Andy341 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Afternoon All, Last night I finally sat down and opened the Airfix 1/48 Javelin with a view to starting it. Additionally, I also opened the AlleyCat Mk7 conversion kit as my dad worked on them when with 33 Squadron in 1958 at RAF Leeming and RAF Middleton St George. Specifically XH838, which he photographed on the flightline shortly after delivery. This is where the problems arose. I understand from the AlleyCat instructions that I need to insert piece for the Mk7 gunports, as I am not doing a missile carrying aircraft. That leaves me with another insert, which I don't think I need, and a long panel for the outer/upper wing. Is there any change in the shape of the outer/upper wing from Mk7 to Mk9? From the sources I have at my disposal I thought that the Mk 9 as basically a Mk 7 with re-heat, Firestreak missiles, and the re-fueling probe. Do I need to incorporate this item into my build? Any help would be grateful. Regards Andy341 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As far as I remember the leading edges of the outer wings were drooped on the 9.So perhaps the part in the conversion is a normal leading edge? Remember that not all 9s were fitted with the refuelling probes.Those that were,were FAW9R. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi Scimitar, Many thanks for your input on this matter, it's very much appreciated. Having sat down and re-read the instructions again they appear to make more sense. As I intend to do a Mk7 Javelin of 33 Squadron, which were only fitted with 4 Aden cannons, the instructions.be more te that 'the four wing inserts require to be fitted as shown for cannon armed aircraft'. This makes sense as there are four small wing inserts, two with gun ports and two with a normal leading edge, one of each to each wing. The confusion is in the last sentence of instruction 3, where it states 'Note the outer wing inserts are needed as the earlier Marks of Javelin did not have 'kinks' in the leading edge'. On examining the kit their is no 'kink' in the outer wing. I wish that instructions could be more explicit. Do you think that the refuelling probe, when fitted, ruined the look of the Javelin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I'm a big fan of the Javelin but am the first to concede that it was never a 'looker' so in my opinion the refuelling probe just adds to the charm. Duncan B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I'm with Duncan on this one. The Javelin is my second favourite aeroplane and could never be described as beautiful but its sheer brick outhouse styling is probably why I like it! The probe looks like they took the designers doodle instead of an engineer's drawing! Maybe in 2016 we will have my 1/48 Scimitar and 1/72 Javelin (new tool) from Airfix. RG 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 From what I have gathered, the Javelin only started operating to specification at Mk7 and seems to have suffered from slow development, and by the time it was a good weapons system it had been overtaken over by other types, e.g. Lightning. Lovely example of 1950's aircraft though. From conversations with my dad, when inspection panels were removed following delivery delivery from the factory they contained an abundance of rivet heads. On starting the Javelin was prone to fires, so on starting a techi had to remove a panel on the centre line and stick his head in to see if there was any sign of fire. This was done without ear defenders or any other PPE. Apparently, there was a great deal of thought in the cockpit layout. There doesn't appear to be a wealth of photographs or other material relating to the Mk7. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 There are several readily available books on the Javelin out there if you have more than a passing interest in the Dragmaster. Warpaint do a relatively cheap book, take a look on Amazon for more ideas. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 I had a Eureka moment today regarding the wings of the Javelin Mk7. I' ve more time on my hands at the moment, whilst recovering from spinal surgery, and after studying photos taken by dad whilst at RAF Leeming and RAF Middleton St George, answered a number of questions. The mk7 Javelin, in 33 Squadron at least, only carried 2 x 30mm Aden in each wing. Therefore, the only the gunport wing insert is required from the AlleyCat set, in respect of the wings. The outer wing panels are for mk7s armed with Fire streak and the other leading edge insert is also surplus to requirement. Additionally, I discovered that there are only two rows of vortex generators on the mk7 wing. These are situated on the leading and those situated towards the trailing edge, just in front of the ailerons. Therefore,if modelling a mk7 the middle row of vortex generators need to be removed. In the next few days I will start a new thread in the work in progress section. This is a great leap of faith for me, having never shown my work before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Do you know which aircraft you are intending to model and what timescale? If so I could have a look through my references and check whether it was a four gun or not. A quick glance through my books tell me that 33 Sqn were the first Squadron to get the FAW7 (after the CFE) and they received the four gun version initially, 4th July 1958 was first delivery. They started to convert onto FAW9's in October 1960, although the last FAW7 didn't leave until January 1962! To quote Roger Lindsay's Service History of the Javelin Mk7 to 9R, "In fact a relatively high proportion of 33 Sqn's FAW7s were destined never to be reconverted to the later mark (FAW9), partly because of their comparatively high number of airframe hours and 4 gun configuration." They did receive minor modification during service in preparation for the possible reworking to FAW9 standard though so I would suggest that working from photo references would be best if you can. I hope that helps Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismac60 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The other panel is to replace the leading edge next to the guns as it dips on the Airfix kit and the insert straights it. Here's my gun-fighter Mk5 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Duncan, again many thanks for your input. This is one model I want to get right. The aircraft I intend to model is XH838, coded with the the letter F. This aircraft was photographed on the flight line at RAF Leeming shortly after delivery to 33 Squadron. He was an instrument fitter with 33 as they transitioned from Meteor NF14 to the Javelin. Therefore the timeframe would be 1958. Other than the photos taken by my father, my main reference source is Gloster Javelin - The RAF's First Delta Wing Fighter by Richatd A Franks. Chris, Thanks for sharing the photo of your Mk 5. Absolutely wonderful, I wish I could attain your standard. Thanks for the heads up on the outer panel. The instructions confused me (it doesn't take much)when it said 'for the missile armed aircraft only the Kurt wing panels will need to be installed', and I wasn't doing a missile armed aircraft. Therefore, I guess I will now install the panels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 OK, well if you are looking at shortly after delivery to 33 Sqn (the first Squadron to receive FAW7s) and still at Leeming then I would put money on it being a four gun aircraft at that time (April 1958) as 23 Sqn were the third Squadron to re-equip onto the FAW7 but the first to receive missile capable ones (in October 1958 IIRC). I will check to see if XH838 was eventually reworked into an FAW9 (but during the time frame you are looking at it would still have been a four gun non missile capable airframe). Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I will check to see if XH838 was eventually reworked into an FAW9 (but during the time frame you are looking at it would still have been a four gun non missile capable airframe). Duncan B I'll save you looking Duncan as I have "the book" on the desk (for something else). 33 Squadron was the first to equip with the FAW.Mk.7, all four gun, non missile, aircraft. XH838 was delivered 28/8/58 and became 'F'. Did not last long on the Unit as the u/c collapsed on landing at Middleton, 29/9/60, causing Cat 5 damage and it ended its days at Catterick for fire practice. Above from Javelin Mk.7 to 9R by Roger Lindsay. Javelin 7's (all) only had one pitot (port wing tip), did not carry underwing tanks, only the fuselage ones. Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Dennis, Thanks for the biography of XH838. Your information indicates why, in Richard A Franks's book, it states solely that this aircraft served with 33 Squadron and was not updated to Mk 9 standard Just out of interest I have tonight managed to identify another Javelin Mk7 in the photographs he took, which is XH721. This aircraft appears to have survived long enough to be upgraded to Mk 9. When photographed it has not been allocated a letter code. You don't know what letter this became do you? Would there be any interest in seeing the photos? Chris, I took a good head on look at the wing shape and it all makes sense. The leading edge of the appears to thin out as you go towards the wing tip and then increase again and to eliminate this 'dip' the outer wing panels provided are inserted. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and kind regards to you all. Andy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'd be very interested in seeing any of the photos you mention. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Hi Duncan. Thanks for your interest in the photographs oFXH838 and XH721. I will post them after the weekend. Thanks for all your inputs over the last few days. I finally finished the surgery on both wings and dry fitted both the gun port and the outer wing panels. Tomorrow I will complete the job and do the small amount of filling necessary. I am a little limited as to what I can do at the present time as I am recovering from major spinal depression surgery, however this project is excellent therapy. It was interesting to read your profile. Leuchars was a great station and I spent a short time there in the late 1990's. It was heartbreaking to see the derelict Phantoms awaiting the scrap man. Just out of interest, I recently bought the CyberHobby Venom NF3 and was going to do it in 151 Squadron colours. Am I correct in saying they operated out of Leuchars? If you haven't got this kit it is wort buying. Kind regards Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 151 Sqn did operate out of Leuchars in the night fighter role during the 1950's. They reformed there on Meteor NF11s then onto Vampire NF10s (a backward step!), Venom NF3s then finally onto the Javelin FAW5s before disbanding in the late 50's. I have just recently acquired the Cyberhobby Venom, got it cheap from Hobby Link Japan (£14 + postage). I also have the CMR resin kit of the Venom NF3 which is more accurate (the wings are too long in span on the Cyberhobby kit), must get round to making them soon. I hope you will post photos of your Javelin once completed. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigger39 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Hi Andy Be aware that the Richard Franks book has a serious error (or typo) that seems to have been taken up by Airfix. The fin flash is actually 60" high and 72" wide - not the other way round. Nearly all the completed 1/48 Javelins on this forum have had the fin flash applied straight from the box( not unreasonably) and this has screwed up fin markings. This is more important for your 11Sqn model as their Sqn markings are quite wide. The tall fin flash also exposes too much camouflage in front of the red band, If my maths are correct the flash should measure one and a half inches wide by one and a quarter inches tall. There is a buff aerial on the rudder and the flash should be more or less level with the top of that aerial Clive 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigger39 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Sorry, I seem to be mixing up two different posts - it is Juanita that is building an 11Sqn Mk 9. My comments on the fin flash are applicable to any 1/48 Airfix Javelin. Once again apologies - it's my age, Clive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Thanks Clive, I hadn't noticed the fin flash problem. I'll make a note and stick it in the model box so that I remember when I finally get round to it. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy341 Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Thanks Clive, To be honest I had not thought that far ahead, however I am now aware of the decals in the kit. I will check the measurements against the decals provided in the AlleyCat conversion kit. I now have the photographs on my desktop computer and I will endeavour to post them tomorrow. Do not get too excited, they illustrate the aircraft I intend to do and another aircraft XH721. They are in black and white, and from what I can gather they were taken very hurriedly on the flight line just after delivery. As my build progresses I am photographing each stage and I intend to post my first build on this site. Just another question, in respect of Mig washes, is it better to use the panel line wash or the standard dark wash? I am new to using this product. Any advice would be welcome. Kind regards Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Looking forward to seeing the photos. With regards to the washes it depends on the effect you are after. I use a thinned down version of winter streaking grime on dark camo'd aircraft that I want to depict as having seen a lot of use. If you are after that new look I would stick with the panel line wash but would go easy with it on most of the panel lines, just using a heavier wash on the control surface hinges. Another thing that I have just remembered is that the aileron trailing edges are quite thick on the Airfix kit compared to the rest of the trailing edge. That is not a mistake by Airfix (even though you will read posts stating that it is) as the later marks did have thick, squared off trailing edged ailerons. I will check to see when that feature was added but IIRC it appeared at the same time as the vortex generators so the FAW7 would have had them. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Another thing that I have just remembered is that the aileron trailing edges are quite thick on the Airfix kit compared to the rest of the trailing edge. That is not a mistake by Airfix (even though you will read posts stating that it is) as the later marks did have thick, squared off trailing edged ailerons. I will check to see when that feature was added but IIRC it appeared at the same time as the vortex generators so the FAW7 would have had them. Duncan B Duncan, Javelins had squared of ailerons together with the kink in the wing leading edge introduced from the prototype onwards It was an aerodynamic feature introduced to ensure that the trans/supersonic shockwave remained attached to the trailing edge and enabled full aileron control at those speeds. I'd like to know who stated that it is wrong on the Airfix kit as that, together with the droop on the outer leading edge, is one of the first things I checked up on when working with Ali on his conversions before the kit was released. HTH Dennis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Dennis, there were a few comments posted online (including BM) when the kit first came out "criticising" the thickness of the trailing edge of the ailerons and from the comments it was obvious that they hadn't realised it was an actual feature. My understanding is that the vortex generators first appeared on the FAW4 (FAW2 and T3 followed FAW4 into RAF service) and I thought I had read that the ailerons got the squared trailing edge at the same time (but, of course, can't find the reference now so am happy to be corrected) for the aerodynamic reasons you mentioned, I agree the kink first appeared on the prototypes. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avro683 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The fin flashes included in all the Alley Cat sets may correct this. I'll have a look and measure them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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