P-51D front canopy damaged by CA glue's fumes...

[jean]

Hi everyone,

I realise that may not be the right forum for this type of query, but...

Yesterday I was gluing the front canopy on a Tamiya P-51D model, and I stuffed up the gluing. First time it has happened to me.

No doubt impatient, I obviously did not wait long enough for the CA fumes to dissipate and I used it to glue the canopy, which I thought I had dipped in Future a while back...

Senility at such an early age... Bottom line, part of the canopy turned nice and white on the inside. So it obviously did not get its bath.

I have no choice but to remove it and try a good polishing session AND a bath of Future.

But this is where my memory fails me again: I know there is a trick to unglue parts stuck with CA. Not sure though if it is Acetic acid, Holly Water or Ketchup... although acetic acid clings to the shreds of my mind.

Any help on this matter would be most appreciated.

Thanks a bunch

JR

[Mario]

Good evening, Jean,

is there no way to simply break off the part again? Perhaps this is better than using unknown chemicals to it. For polishing, I made very good experiences with display polish for mobile phones. In Germany there is a stuff called "Displex". You can easily out-polish the fog with it. But be careful not to add too much tension to the clear part, as it could easily crack. If using other stuff - first try with a clear part from the spares box. Greetings to the hippos!

Cheers,

Mario

Edited January 6, 2015 by Mario

[tank152]

Hi, does putting a model in a freezer not help to un stick things? Or failing that how about using a CA de-bonder? But please try that on some scrap clear plastic first in case that makes things worse.

Tim.

[Vonbraun]

I have used fingernail polish remover, which is essentially diluted acetic acid to dissolve super glue joints. But be warned that acetic acid can also dissolve styrene in some concentrations. Good luck!

[Black Knight]

One can buy superglue release, meant for use on fingers, but it'll undo a joint on a model. Its a gel. Work it into the joint line, it'll take a short time to work, but it will, with no damage to the canopy.

Dip the canopy in Klear again and that will get rid of the fogging.

[Tbolt]

I have used fingernail polish remover, which is essentially diluted acetic acid to dissolve super glue joints. But be warned that acetic acid can also dissolve styrene in some concentrations. Good luck!

Acetone based nail varnish remover will also dissolve cured CA, thought it may effect the clear plastic as I believe it's a bit hotter than the ethanol/acetic acid based ones, so like anything I would try it on a test piece first.

[Canuck63]

If anything else fails try one of these:

No,joking apart,you should try with CA debonder but be careful because there are quite a few that won't harm the plastic but,on the other hand,some would melt styrene...ask me how I know!
Best of luck
Manu

[Work In Progress]

To be honest I would detach it using purely mechanical violence, clean up the join with a fine file and wet & dry. Retouch the paint if necessary around the canopy opening, then substitute a Squadron / Falcon replacement canopy.

[jean]

Good evening, Jean,

is there no way to simply break off the part again? Perhaps this is better than using unknown chemicals to it. For polishing, I made very good experiences with display polish for mobile phones. In Germany there is a stuff called "Displex". You can easily out-polish the fog with it. But be careful not to add too much tension to the clear part, as it could easily crack. If using other stuff - first try with a clear part from the spares box. Greetings to the hippos!

Cheers,

Mario

Hi Mario,

this is Africa, and Displex is, I believe, in short supply... But I'll ask some German friends to send me some, as it could sure be useful in the future... The hippos are all fine (with a new baby born for Xmas) and I will definitely pass on your greetings!

Thanks

JR

Hi, does putting a model in a freezer not help to un stick things? Or failing that how about using a CA de-bonder? But please try that on some scrap clear plastic first in case that makes things worse.

Tim

Good one Tim, except that my model is already built, and I don't really want to get it back to its elemental bits and pieces...

Thanks anyway

JR

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I think I will try acetic acid with a fine brush and see what happens... I am trying not to have to break the canopy as it will take weeks to get a replacement from Mrs. Hannants. I did try once to use acetone to remove a bad paint job on a Skyray, and the plastic looked the worst for wear... It did give me a fright!

Manu, I have a 10 pounds hammer as my plan B, if all else fails.

Thanks to all and I will keep you posted as to the outcome.

That will teach me, even after all this time!

JR

[jean]

Good evening, Jean,

is there no way to simply break off the part again? Perhaps this is better than using unknown chemicals to it. For polishing, I made very good experiences with display polish for mobile phones. In Germany there is a stuff called "Displex". You can easily out-polish the fog with it. But be careful not to add too much tension to the clear part, as it could easily crack. If using other stuff - first try with a clear part from the spares box. Greetings to the

[ben_m]

I don't think acetic acid on its own will do anything to CA (e.g. decal softeners are acetic acid based, and I've never had them affect CA joints).

The non-acetone nail varnish removers contain ethyl acetate (made from acetic acid and ethanol), which will attack paint; not sure if it will unbond the CA. Acetone with eat the exposed polystryene immediately, and remove any paint nearby too.

I would be very surprised with there was something that could dissolve CA, and leave paint intact.

I would carefully score alone the CA joint line with a sharp blade, and keep going deeper until the canopy pops off. CA is brittle, and the blade with force the plastic apart, and the CA should crack quite cleanly, if there is little spillage outside of the joint (in which case it might pull surrounding paint with it)..

[jean]

I don't think acetic acid on its own will do anything to CA (e.g. decal softeners are acetic acid based, and I've never had them affect CA joints).

The non-acetone nail varnish removers contain ethyl acetate (made from acetic acid and ethanol), which will attack paint; not sure if it will unbond the CA. Acetone with eat the exposed polystryene immediately, and remove any paint nearby too.

I would be very surprised with there was something that could dissolve CA, and leave paint intact.

I would carefully score alone the CA joint line with a sharp blade, and keep going deeper until the canopy pops off. CA is brittle, and the blade with force the plastic apart, and the CA should crack quite cleanly, if there is little spillage outside of the joint (in which case it might pull surrounding paint with it)..

Hi Ben,

if the acetic acid does not work, I will have no option but to try and carefully pry the canopy out.Re whatever I use eating the paint out, it is not a big deal yet as the model is still in an unpainted state. Any damage to the front of the cockpit won't be a problem to touch up. The other thing I could try would be to "paint" the inside of the canopy with a fine brush dipped in Future, just in case it removed the whitening of the clear plastic.

Life is a long (hopefully) learning curve!

Cheers

JR

[Canuck63]

JR,

before trying all the other things,including mechanics' law # 3 ("If anything else fails try a bigger hammer!"),I'd really try to hit the canopy with a brush dipped in Future...it may help allright!
Chalk it down to experience and next time use diluted Elmer's,Future,egg white,saliva or pidgeon droppings to glue your canopy on...CA fumes do terrible things to canopies!!
Cheers
Manu

[jean]

JR,

before trying all the other things,including mechanics' law # 3 ("If anything else fails try a bigger hammer!"),I'd really try to hit the canopy with a brush dipped in Future...it may help allright!

Chalk it down to experience and next time use diluted Elmer's,Future,egg white,saliva or pidgeon droppings to glue your canopy on...CA fumes do terrible things to canopies!!

Cheers

Manu

Hi again Manu,

I started by using Clear Fix, but the canopy did not want to seat properly without having to keep it pushed down. I must be the only creature in the known universe that managed to screw up a Tamiya kit that bad! So I had no option (or so I thought in my addled brain) but to try CA...

Will definitely try the brush with Future first. And yes, this will definitely be put down to experience and learning!

Thanks for your help

JR

[grahamf]

Cyano glue hates water, that's why you can't use it outdoors, It might take a while but I would submerge it in water if possible.

For any clear part used in models I always use emulsion glue It has the best balance for adjustability, non fogging and you can break it apart and simply rub/pick the dried glue off years later If you need to.

Graham

[wellsprop]

I know it doesn't help now, but in the future use PVA. I've sworn by it for the last year or so

Ben

[jean]

Cyano glue hates water, that's why you can't use it outdoors, It might take a while but I would submerge it in water if possible.

For any clear part used in models I always use emulsion glue It has the best balance for adjustability, non fogging and you can break it apart and simply rub/pick the dried glue off years later If you need to.

Graham

Thanks Graham,

but what exactly is emulsion glue? No idea on my side!!!

Cheers

JR

I know it doesn't help now, but in the future use PVA. I've sworn by it for the last year or so

Ben

Thanks for that extra bit of info. Is PVA glue transparent?

Cheers

JR

[Doug Rogers]

It dries transparent yes. I've been using it for transparencies tor some time too, makes a surprisingly strong bond. Good thing is it's completely inert.

[Navy Bird]

If you can reach the inside of the front canopy with a brush, try isopropyl alcohol. It will remove the fog and not damage the clear plastic. I've done this many times. However, isopropyl will begin to remove any Future that you may have on the clear plastic. Brushing a new coat of Future after the fog is removed will fix that. Just be careful with the isopropyl and use it sparingly.

If you try brushing on Future to remove the fog, which I've not tried, and it doesn't remove the fog then you've sealed it in-between two layers of Future. No problem, isopropyl or Windex will remove the Future and the fog (and the first layer of Future if you work at it long enough).

Fun stuff, eh?

Cheers,

Bill

[bobmig]

Acetone is what is used to dissolve cyano-acrylic adhesives... but it's not something you would want to use on plastic! These adhesives are very strong in shear and tension, but also very weak in peeling and cleavage modes. So, if you can get an x-acto blade into the joint it MAY be possible to just pop it off.

[jean]

If you can reach the inside of the front canopy with a brush, try isopropyl alcohol. It will remove the fog and not damage the clear plastic. I've done this many times. However, isopropyl will begin to remove any Future that you may have on the clear plastic. Brushing a new coat of Future after the fog is removed will fix that. Just be careful with the isopropyl and use it sparingly.

If you try brushing on Future to remove the fog, which I've not tried, and it doesn't remove the fog then you've sealed it in-between two layers of Future. No problem, isopropyl or Windex will remove the Future and the fog (and the first layer of Future if you work at it long enough).

Fun stuff, eh?

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Bill, thanks for the info. Just a silly question (sometimes I wish I were born English to understand things better in that language...): is Isopropyl alcool the same thing as surgical alcool? Or is it methylated spirit (which is purple in this neck of the world?

Once I am sure of which alcool you are talking about, then I am actually very keen to try that first and foremost. Ben away from home for a while now, but I am not rushing things as I don't need an additional disaster, so all infos are more than welcome.

And I thought I knew what I was doing (almost) ... Fun stuff indeed!

Cheers

JR

[jean]

Acetone is what is used to dissolve cyano-acrylic adhesives... but it's not something you would want to use on plastic! These adhesives are very strong in shear and tension, but also very weak in peeling and cleavage modes. So, if you can get an x-acto blade into the joint it MAY be possible to just pop it off.

Hi bobmig,

my model is by no mean any great shake, but I am almost seeing the finish line and I am trying to avert a last minute disaster any worse than what I have now. What worries me is the MAY...

I know there is no guarantee in this funny world of ours, but I will only use chisel and hammer and/or X-acto blade when all else has failed...

I have popped out parts glued (maybe badly) with CA before, but never a canopy, and I guess I am just chickening out.

Thanks nonetheless for your suggestion.

JR

[3DStewart]

Isopropyl alcohol is not the same as surgical spirits or methylated spirits. In the UK you can buy it in Maplins where it's sold as a cleaning and degreasing agent for circuit boards and the like.

Stewart

[Navy Bird]

Here in the US, isopropyl alcohol is often referred to as "rubbing alcohol" and is available at pharmacies. It is marketed as a first aid antiseptic, is clear (transparent) and typically is sold with 91% purity, although you can find 70% purity. It's what I use to thin GSI Creos aqueous hobby colours.

If you try it on the canopy, use it sparingly as it will start to remove any Future or Kleer that is present. It won't harm the plastic. Whatever you do, don't use acetone - that will attack the plastic and make a right lovely mess.

According to Wikipedia, the worlds' largest non-peer reviewed journal, isopropyl alcohol in the US and surgical spirit in the UK are the same thing. However, surgical spirit that is purple has been dyed. Believe this article with caution! I have no idea! The purple dye could stain things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol

Cheers,

Bill

[jean]

Hi Bill,

having here only "surgical" alcohol and having just come back from the nearest chemist likely to know the difference between all those alcohols (only 500 km away...), I will try to use what I have (sparingly... I have got the message) on the inside of the canopy tomorrow and I will let you know what happened. The worst, in my eyes, would be to retain the fogging, while making sure all the germs thriving on the cockpit coming have been eradicated! I have seen worse deals before, and nobody should die... I just have to make a note to myself not to smoke while doing so.

Stewart, I was in Maplins on Kensington High Street, London, just before Christmas! Where were you when I needed you?

Thanks guys for your patience!

JR