Tom Hall Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 First surgery completed. Doctor recovering rapidly. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazdot Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Nice work 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 While some paint is drying, I can at least reveal a little more about this project. This model will be an M-5. It was part of a 600-plane contract signed in August 1942. There would ultimately be 60 M-1s, 260 M-5s, and 280 M-10s. Per William Green and Joe Baugher, all Ms were initially intended as Lend-Lease (export) planes. There were maybe three dozen exceptions, which were diverted into the 18th Fighter Group (Pacific Theatre) and the 51st Fighter Group (CBI Theatre), but my model will be of an export plane. This was a crated plane. We know that from the web site "ADF Serials", which explains that certain RNZAF M-5s were assembled at the depot at Hobsonville, NZ in March 1943. I have a particular NZ serial number in mind, for which I ordered decals the other day. (By coincidence, Silver Fox is building a very similar plane in another scale for the Less Frequently Built Air Forces GB.) The fact that this was intended from the start to be an export plane tells me that I need to make the cockpit closer to British Commonwealth standards than to USAAF standards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Lloyd Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Very nice and interesting project Tom, the Ms and Ns are a bit of a minefield of factory modifications, field modifications, retrospective de-modification in the field and so on. What vintage is the kit? I've never seen that boxing in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Is that the Hasegawa P-40 'Kitty Hawk' kit you are using as a donor? What are the main differences of a P-40M, and isn't there a kit available? Interesting project, will follow with interest. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 While some paint is drying, I can at least reveal a little more about this project. This model will be an M-5. It was part of a 600-plane contract signed in August 1942. There would ultimately be 60 M-1s, 260 M-5s, and 280 M-10s. Per William Green and Joe Baugher, all Ms were initially intended as Lend-Lease (export) planes. There were maybe three dozen exceptions, which were diverted into the 18th Fighter Group (Pacific Theatre) and the 51st Fighter Group (CBI Theatre), but my model will be of an export plane. This was a crated plane. We know that from the web site "ADF Serials", which explains that certain RNZAF M-5s were assembled at the depot at Hobsonville, NZ in March 1943. I have a particular NZ serial number in mind, for which I ordered decals the other day. (By coincidence, Silver Fox is building a very similar plane in another scale for the Less Frequently Built Air Forces GB.) The fact that this was intended from the start to be an export plane tells me that I need to make the cockpit closer to British Commonwealth standards than to USAAF standards. Hi Tom, Apart from the P 40E's received from the USAAF in Tonga and possibly the odd replacement direct in the forward areas, ALL RNZAF P 40's E's, K's M's & N's were assembled at Hobsonville here in Auckland. Some of the early delivered M's probably were built to RAF spec, they arrived in RAF style camouflage. However the remainder of the M's, were stock standard US P 40M's delivered as part of "Lend Lease", arrived in Olive Drab/Neutral Grey. Just because they were ascribed the title "Lend Lease" does not mean they all had RAF/RNZAF spec built cockpits etc. They had US style seat belts etc, even the radio systems were of US origin - Why? The RNZAF was attached to the US Navy for the duration of the Pacific Conflict. When serving along side US forces in the Island hopping, any spares etc were common via the US Quatremasters (or obtained from derilicts). Really the only thing that changed upon assembly for the K's later M's and N's, were the over painting of the US Star & Bar with the RNZAF Pacific Roundel. The RNZAF received via Lend Lease a number of different aircraft types, F4U-1/FG-1's TBF-1's and so forth all Stock Standard US aircraft as supplied to the US Navy, Marines and Army Air Corps. Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) LDS Modeller, I appreciate your advice, especially since I am at an early stage of this build and can make corrections fairly easily now. Can you cite a reference, a manual or contract language or something? Are you saying that M-5s were all made alike? Or, are you saying that certain M-5s had a different treatment? I'm afraid I'm not swayed by what service had strategic control over the battlefield. The US Navy should not have been a party to this contract. For the time being, I am concerned only with the cockpit colouring. I'm not concerned about radios or gauges for a 1/72 scale model like this, on which the canopy will be shut. When I look at the colour photo of P-40s in RAAF service at ADF Serials (header photo for group A29-400 through A29-704, an N-5 in the foreground) I don't see a USAAF interior green at the head armour. I see something closer to a Commonwealth interior green. Ditto for the planes father back. (I should add that the plane I am making probably did not receive any spares or retrofits, unless by Curtiss or when Hobsonville assembled the plane. I can accept that the exterior was probably Curtiss' rendering of Dark Olive Drab 41 over Neutral Gray 43.) Chockhead, for a rundown on the variants, you may find Joe Baugher's web site useful. Just search "P-40 Baugher". There are kits of Ms. However, I don't care for the Academy one, especially when I have several Hasegawa ones on hand. So, I combined parts of the two Hasegawa kits, their E and their N, for this build. The M-5 has the cooling grill just forward of the exhaust stacks. You might be able to find a decal for it. I should also add that the main difference between the K-20 and the M is the engine. Baugher seems to say all Ms have the cooling grille, but there is a B&W photo of what is ostensibly an M-1 by RAAF serial that lacks the cooling grille, so maybe the grill didn't come along for M-1s right away, or maybe not until the M-5. Peter, I believe this Hasegawa N-20 kit dates to around 1992. Edited January 27, 2015 by Tom Hall 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Hi Tom, I checked out the 'P-40 Baugher' website. Very interesting, I shall have to remember that. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Tom. I have to make one correction for yesterday the camouflaged M's should have been K's (seemed to be my day for typing the wrong thing) To answer your questions, though not in the order you asked/commented I'm afraid I'm not swayed by what service had strategic control over the battlefield. The US Navy should not have been a party to this contract. I would suggest you read the following article. http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2AirF-c12-1.html I can list various books. but I would doubt you would purchase them for this build. "Portrait of An Air Force" Official history of the RNZAF Too Young to Die - Bryan Cox - Flew P 40's in Pacfic Wings Over The Pacific - Alex Horn - Flew P 40's in Pacific We Also Served - Walley Ingham RNZAF Fitter worked on Lend Lease Aircraft in Pacific RNZAF -First Decade 1937 -1946 - Charles Darby, Plenty of photos and descriptions of wartime RNZAF Aircraft RNZAF Museum Wigram Are you saying that M-5s were all made alike? Or, are you saying that certain M-5s had a different treatment? I can't speak for the M versions other airforces received, but to my knowledge the M versions the RNZAF received were stock US aircraft as also used by the USAAF in the Pacific. I suggest you have a read through this page from Pete Mossongs site, he is well researched and very knowledgable on the RNZAF WWII, it has a list of the P 40' M's -variants. http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/p40ser.html Also from Pete's site, a very famous P 40-M, Geoff Fiskins Wairarapa Wildcat NZ3072. Apart from the RNZAF Pacific Roundel, if the aircraft wore US Star & Bar you wouldn't see any difference - also note th US Style flying gear (see comment 1) http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/geofisk.jpg For the time being, I am concerned only with the cockpit colouring. I'm not concerned about radios or gauges for a 1/72 scale model like this, on which the canopy will be shut. Cockpit shot - paint appears to (even in B/W) Standard US Interior green -can't see the pilots harness very well, but would be standard US type (Per Pete Mossongs Website) http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/p40_eng.jpg Post war at Rukuhia you can make out the rear bulkhead , it's not RAF Interior Green note also the painted over US star (per RNZAF Pro Boards) http://s378.photobucket.com/user/43willys_jeep/media/17.jpg.html P 40-N's note the colour of the rear cockpit of the aircraft at bottom of page - US Interior Green or Olive Drab http://s378.photobucket.com/user/43willys_jeep/media/8.jpg.html Another N with rear cockpit US Interior Green or Olive Drab http://s378.photobucket.com/user/43willys_jeep/media/8.jpg.html As far as the radios go, its inclusion is important as the RNZAF P 40's flew on raids with USMAG/USAAF units against Rabaul etc - need the same type of radios to comunicate while in flight. Quite often an RNZAF Hudson or later, Ventura would act as navigation aircraft for a US raid. (I should add that the plane I am making probably did not receive any spares or retrofits, unless by Curtiss or when Hobsonville assembled the plane. I can accept that the exterior was probably Curtiss' rendering of Dark Olive Drab 41 over Neutral Gray 43.) The only aircraft that received fittings (of the P 40 variety) to my knowledge was the P 40 E with the Sutton Harness and RNZAF radios, however they were retained in New Zealand for training All lend Lease P 40 aircraft that arrived at Hobsonville were assembled test flowen and went out to units as received, the only airframes to have anything extra were the K's with additional camouflage. The M that you are building, I'm picking was the same, only exception addition of RNZAF Pacific Roundel over Star & Bar From your coment about the Olive Drab etc - I'm sorry its a bit puzzling, but what colours are you expecting to build your model in, If I may ask? When I did some research for my RNZAF P 40E build, I was expecting that it would have its cockpit painted in the US version of RAF Interior Grey Green, as they were from an RAF contract ex USA. When I approached the RNZAF Museum about the colours, I was surprised to read that from the Curtiss documents that arrived with the aircraft, the cockpit was Interior green, and the rest of the airframe interior Zinc Chromate. I'm quite happy to Email the Museum to ask, but I'm picking that the answer would be US Interior Green Cockpit, Zinc Chromate interior airframe with Olive Drab/Neutal Grey exterior for the M Variants. Hope these comments etc help? Regards Alan Edited January 28, 2015 by LDSModeller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Many thanks, LDS Modeller, but I have already spent hours on line discovering a fair amount of what you recommend above that I look at. That body of material told me that, as Mr. Lloyd said above, the Ms would be a bit of a minefield. As an attorney, I am not vexed by minefields, ambiguity or the possibility that I will make mistakes building my model. In fact, I don't see how people could make a model of a P-40 without making at least one or two small mistakes. I hope that you and other New Zealanders may forgive me mine. This is my first ever group build. I'm not familiar with the etiquette. Still, I have made it a point not to call anyone else out on what I think may be a flaw in his/her work, or to offer advice without the modeller actually asking for advice first. I have already had one well-meaning soul tell me privately that I need to use a "heavily weathered" olive drab for the upper surfaces of this plane. This in spite of his not knowing if I intend to depict a new plane. (Or even knowing if accuracy is my paramount goal. What if my paramount goal is merely to meet the deadline?) Please do not trouble yourself to do research on my behalf, LDS Modeller. I must now push on with the model. I have limited time for this hobby and I sort of have to choose between making the model and doing more research for it. Edited January 28, 2015 by Tom Hall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Tom. Quite happy to provide information on our Air Force aircraft for anyone Look forward to your build, to be honest I am quite intrigued as to what your model will look like on completion I really enjoy it, when people from other countries build our RNZAF aircraft, we're just a little country and when people like you do so, it helps put our Air Force out there, and the not only that, honours our men/women who served. Happy modelling Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) (Slight progress made due to a head cold over the last nine days, which is finally going away.)Filler has now dried around fuselage grafts, on drop tank and spinner (Yes, I know the propeller normally goes in before sealing up the back of the spinner, but I have to beef up the prop blades and will put them in one at a time when they are ready.); filled hokey aileron detail and sink marks in flaps.Took the warp out of the wing pieces. Cut grooves in lower wing piece to move guns lower in the wings; sanded guns off upper wing halves.Roughed out new wheel wells, which now mate well with upper wing halves. The canvas liners are coming soon!Removed rudder; filled in cockpit at wing roots (not visible in this photo). Edited February 6, 2015 by Tom Hall 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazdot Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Ooooh this should be good looking forward to seeing more Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Minor change of plans due to time limit and new idea about how to display this thing. Took some other Hasegawa P-40 wings, took out the warp and glued them together. Will now make this with wheels up to put the plane aloft. Will save wheel wells with canvas liners for another day. Want to start painting the new, simplified wings tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookenbacher Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I am a fan of wheels up builds, so I'm looking forward to your change of plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Not as much progress as I needed to make, but some. Did some more surgery, this time to increase the dihedral. Fuselage just laid onto wings, not glued. Need to sand the landing gear fairings. This is a sort of priming and colour testing (more like fooling-around-with-paints-and-a-brush). Not sure which I like better, the wider stripe on the left or the narrower one on the right. Which do you like better? The loser will receive an adjustment and a lovely consolation prize. Maybe 30% of this paint on the wings will be sanded away soon. Am getting a little anxious about making the markings now, but have at least got my measurements and a possible paint for the blue, fairly dark, and some masking things. Edited March 9, 2015 by Tom Hall 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazdot Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Go with the left! you will finish definately its been good seeing this come together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookenbacher Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 It's funny how the thinner stripe causes it to seem longer. Optical illusion. I'll vote for wider, if just to provide a consensus. I really like the result of the color test on the wings. It shows how OD can appear both green and brown. Very interesting stuff Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Okay, thank you. The left side turned out to have better geometry for wrapping around the wing at the right spot. My fooling around with greens and browns was a little too Japanese Army, so practically none will show through the spraying. It looks like the NZ P-40 pilots wore long-sleeve khaki overalls. What colour Mae West, please? What colour helmet, please? Dazdot, I think you may be betting on the wrong horse, because I still have hours and hours of work to do on this. Edited March 10, 2015 by Tom Hall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 It looks like the NZ P-40 pilots wore long-sleeve khaki overalls. What colour Mae West, please? What colour helmet, please? Hi Tom Just to differentiate between the forward theatre and home (New Zealand) Pilots flying in New Zealand would have worn a variety of clothing, from overalls (Sidcott style) to flying in shirt sleeves rolled up. In the forward theatres, RNZAF Pilots wore (generally) US issue clothing, US style head gear (typically USN/USMC) as you can see in these photo links, so paint accordingly. http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/EsmaLee2.jpg http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/4254806e4b6890465161f854073d8afd_zps017aacc9.jpg http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/39e8cf6ab957389943f50c85b4742914_zps59380628.jpg http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/8da54823c505890ae38715d1bb039721_zpsaef6a72e.jpg http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/chinapilot/62c5aa5bf57a4b41307a0315213d4612_zpsa379bc6e.jpg Note in this one various Life preservers. Mae Wests were generally British style (could be green/yellow) but, pilots have been known to wear USN/USMC gear also Hope that helps? Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Thank you, Alan, but I don't know what colours those are. The helmet is a sort of light brown, but is it on the yellow side, the orange side, the red side, or the beige side? I see a white scarf under the coveralls, and the colour of the coveralls I can guess. I suppose I shall paint the Mae West light yellow. I see one that sticks up in back like an Elizabethan frill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Thank you, Alan, but I don't know what colours those are. The helmet is a sort of light brown, but is it on the yellow side, the orange side, the red side, or the beige side? I see a white scarf under the coveralls, and the colour of the coveralls I can guess. I suppose I shall paint the Mae West light yellow. I see one that sticks up in back like an Elizabethan frill. Hi Tom, If you scroll through these links, have a look at the USN/USMC helmets and take your pick colourwise, any one would suit what an RNZAF Pilot in the forward areas wore. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/62995-some-of-my-wwii-naval-aviator-flight-helmets/ http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/86861-my-wwii-flight-helmets/ Flight suits http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Support%20Equipment/USN-AAFsummerflightsuits.jpg?t=1289627047 Hope that helps? Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 Thanks, Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hall Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 Now starting to build from the air up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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