pima Museum in Tucson (where I will be at the end of March, alas too late) has KH304, a near-sister of KH283. The interior colour aft is hard to make out in most shots, but her wheel wells appear to have been painted, and not with the underside Neutral Gray. Ugh, the plot thickens.

If the nose wheel is hollow, why not put weights inside it?

Unfortunately, I don't believe it is: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10070130z3/70/3

[Tomoshenko]

Just caught up. Good start, interesting subject. Nose weights - you'd think a lot more manufacturers would supply pre-moulded weights with the kit. Given the price of the shake 'n' bake kits and the engineering that goes into them, and some of the upmarket resin kits with etch and masks etc. I reckon it's high time they started including weights too. I mean modelling has moved on light years since I was a kid, but we still have to faff around with bits of metal and stuff.

[Procopius]

Just caught up. Good start, interesting subject. Nose weights - you'd think a lot more manufacturers would supply pre-moulded weights with the kit. Given the price of the shake 'n' bake kits and the engineering that goes into them, and some of the upmarket resin kits with etch and masks etc. I reckon it's high time they started including weights too. I mean modelling has moved on light years since I was a kid, but we still have to faff around with bits of metal and stuff.

It's this sort of slippery-slopism that leads to glue and paint and, god help us, pre-cut masks coming with the kit, and then where are we, gentlemen and ladies? (Someone in the back, tentatively: Corgi diecasts, sir?) No, ANARCHY!

Of course, I agree with you completely, in actuality. Noseweight is a huge pain in the rump, especially since one apparently needs to have a chemistry background to not cause the model to subsequently erupt like Krakatoa, spewing lead shot everywhere like a...like a...like those things that spew lead shot normally!

However, I did get to use bolt cutters for this build as a result, so that was kind of cool. I felt very manly, chopping a defenseless and unresisting zinc cylinder into thirds.

[mrp]

Yes, it is Willow Run built. It is interesting to see as illustrated by these shots, the different variations in the interior paint application.

These shots illustrate the wide variations in colour from behind the bomb bay back to the tail. The bomb bay is clearly in the dark green colour, which the front of the aircraft is. In these shots, we can see bare metal, yellow zinc cromate, dark green and a lighter green( almost like Tamiya 71).

Most of the variation in paint is probably original, as the Indian's didnt appear to have changed much in the airframe. ( I think Willow Run shipped parts to other production plants as well as producing complete aircraft.

I haven't seen inside the RAF Museum's Liberator at Hendon, but I would assume it is in similar shape to this one. Kermit Weeks in Florida has another of the Indian B-24's and it interior is also a jumble of colours.. The Collings Foundation B-24 has been totally restored, so is representative only.

MRP

MRP

Edited January 26, 2015 by mrp

[Procopius]

Whoa, you aren't kidding, those colors are all over the place. Is that tarp or cloth door covering present in the cockpit? That might help to conceal the lack of a door there on the Hase kit.

[mrp]

No, behind the magic door/tarp, is the radio operators section. In the poor shot I have here, you can see that there is no tarp to separate the navigator from the flight deck. It is surprising that Hasegawa got it wrong. When I built the Hasegawa kit, I just left it the way its was and crammed the space with lead.

MRP

Edited January 26, 2015 by mrp

[Pete in Lincs]

PC. with the nice chaps at Airfix.

Those props they're sending to you,

They'll be made of depleted uranium.

That might do it!

[Tempestwulf]

I use Gunze lacquers and I have a color that would suit for the cockpit green. But for the life of me I can't think of it as I'm at work. I used it for the nose of a Mustang and was great. Will advise tonight.

[AntPhillips]

I've used car wheel balance weights as nose weights, they usually come in nice convenient 5 & 10 gramme sizes and can even have a self adhesive backing, I was cheeky enough to ask my local tyre fitter if he had any spare last time I was in there, and was given a small handful of new and used ones, the fact that I was paying for 3 new tyres probably helped.

[Sten Ekedahl]

... the fact that I was paying for 3 new tyres probably helped.

Reliant owner?

[caszerino]

It's probably not helpful since I flew on All-American, which was a USAAF B-24J, and not RAF, but the interior (I was never in the cockpit) was definitely green, on the olive drab side. Whether this was accurate for wartime I have no idea ("AA" was the only fully-restored B-24 in the world at the time - early 90s - and may still be). I have read a few things about the entire interior being sprayed zinc chromate primer at the plant. MRP's interior shots are fantastic, but the one I was on was definitely not "emerald green" like that. Not trying to throw a wrench in the works, just sharing my own B-24 experience!

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread for a number of reasons. First, I have two (or maybe three, I'm not actually sure) 1/72 B-24Ds that will need to get built as Ploesti raiders (two from the first, one from the second raid). They're the Academy kits, so it won't be quite the same, but I'm sure this will help immensely.

And second ... I had the nose of a Bf-110E full of lead fishing weights (yes, I know it's supposed to be a tail-sitter, I just wasn't thinking AT ALL). Glued in with CA. Now I'm waiting for it to explode, and given my luck it'll happen right after I paint it. Having said that, I did rip most of the weights out with needlenose pliers but there's one .94g weight that I will never be able to remove. It's just in there too far and it doesn't cause the model to sit incorrectly. Bloody hell, I wish I'd known about this before!

[Navy Bird]

I modelled my PB4Y-1 after the B-24D "Strawberry Bitch" at the USAF museum, which is (or was at the time) still in its original paint. However, I made a mistake thinking that the forward areas and bomb bay were all Interior Green, instead of the mixture of colours that it actually is. Oops. In that plane you can find Dark Dull Green (instrument panel), natural metal (cockpit side panels), and Interior Green (seats, bomb bay, and radio engineer's area), The waist gunners area on that plane is Yellow Zinc Chromate - I got that part right!

Cheers,

Bill

[Procopius]

I use Gunze lacquers and I have a color that would suit for the cockpit green. But for the life of me I can't think of it as I'm at work. I used it for the nose of a Mustang and was great. Will advise tonight.

That will be helpful for future(?) Liberator and other American-built aircraft builds, to be sure, though I stick to their acrylics.

It's probably not helpful since I flew on All-American, which was a USAAF B-24J, and not RAF, but the interior (I was never in the cockpit) was definitely green, on the olive drab side. Whether this was accurate for wartime I have no idea ("AA" was the only fully-restored B-24 in the world at the time - early 90s - and may still be). I have read a few things about the entire interior being sprayed zinc chromate primer at the plant. MRP's interior shots are fantastic, but the one I was on was definitely not "emerald green" like that. Not trying to throw a wrench in the works, just sharing my own B-24 experience!

I believe she still is; I was aboard her two or three years ago, but of course I took no useful photos whatsover.

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread for a number of reasons. First, I have two (or maybe three, I'm not actually sure) 1/72 B-24Ds that will need to get built as Ploesti raiders (two from the first, one from the second raid). They're the Academy kits, so it won't be quite the same, but I'm sure this will help immensely.

If for no other reason than you'll get a good dose of schadenfreude.

And second ... I had the nose of a Bf-110E full of lead fishing weights (yes, I know it's supposed to be a tail-sitter, I just wasn't thinking AT ALL). Glued in with CA. Now I'm waiting for it to explode, and given my luck it'll happen right after I paint it. Having said that, I did rip most of the weights out with needlenose pliers but there's one .94g weight that I will never be able to remove. It's just in there too far and it doesn't cause the model to sit incorrectly. Bloody hell, I wish I'd known about this before!

Too late! You should probably call the bomb squad and seal off that portion of your house.

I've used car wheel balance weights as nose weights, they usually come in nice convenient 5 & 10 gramme sizes and can even have a self adhesive backing, I was cheeky enough to ask my local tyre fitter if he had any spare last time I was in there, and was given a small handful of new and used ones, the fact that I was paying for 3 new tyres probably helped.

I do live near a NAPA store, but of course by the time I get home, they've closed.

Okay, so here's where we are. The cockpit interior is currently painted Medium Green. I used some of my other greens on a piece of card, which I'm not very good at photographing:

Aside from confirming my suspicions that something is seriously wrong with my Testors RAF Dark Green, I'm not sure my cell camera+weak photography chops are sufficient to allow you to weigh in. But I'm thinking I may use the USAF Dark Green, because it applies well and is notably darker.

I'm a little exhausted today, back at work, working on a very on-the-fly social media plan for when I'm in Houston, and trying to run more, before I become Porkopius. Today, after doing four miles (3 in 20 minutes, two minutes break -- disgraceful!-- then one in seven), I checked to see if I could sprint at 12 MPH for a half minute and if it would hurt. Yes and yes.

At any rate, I'm feeling very bewildered and frustrated by the panoply of interior colours on this build, never a favorite part of assembly for me. I've gone out on a limb and opted to use XF-71 Japanese Interior Green on the wing wheel wells, based off this photo and others. I'm hoping with an ink wash this might somewhat reflect the color we see.

I'm just confused and frustrated. EDIT: And repeating myself! I suppose I should pop out the waist mounts and then spray ZC yellow in there too.

[caszerino]

I believe she still is; I was aboard her two or three years ago, but of course I took no useful photos whatsover.

...

If for no other reason than you'll get a good dose of schadenfreude.

...

Too late! You should probably call the bomb squad and seal off that portion of your house.

Bit of a shame nobody's managed to fully restore another B-24 (particularly a D) in the last 20+ years. I haven't been to an air show in forever, but the next static display I am gonna do my best to fill up all 128GB of my phone with photos.

Schadenfreude is about my only remaining pleasure. Well, it was, then I started modelling again, and now I see how well the two compliment each other!

I'm secretly looking forward to seeing the nose blow off this Bf-110 now. Not because I hate the model, I spent enough bloody time on it (and I'm not done yet!). Just ... because explosions are cool. And it will make me laugh. And with a bit of luck I can just glue the 110D nose on afterward.

[John Laidlaw]

At any rate, I'm feeling very bewildered and frustrated by the panoply of interior colours on this build, never a favorite part of assembly for me. I've gone out on a limb and opted to use XF-71 Japanese Interior Green on the wing wheel wells, based off this photo and others. I'm hoping with an ink wash this might somewhat reflect the color we see.

I'm just confused and frustrated. EDIT: And repeating myself! I suppose I should pop out the waist mounts and then spray ZC yellow in there too.

If I may stick my oar in (once gain)?

As difficult as it may be to accept, you can have no idea what colours were actually used, nor can you match them. What you can do is make the colours look right for the model you've built, and the lighting it'll be seen in. It's interpretation and - gasp - art.

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933931-what-is-the-right-colourdoes-it-realy-matter/

[Navy Bird]

Aside from confirming my suspicions that something is seriously wrong with my Testors RAF Dark Green...

In my humble opinion, there is something seriously wrong with just about every Testors paint colour. For paints that are supposedly matched to standards, they sure don't look much like it.

I won't go into how much I dislike actually using Testors paints, that would be another thread entirely.

Cheers,

Bill

[John Laidlaw]

In my humble opinion, there is something seriously wrong with just about every Testors paint colour. For paints that are supposedly matched to standards, they sure don't look much like it.

With the possible exception of Aircraft Grey/Green in their acrylic range. Seems to have the correct hue and tone.

[Procopius]

In my humble opinion, there is something seriously wrong with just about every Testors paint colour. For paints that are supposedly matched to standards, they sure don't look much like it.

I won't go into how much I dislike actually using Testors paints, that would be another thread entirely.

I'd be interested in reading it, if you even decide to pen it. For me the advantage is that they're easy to get -- the only airbrushable acrylics I can drive over to the store and buy. Also, my poor colour perception makes it hard for me to adjudge when things are wrong.

[caszerino]

Are Tamiya paints not available in your area or is it a situation of you wanting to mix the colors to get closer to the "appropriate" shades and hues? (Or thin them out for the airbrush?) I'm just curious. I generally use Vallejo Model Air through the airbrush so far, but I'm just getting started. VMA is useless with a hairy stick.

[Procopius]

Are Tamiya paints not available in your area or is it a situation of you wanting to mix the colors to get closer to the "appropriate" shades and hues? (Or thin them out for the airbrush?) I'm just curious. I generally use Vallejo Model Air through the airbrush so far, but I'm just getting started. VMA is useless with a hairy stick.

I have a fair number of paints from all over: AKAN, Tamiya, Gunze acrylic, Gunze lacquer (purchased in error, too tender-hearted to return it), Vallejo Model Air, Lifecolor, Xtracrylics, Humbrol Acrylics, and Alclad. The only ones sold near me are Testors Modelmasters at a localish Hobby Lobby following the close of a large hobby shop about forty minutes from me.

In any case. upon sober reflection, I decided to paint the after section Zinc Chromide Yellow. The aft interior on the Pima aircraft seems to be this color. I also decided to try salt weathering for the first time, because (imagine me weakly throwing my hands up in the air here) why the hell not?

I feel like it turned out okay, but it doesn't really blow my mind as a weathering technique, and I can't see myself bothering with it very often. I just don't do that level of detail, really.

Haven't repainted the cockpit area yet; I'm still leaning towards USAF Dark Green. We'll see.

Here's an unglued test fit of the kit so far:

[Stew Dapple]

Looks like a pretty good fit anyway; in that last picture I suddenly got the impression of it waking and stretching, like one of those Ray Harryhausen creatures from the 60's films

As for the interior colours, try to think that you are not being trapped by the impossibility of knowing exactly what the correct colours were for your Lib, but that you are being liberated by it (I think this is what John was referring to above). Just paint the colours suggested by your best interpretation/idea/belief/guess and accept that you will never know for sure if you were right or wrong (but nor will anyone else ).

Cheers,

Stew

[Procopius]

Looks like a pretty good fit anyway; in that last picture I suddenly got the impression of it waking and stretching, like one of those Ray Harryhausen creatures from the 60's films

I love me a good Harryhausen film. There's something deeply appealing about the optimism of people who survived the most destructive war in human history and now want to slay sea beasts with atomic bazookas.

As for the interior colours, try to think that you are not being trapped by the impossibility of knowing exactly what the correct colours were for your Lib, but that you are being liberated by it (I think this is what John was referring to above). Just paint the colours suggested by your best interpretation/idea/belief/guess and accept that you will never know for sure if you were right or wrong (but nor will anyone else ).

Uncertainty torments me, Stew, it drives me nuts! And you forget one of the immutable laws of modelling, to wit that a variable is converted into an antipathetic constant by one's best guess, always. Plus of course I desperately crave all of you's approval. Perhaps if I'd been hugged more or less as a child we wouldn't be in this pickle.