607 County of Durham SQN.

[stevej60]

Hi folks,just thinking ahead to the BoB GB I want to portray a couple of Aircraft that served with my home county squadron,so

need to think about sourcing 1/72 kits and serials,codes etc,there are a couple of sites giving their aircraft and bases during the

battle but any further information,profiles photo,s etc would be greatly appreciated.

regards Steve.

[Graham Boak]

Look in the RAF Museum: AF.F P2617. This served with the squadron in France, and also in the Battle of Britain. It is painted in BoB colours. Before its arrival at the Museum it was regularly displayed as AF.T.

My listing of the squadron's aircraft does not provide any other codes for the BoB period. Serials are not a problem. You might like to contact the squadron's historian David Charles, perhaps via the Usworth Museum, he may have found more information since we last met. Or perhaps the author Robert Dixon. There is a painting showing 607 in action in the BoB but I don't know if it would be of any help.

There are only a limited number of wartime photos of the squadron: any of the BoB period would be most welcome. I'm rather hoping that the new book on Francis Blackadder in France may have previously unpublished ones, but again not the right period.

For 1/72 models, there is the old Airfix Mk.I (metal wing) and a choice of Hasegawa releases, if you can find any. Other kits are Mk.Is with fabric wings or the longer-nosed Mk.IIs.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Graham Boak

[stevej60]

Many thanks Graham.I plan at least one Hurricane for the build so the old Airfix tool will suffice I still think it holds up well and may look at any

Spitfires based locally maybe Acklington and I believe Defiants were based at Catterick just to keep a local slant on things

[ludwig113]

a good book on the history of 607 can be found on ebay etc, called- 607 squadron a shade of blue.

there aren't any profiles but it does contain good info.

if you look at AF-F at Hendon it doesn't have a fin flash, I asked them about it and was told it didn't have one at that period of time.

paul

[Dr Lurve]

Hi Steve

Being a Spennymoor lad and a keen follower of 607 Squadron i'm going to be doing a few Battle of France/Battle of Britain builds myself. Will be following this thread keenly.

There appears to be very few surviving photographs of Hurricanes from the BoB period. The Robert Dixon books have one or two side shots of Blackadder's Hurricane.

If you're interested there is a good book that is now out of print but should still be available called 'Twelve Days in May' by Brian Cull that focuses on the RAF air battle over Northern France in May 1940. There are numerous references to 607 Squadron's involvement and serial numbers and code letter of Hurricanes that they flew. There is also brief reference to 607 Squadron's use of the Gloster Gladiator, which it operated when it first deployed to France in late 1939.

If you're looking for a profile of a 607 Gladiator and a few photographs, the Osprey Aircraft of the Aces book on the Gladiator is a good one to get. The profile shows Gladiator Mk.I AF-O K7995 flown by Flt Lt John Sample, based at Acklington, Northumberland in October 1939. Sample shot down a Dornier Do-18 flying boat off Northumberland in this aircraft.

In relation to other squadrons that operated in the North, 72 Squadron rotated up to Acklington during the BoB and I'm aware that 41 Squadron was based at Catterick during the Luftwaffe raid on the North East and Yorkshire on 15 August 1940. In fact a 41 Squadron pilot brought down a Me Bf-110D over Barnard Castle amongst other victories by Squadrons on that day off the North East coast. 219 squadron with the Bristol Blenheim Mk.If was also scrambled during this raid from Catterick - there are markings for an aircraft from this squadron on the recent Xtradecal RAF Battle of Britain sheet.

Hope that this helps?

Kind regards

Rob

Edited January 17, 2015 by Dr Lurve

[stevej60]

Many thanks Rob especially regarding the Blenhiem I have those decals on what remains of the sheet in the stash and an un-started kit,so that sorts

out another entry I wanted to do four in total so the 72 or 41 sqn aircraft needs researching,do you know anything about the two Hurricanes that collided

over Spennymoor later in the war and were you aware an air launched V1 hit Tudhoe in 1944!

[Graham Boak]

P2617 shouldn't have had a fin flash before the Battle of France, but neither would it have had Sky undersides. It certainly should have had a fin flash in it and after. I have seen a suggestion that it wasn't with the squadron during the BoB, but haven't confirmed that. AFAIK it's certainly the best bet at the moment. I have seen a close-up of a 607 Hurricane, supposedly BoB time, where the winged lion is painted on the white of the fin flash. I think this was in After the Battle Vol.5.

[Dr Lurve]

Hi Steve

I was aware of the two Hurricanes colliding over Tudhoe Colliery. There is a memorial to two two pilots located in York Hill Cemetary near to where the collision occurred. Until his death in the Autumn last year I was very friendly with an old Spitfire pilot from Tudhoe Village who was on leave on the day in question and went to help out those who came to the aid of the pilot that came down on the old pit heap. He was heavily involved in getting the Town Council to purchase and locate the memorial. His family home backed onto the cricket field and it had its windows blown out when the V-1 came down on Tudhoe cricket field.

The following link may be of some interest regarding 41 Squadron.

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/MkI-RAF-41Sqn-EB-L-Shipman.html

Kind regards

Rob

[Dr Lurve]

P2617 shouldn't have had a fin flash before the Battle of France, but neither would it have had Sky undersides. It certainly should have had a fin flash in it and after. I have seen a suggestion that it wasn't with the squadron during the BoB, but haven't confirmed that. AFAIK it's certainly the best bet at the moment. I have seen a close-up of a 607 Hurricane, supposedly BoB time, where the winged lion is painted on the white of the fin flash. I think this was in After the Battle Vol.5.

That is my understanding of P2617 as well Graham. The sky would certainly not have been applied until the return from France.

I think I may have seen the photo of the Hurricane Mk.I that you refer to with the winged lion painted on the white of the fin flash (V6962 AF-H). I'm led to believe that this was from the winter of 1940/41. There is a good layer of snow in the photo!

Regards

Rob

[Graham Boak]

I've only seen the tail - but thought that it was H. I didn't know the serial - thanks for that. I'll add the code to my list of serials. I have it as 1941 but not more precise.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Graham Boak

[ludwig113]

P2617 shouldn't have had a fin flash before the Battle of France, but neither would it have had Sky undersides.

has it been re-painted ? the last time I saw it, it had black and white undersides....

[Graham Boak]

Ah. I honestly don't remember noticing either way. I probably was influenced by it being in the Battle of Britain hall, and my own model of it which does indeed have Sky undersides and fin flashes (for which I may credit Scale Aircraft Modelling). I suppose it is possible that it has been repainted during its time on display but I doubt it. Early photos will tell. I never actually got to see it as AF.T (I took a special trip to Durham in May 1960 only to miss it by one day, annoyingly) but a photo shows it with pale blue undersides then.

The information is still valid: the aircraft would have started with black and white undersides with no fin flash, then the fin flash will have been added on or after 1st May, then the Sky undersides in June. If they were Sky, of course, but that's another argument altogether. And the fin flash size may/will have varied.

I've had a look on the RAFM website, and it shows P2617 with black port undersides, no fin flash, but a propeller off a Mk.II. The text presents two options: that it was flown as F in the Battle of France by J. Kyall, as stated in one of his letters, and that it became F in June after a refit. According to 12 Days in May, P2574 was F, and shot down on 10th May. As P2617 was already with the unit, this re-allocation would seem odd but not impossible. It was however with A Flight which presumably would exclude T. However this date is after the addition of the fin flash, so there's some query still hanging over the scheme and markings as displayed.

There's still the interesting question for the modeller as to which propeller it was delivered with. I suspect Rotol, as it was a Gloster-built aircraft just up the road from Rotol. Presumably it is among those Gloster aircraft still being painted with prewar bright roundel colours.

The RAFM site quotes Sydney Ashurst as 607 Squadron historian. Does anyone know this gentleman?

[ludwig113]

this is my version of it...

[Dave Charles]

Just to clarify

P2617 returned from France in June 1940 and was repaired at Croydon by Rollasons, one of 6 from 607 squadron

It is recorded as being flown by Jim Bazin on at least one occasion from Tangmere

Syd Ashurst is an ex-Vampire pilot from 607 Squadron and has worked alongside myself to gather together all of the squadron history

The winged lion painted on the white of the fin flash (V6962 AF-H). is from the photograph album of P J T Stephenson and was taken at RAF Manston and is therefore a Mk II Hurribomber

The close up picture referred to by Graham I believe was taken in Scotland before the squadron moved to Martlesham Heath and is not the same as V6962

Tjose who are local can view all of the photpgraphs at the mseum in Usworth as they are now part of the museum archives

Regards

David Charles

[Troy Smith]

Ah. I honestly don't remember noticing either way. I probably was influenced by it being in the Battle of Britain hall, and my own model of it which does indeed have Sky undersides and fin flashes (for which I may credit Scale Aircraft Modelling). I suppose it is possible that it has been repainted during its time on display but I doubt it. Early photos will tell. I never actually got to see it as AF.T (I took a special trip to Durham in May 1960 only to miss it by one day, annoyingly) but a photo shows it with pale blue undersides then.

The information is still valid: the aircraft would have started with black and white undersides with no fin flash, then the fin flash will have been added on or after 1st May, then the Sky undersides in June. If they were Sky, of course, but that's another argument altogether. And the fin flash size may/will have varied.

I've had a look on the RAFM website, and it shows P2617 with black port undersides, no fin flash, but a propeller off a Mk.II. The text presents two options: that it was flown as F in the Battle of France by J. Kyall, as stated in one of his letters, and that it became F in June after a refit. According to 12 Days in May, P2574 was F, and shot down on 10th May. As P2617 was already with the unit, this re-allocation would seem odd but not impossible. It was however with A Flight which presumably would exclude T. However this date is after the addition of the fin flash, so there's some query still hanging over the scheme and markings as displayed.

There's still the interesting question for the modeller as to which propeller it was delivered with. I suspect Rotol, as it was a Gloster-built aircraft just up the road from Rotol. Presumably it is among those Gloster aircraft still being painted with prewar bright roundel colours.

The RAFM site quotes Sydney Ashurst as 607 Squadron historian. Does anyone know this gentleman?

P2617 ended up in Training Command in Septermber 1941 and was repainted in DFS during that service, the post war photos show DFS, and the number 14 painted on.

See first image here.

http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=P2617&u=reg

Note, I doubt date correct if repainted for 'Angels One-Five' film as stated below. Though in the descriptions perhaps distemper type paint was used, I can see no reason post war to paint up plane in Training Command markings?

scroll down and various stages of repaints are to be seen with dates. As can be seen, numerous repaints visible, none as displayed now, which I presume was done for display at Hendon.

During the training era a 'bullet' Rotol prop/spinner was fitted (this is not specifically for the MK II, but the actual Hurricane type) and the tailwheel replaced with the jointed type seen on most Mk II's.

These are on P2617 to this day at Hendon.

The scheme chosen is the earliest operational scheme for this aircraft I would presume, so Battle of France markings of April 1940, so no yellow band or fin flash.

This was the factory scheme for these Gloster P**** serialed aircraft

Underside with split black/white wings, fuselage, tailplanes and nose undersides in aluminium dope.

Full history here

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/72-A-1404-Hurricane-1-P2617.pdf

INDIVIDUAL HISTORY

HAWKER HURRICANE MK.1 P2617/8373M

MUSEUM ACCESSION NUMBER 72/A/1404

1938 Ordered by the Air Ministry from Hawker Aircraft Co Ltd, contract No.962371/38/C.23a, and sub-contracted to Gloster Aircraft Co Ltd. Part of a batch of 500 aircraft.

1939/40 Built by Gloster Aircraft Co Ltd at Brockworth near Gloucester as part of batch P2614-P2653. Fitted with 3-blade propeller and 1,280hp Merlin III No.119697. Now carries Merlin 33739. Probably test flown at Glosters.

19 Jan 40 Taken on Air Ministry Charge. To No.20 MU Aston Down (Storage Unit).

24 Feb 40 To No.6 MU Brize Norton (Storage Unit).

14 Apr 40 Allotted to No.615 (County of Surrey) Squadron Royal Auxiliary Air Force, then based in France at Vitry-en-Artois, but temporarily at Abbeville, equipped with Gladiators.

14 Apr 40 Allotted to No.1 Repair and Salvage Unit - same day as No.615 Squadron allocation.

15 Apr 40 Allotted to No.607 (County of Durham) Squadron Royal Auxiliary Air Force at Abbeville, France, equipped with Gladiator aircraft, but in the process of re-equipping with Hurricanes This almost immediate reallocation from No.615 Squadron may perhaps be explained by a possible pooling of aircraft between squadrons. Both were part of the air component of the British Expeditionary Force.

26 Apr 40 No.607 Squadron returned to Vitry-en-Artois (NW of Arras) upon completion of conversion to Hurricanes.

27 Apr 40 No 615 Squadron – and `A' Flight of No.607 Sqn moved south-west to Abbeville to re-equip with Hurricanes (from Gladiators). Letter from Wg Cdr J R Kayll (File, 28/1/76) confirms that P2617 flew with `A' Flight as AF-F. (`B' Flight moved to Abbeville for a similar conversion 9 May 1940). However, Sydney Ashurst, 607 Squadron historian, mentions that AF-F codes were carried by P2574 and P2617 possibly only acquired these codes after its visit to Rollasons for repair the following month.

2

10 May 40 Opening of German Blitzkrieg on France. No.607 Squadron in action immediately against scattered formations of unescorted enemy bombers over the Belgian frontier.

19 May 40 As some 20 German divisions exploited a gap that effectively split the Allied armies in two, No.607 Sqn moved to Norrent Fontes (between Lille and Le Touquet) and operated throughout the day from that base.

20 May 40 As the Germans continued to advance towards Amiens and Arras, Squadron ordered to abandon all Hut equipment etc. and move a short distance NW to Boulougne. P2617 flew at least two sorties this day: Plt Off Humphreys Patrol 06.00 - 07.00. Plt Off Bromley Patrol 10.40 -11.40.

(Recorded in `A' Flight authorisation book, DoRIS Ref.B211). This was the squadrons' last day in France. Since 10 May they had claimed 72 enemy aircraft confirmed and 56 damaged. ‘Twelve Days in May’ (Grub St) p.294 mentions P2617 being flown back to Croydon on this day.

21 May 40 Squadron embarked for Dover.

22 May 40 Squadron re-assembled at Croydon.

29 May 40 Damaged and transferred to Rollasons, Croydon (M Goodman) as Cat B (Beyond Repair on site).

30 May 40 Flown at Croydon by Fg Off Irving - 15-minute afternoon flight -repairs presumably effected quickly.

9 & 10 Jun 40 Flight-tested by Sqn Ldr B A Hitchings (File Letter 16 Nov 1972).

11 Sep 40 Recorded in Log Book as having being flown on operational sortie by Flt Lt James Michael Bazin on operational sortie from RAF Tangmere, West Sussex. (Log Books at Tangmere Aviation Museum - see Flypast Aug 1988, P.30 and February 2000 p.99). His only flight in P2617.

26 Oct 40 Allotted to No.1 (Canadian) Squadron at Prestwick (Later No.401 Squadron). Flew patrols over Clyde Approaches.

20 Nov 40 15.45 Hours (Dusk) Flew patrol sortie, during which oil pressure failure forced the pilot, Fg Off Watson to make a wheels-up forced landing in a field near Saltcoats, Stevenston, Ayrshire having flown from Castletown, the squadron base.

21 Nov 40 To Gloster Aeroplane Co for overhaul and repair after the above accident.

29 Mar 41 To No.15 MU Wroughton.

04 May 41 To No.5 MU Kemble.

31 Jul 41 To No.9 Service Flying Training School, RAF Hullavington.

3

05 Aug 41 Damaged in landing accident - placed on No.43 Group disposal account. Occurred at Babdown relief landing ground. Undercarriage collapsed on landing. Judged to be a structural failure probably due to previous heavy landings, with no blame on the pilot. A/C fitted at this time with Merlin III 144414. See Accident Card in DoRIS, roll MFC 77/16/25.

27 Aug 41 Flown twice on formation flying exercises by Flt Lt N R G Baker. (Data via M Goodman).

03 Sep 41 Flown at No.9 SFTS by J Fryer, who made two further flights in P2617 the following day. (Data via M Goodman).

15 Sep 41 Sgt S S Joseph made his first solo Hurricane flight in P2617. (Data via M Goodman).

24 Sep 41 Damaged when force landed in a field - hitting obstruction of wooden stakes. The pilot was judged to be at fault in showing poor judgement in proceeding with the flight under adverse weather conditions. The incident occurred at 19.45 hours at a location one mile south of Ruddington on the Notts - Loughborough road. See Accident Card in DoRIS, Roll MFC 77/16/25.

01 Oct 41 Repaired in works by de Havillands'.

06 Dec 41 To No.9 SFTS (Service Flying Training School) Hullavington.

31 Dec 41 RAAC (Repaired aircraft awaiting collection).

10 Jan 42 To No.8 Service Flying Training School, Montrose.

09 Mar 42 To No.9 (Pilots) Advanced Flying Unit Hullavington - redesignated from No.9 SFTS 14 Feb 42.

09 May 42 Flying Accident, Cat AC (Repair beyond unit capacity). No accident card on file at RAFM.

14 May 42 Repaired on site by party from Hawker Aircraft Ltd.

23 May 42 To No.9 (P)AFU, Hullavington.

21 Aug 43 To No.22 MU Silloth (Storage Unit).

3 Apr 44 One of several Battle of Britain vintage aircraft selected for preservation by the Air Historical Branch at this time. (PRO File AIR 2/10,184)

14 May 44 Reported as ready for transfer by road to No. 82 MU Lichfield.

06 Aug 44 To No.52 MU RAF Cardiff (Pengam Moors - Packing Depot)

c. Dec 44 In a single case to No.76 MU `For Museum Purposes'. (Packing Depot, RAF Wroughton, Wilts - 52 MU having had to use its museum aircraft Bellman hangar for wood storage from December 1944, though initially allocated to No. 222 MU.

4

1 Feb 46 Recorded at No. 47 MU RAF Sealand.

May 47 Possibly one of the seven aircraft transferred to AHB museum aircraft store at RAF Stanmore Park from Sealand.

Apparently later stored at RAF Stanmore Park to c.1956 and the AHB store at Fulbeck.

Jul 51 Used in the Battle of Britain period film `Angels One Five', starring Jack Hawkins and John Gregson, alongside five borrowed Portuguese Air Force Hurricanes and LF363 from the RAF and PZ865/G-AMAU from Hawkers. Filmed at RAF Kenley, Surrey (doubling as the fictional ‘RAF Neethley) and released in 1952. Taxied in a couple of scenes and may have actually flown (though this is unsubstantiated) - coded in No.56 Squadron markings as US-B/’P2619 or US-P’.

(Photos - After the Battle 30 and The Battle of France Then and Now (Cornwell 2008) p.344, plus Aeroplane May 2012 p.110 and photo in Combat Codes Flintham/Thomas 2003 Appendix F) or, less likely, possibly used in static studio ‘crash’ shots at Elstree.

Six airworthy Hurricanes used, also Science Museum Hurricane L1592 for static shots.

12 Aug 55 Hurricane `R2617' (Probably actually P2617) noted entering Croydon Airport on a sixty-foot trailer. Complete but lacking propeller. In Grey-Green camouflage.

Possibly en-route for filming (see below) - Letter from J J Masterton, Air Pictorial October 1955).

Aug/Sep 55 Loaned by the RAF for the making of `Reach for the Sky', the story of Douglas Bader, starring Kenneth More. Re-serialled T4107/SD-P, SD-W and SD-X. Used for static shots only. Filmed, again, at Kenley. The RAF also loaned a static Mk.I, L1592 again, and airworthy Mk.II LF363.

Sep 55 Displayed on Horseguards Parade London, coded `14' with traces of the `Angels One Five' codes `US' under the paint - delivered direct from Kenley. (See letter from D Shepherd, Air Pictorial Jan 56). See also Control Column Feb 1971 for Photo.

Jul 57 Stored alongside many other Air Historical Branch airframes at No.15 MU Wroughton.

1958 Photographed at RAF Rufforth, Yorkshire standing outside a hangar in good condition but minus outer wings. Code `14' on fuselage. (Air Pictorial, Feb 1959).

1958 To 71 MU Bicester. Overhauled for display purposes with the exhibition flight as the only Mk.I Hurricane owned by the RAF.

Sep 59 Displayed on Horseguards Parade for Battle of Britain week.

5

22 May 60 Displayed at Palace Green, Durham on occasion of presentation and laying up of 607 County of Durham Squadron standard in Durham Cathedral. Photos: Twenty-One Squadrons; AAHS Journal Spring 1961 p.33 - with AF-T codes.

12-18 Sep 60 Again displayed on Horseguards Parade, coded AF-T.

By May 1967 At RAF Henlow for restoration for use in `Battle of Britain' Film. Restored to taxi-able condition. Refurbishment completed 8 February 1968. Photo: Air Pictorial Sep 69 p.32

Early 1968 Used in filming of `Battle of Britain' Film, carrying false serials H3426, H3427 and codes MI-C and MI-S. Apparently off set by April 1968. (See Control Column 1967-8)

14 Jun 68 Displayed at RAF 50th Anniversary Royal Review, Abingdon re-coded as 607 Squadron AF-T. (It had worn these codes originally since 1961 at least.) Colour Photos: Scale Models Dec 73 p.831; Flypast August 2003 p.63. B/W; Flypast Battle of Britain 70th Anniversary p.103.

15 Sep 68 Displayed on Horse Guards Parade, Whitehall as part of RAF 50th Battle of Britain Week celebrations.

1970 Displayed at Wavertree Liverpool together with Spitfire I K9942, another BoB film veteran also now at Hendon. Both aircraft back on charge with 71 MU Bicester Exhibition Flight at this time. Also displayed at Town Moor, Newcastle upon Tyne that year for an RAF Battle of Britain display.

Mid May 72 To RAFM Hendon from Bicester. Displayed in Camm Hall area.

May 72 Formally allotted to RAFM by MOD. Initially displayed uncoded with silver undersides to represent an early production aircraft, since at that time its Battle of France involvement had not been conclusively proven.

5 Sep 73 Allotted RAF Instructional serial 8373M.

1978 Transferred to BoB Hall `E Pens' where it has remained on display ever since, in the colours of No.607 Squadron that it currently wears, as AF-F. Photo: Aircraft Illustrated Jul 90 p.374; Flypast Battle of Britain 70th Anniversary pp. 102-103.

3 Aug 98 One of a large group of aircraft donated to the RAFM by the MoD.

TEXT - ANDREW SIMPSON

 ROYAL AIR FORCE MUSEUM 2012.

[Dave Charles]

I know this is an old thread. but jut to let you know that I now have a number of documents that have allowed me to piece together serial and code letter combinations for number of the Hurricanes in the period May-Aug 1940 when they were based at Usworth

 

These include 

 

D - P2680

H - P2728

J - P2912

F - P2874

C - P2586

E - P3937

M - P2617

G - P2904

P - P2536

 

These have come from a combination of the "A" Flight Authorisation Log and a number of logbooks

 

Of these F.G.E.H,B,J all flew on August the 15th in defence of the North East (yet to work out which one was "B"

 

[stevej60]

5 hours ago, Dave Charles said:

I know this is an old thread. but jut to let you know that I now have a number of documents that have allowed me to piece together serial and code letter combinations for number of the Hurricanes in the period May-Aug 1940 when they were based at Usworth

 

These include 

 

D - P2680

H - P2728

J - P2912

F - P2874

C - P2586

E - P3937

M - P2617

G - P2904

P - P2536

 

These have come from a combination of the "A" Flight Authorisation Log and a number of logbooks

 

Of these F.G.E.H,B,J all flew on August the 15th in defence of the North East (yet to work out which one was "B"

 

Great work Dave always a pleasure to have information like this for individual aircraft now all we need is a good reasonably priced

1/32 Hurricane Mki and life would be complete!