1:72 Sikorsky Ilya Muromets, Maquette/scratchbuilt - the beast is back!

[pheonix]

I agree with the others Ian - those exhaust pies look really convincing. I especially like your jig - you will know why!

 

I agree with the Martian - go with the brass rod because in the end you will not regret having done so!

 

P

[TheBaron]

Great to see this back in production Ian. All that effort on the engines will be well worth it - they are looking amazing.

Tony

 

[hendie]

those engines look sweet Ian - great work

[Brandy]

The radiators were causing a little angst. Namely, how to attach the brass rod to the plastic cores. I went out this morning and bought a couple of items to try. the first was a normal glue which turned out to be rubber based and totally useless. the second was this

 

 

Very thin double sided plastic sheet. I think it may work! It allows me to attach the brass rod and still be able to adjust it slightly to get everything straight.

 Here's the first attempt, not bad, but could be improved...

 

 

Actually , I have only just noticed the gaps from looking at the pic, they are not really visible by eye. Hopefully they will stay in place, particularly the edge pieces. I'll leave it a day or two and see how well they have stuck before moving on.

 

Ian

[pheonix]

For a first attempt Ian that looks very good. I find that cameras have a tendency to reveal what the eye frequently misses, and wonder sometimes if it would be better not to use close up lenses when taking pictures! Cosidering the size of these radiators and their positions on the completed model I think it is fair to ask "how many people would really see those gaps?"

 

At the end of the day it is your decision concerning what you choose to do, but if it were me I think that I might be happy with that.

 

P

[hendie]

Depending upon how much of the end of the rods is visible, it may be possible to tin the soldering iron and just run it across the ends of the wire and with some luck that may be enough to hold everything in place.

 

Or, assuming the radiators have some kind of framework around the outside, what about cutting a slot in the frame the same width as the diameter of the brass rod, and using that to align/hold the rods ?

[AdrianMF]

Nice work on the engines, and the exhausts look great too.

 

On the radiators, it looks like your wires aren't quite straight, which is causing the gaps. To straighten brass wire I either roll it between two hard flat surfaces (sometimes works), or I stretch it a tiny bit with a pair of pliers at each end, which does the trick every time. I like Hendie's idea of putting the ends into a slot in the end frames. Or you could line up a bunch of plastic rod bits on some plastic card, brush them over with liquid cement and then cut off slices of whole radiator when dry. Although I'm not sure how big the radiators actually are and you have about 30 tubes across - the smallest diameter rod I've seen is 10 thou and I'm not sure that wouldn't just turn to mush on seeing cement.

 

Or you could just go with what you have got. I'm sure with the Mk I eyeball, and through a forest of rigging, that it will look perfect!

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Brandy]

On 9/9/2017 at 3:41 AM, pheonix said:

For a first attempt Ian that looks very good. I find that cameras have a tendency to reveal what the eye frequently misses, and wonder sometimes if it would be better not to use close up lenses when taking pictures! Cosidering the size of these radiators and their positions on the completed model I think it is fair to ask "how many people would really see those gaps?"

 

At the end of the day it is your decision concerning what you choose to do, but if it were me I think that I might be happy with that.

 

P

Thanks P. It really isn't noticable at all, and as you say, they will be pretty well hidden, at least from the front. 

 

On 9/9/2017 at 8:22 AM, hendie said:

Depending upon how much of the end of the rods is visible, it may be possible to tin the soldering iron and just run it across the ends of the wire and with some luck that may be enough to hold everything in place.

 

Or, assuming the radiators have some kind of framework around the outside, what about cutting a slot in the frame the same width as the diameter of the brass rod, and using that to align/hold the rods ?

Thanks Hendie!

The tinning idea might be worth a try! There is no frame at the sides, just top and bottom. Similar to a car radiator. I had intended to do that with plastic card, but now I'm thinking I could possibly do it with a little solder and file it all smooth when done......that would definitely hold it all in place, provided I can do it without melting the plastic core....or, of course, I could use brass for the core too.....

 

On 9/9/2017 at 10:07 AM, AdrianMF said:

Nice work on the engines, and the exhausts look great too.

 

On the radiators, it looks like your wires aren't quite straight, which is causing the gaps. To straighten brass wire I either roll it between two hard flat surfaces (sometimes works), or I stretch it a tiny bit with a pair of pliers at each end, which does the trick every time. I like Hendie's idea of putting the ends into a slot in the end frames. Or you could line up a bunch of plastic rod bits on some plastic card, brush them over with liquid cement and then cut off slices of whole radiator when dry. Although I'm not sure how big the radiators actually are and you have about 30 tubes across - the smallest diameter rod I've seen is 10 thou and I'm not sure that wouldn't just turn to mush on seeing cement.

 

Or you could just go with what you have got. I'm sure with the Mk I eyeball, and through a forest of rigging, that it will look perfect!

 

Regards,

Adrian

Adrian, that is, I believe, the root of the problem. All the pieces were rolled on my glass cutting board with a metal ruler, but apparently they didn't all come out exactly straight. This is .010" brass wire and I agree with you that it probably wouldn't work with plastic rod and glue.

 

 A little more care with the rolling, and I'll try the tinning idea for the ends. 

 

Thanks chaps!

 

Ian

Edited December 1, 2017 by limeypilot

[TonyTiger66]

I agree that these look good already Ian. Given how tiny they are and all the rigging, any microscopic gaps won't show.

 

I may be talking bobbins, but to have a little variation can look more natural. I'm thinking of a specific kit; The original FROG SB-2 bomber. I liked the way the radiators had been reproduced. Very 'in service' looking; maybe walloped by a few birds etc.

 

Looking forward to the next instalment 

 

Best regards 

TonyT

 

[Brandy]

Thanks Tony, I agree entirely with the variation bit, but the gaps are (were...read on) a little too large....

 

I decided to give Hendie's suggestion a go, and then realised I know absolutely nothing about soldering. I tried again and again to get some solder to stick to the tops of the brass rods, but all that stuck was little blobs here and there.....

 

 

 Not very pretty! Then I looked at the other end.....

 

 

Oh drat...( not quite the exact words, but you get the idea). It's warped!

 

 So that was left and I went for a pint (or 3).

 

Yesterday I removed all the brass rods and started to clean them up and straighten them (again). I made another core, then went for another pint. (or 2) 

 

 Finally, today I had another shot. I made sure the rods were straight, aligned them all, and then dropped the wrapped core onto them. A few minor adjustments, repeat for the other side, and we have this....

 

 

Much better! Now, how to ensure they all stay put...without solder!

Same idea, different medium - CA gel!

This was applied fairly generously to the ends, and will be left until tomorrow before I attempt to even up the rods and finish it off....

 

 

 I'm happy with that, and will be even happier if it works and I can file the ends level! the next set of brass rods will be cut fractionally shorter to (hopefully) negate the need for the filing!

 

Thanks for looking in!

 

Ian

 

(Off for a pint!)

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by limeypilot

[Martian]

Glad you got there in the end.

 

Martian

[pheonix]

I agree with Martian: persistence usually pays off in the end. Those rods look fine to me.

 

P

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Glad to see this one return to the fore, still following and maybe even understanding some of it too. 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Radiators looking great now - especially, no doubt, to the naked eye; cameras can make us all pretty harsh critics of "mistakes" that are actually really tiny and will never be noticed in real life.  

 

I love this build; a masterclass in taking a pretty ordinary (and that's being kind) kit and turning it into an excellent model.  Old Igor is one of my heroes (as he should be for anyone who has flown rotary-wing), so what's not to like about a truly bonkers early aircraft?

[Brandy]

8 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Radiators looking great now - especially, no doubt, to the naked eye; cameras can make us all pretty harsh critics of "mistakes" that are actually really tiny and will never be noticed in real life.  

 

I love this build; a masterclass in taking a pretty ordinary (and that's being kind) kit and turning it into an excellent model.  Old Igor is one of my heroes (as he should be for anyone who has flown rotary-wing), so what's not to like about a truly bonkers early aircraft?

Cheers Crisp!

 It was definitely a little bonkers, and years ahead of it's time. The first 4 engine aircraft, first bomb sight. The Grand, on which it was based, (1912!) had cabin heating and an onboard toilet! Luckily there is plenty of open space in those parts.....

 

It also had a lifting tail, very tricky to land from what I've read.

 

Ian

[TonyTiger66]

Great tenacity being displayed here Ian.

 

It's paying dividends too. Fingers crossed that the gel and rid ends will file ok (a diamond file would maybe be good here?).

 

I like the history too; I'm off to find out what a 1912 Grand is !

 

Best regards 

TonyT

[hendie]

sorry the soldering didn't turn out but it looks like you nailed it anyway.

[Brandy]

Well, nearly 3 months on and another build done, and I'm back on this one again. Every once in a while I need to actually finish something, so this may not be the last installment on this build!
 Whilst working on the radiators I paid a little more attention to trying to work out how they were mounted. That resulted in the realisation that the lower end was attached to the engine mounts - not possible with the way they were on the model! They should extend further aft and have a curved upper rear edge, as confirmed by photos. So, that left only one option, remove the engines and mounts, make new mounts, and refit it all.

 

 I managed to remove everything without any damage - a feat in itself!

 

 

 I then used the existing mounts to mark out the basics for a template, which I  tweaked as necessary, and used that to mark out the replacements.

 

 

 Repeat, cut out, sand, group together, sand to get them all the same (it sounds easy when you say it quickly!), repeat...etc...

and finally I had 8 new mounts as identical as I could possibly get them....

 

 

 I now need to file off part of the top at the front of 4 of them to let in a small square section rod to extend the top for the inner engines which were mounted slightly further forward..... then they need to be painted and refitted and I'll be back to where I left it 3 months ago!

 

Ian

[hendie]

s'funny how progress often means going backwards innit?

[Brandy]

4 hours ago, hendie said:

s'funny how progress often means going backwards innit?

It is indeed...see below!

 

 Unfortunately one of the drawbacks of letting a build sit for a while (apart from forgetting all the details you'd worked out..) is that sometimes when you come back to it, some areas jump out at you as "below standard" when you'd thought they were ok! (At least for me, and particularly with this build!). Consequently the first few posts are going to deal mainly with upgrading what I'd already done. I few things - apart from the engine bearers, need attention. The most serious was the lower wing rear mounting pin. The wings on the Muromets don't have backstagger, they are a rectangular section, but mounted at such an angle that they look to be staggered backwards. They didn't look quite right when I dry fitted them so I measured everything again and found that the rear pin for the lower wing was 1mm too high, so the angle of the lower wing was wrong. I thought about it for a while and decided a) it had to be corrected, and I couldn't pull the pin out for fear of disturbing detail inside the fuselage. So I bit the bullet and snipped the ends off! I redrilled immediately below the pin and as luck would have it, a .020" brass rod slipped easily right through the fuselage. It's slightly narrower than the original pin but should work ok.

 

 

 You can just see on that pic the snipped end of the original pin. You can also see the second issue I had - the terrible fit of the mechanics access panel to the wing! I applied PPP to both sides and will rescribe the panels later! The main cabin door also needed attention so PPP was also applied there.

 

 

 The underside has been giving me problems for a whilem due to the method I used to fit it (inlaying the floor instead of butting it up against the fuselage sides from underneath). This keeps resulting in the joint popping apart as it's handled. I think the best solution here is to add a sheet of .005" card to cover the whole underside.

 

 

 Finally today, as I was thinking about painting the engine bearers, I decided I would get the props ready for painting too, and then also decided that since I will be needing the struts soon, I might as well get those done. So I spent a couple of hours cutting them (all 24 of them!) from .020" x .060" rod, then paring the corners to round them off. That's all done, fortunately the struts are very simple staright ones, so all that needs doing now is adding the pins and painting them...

 

 

 

Ian

Edited December 1, 2017 by limeypilot

[TheBaron]

7 minutes ago, limeypilot said:

for a while (apart from forgetting all the details you'd worked out..) is that sometimes when you come back to it, some areas jump out at you as "below standard" when you'd thought they were ok! (At least for me, and particularly with this build!). Consequently the first few posts are going to deal mainly with upgrading what I'd already done

Sage words and I've positively no doubt but that I'll experience a similar existential crisis when I return to my C-119 build.

 

Delighted to see this up and running again Ian. 

Tony

[pheonix]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:32 PM, TheBaron said:

Sage words

 

Delighted to see this up and running again Ian. 

Tony

Somehow I had a feeling of deja vu when I read this too - and that is only after I have been away for a few days....!

 

Completely agree that it is really good to see this scratch build/kit being put back on to the front burner. It is a big project, but a worthwhile one.

 

P

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

On 01/12/2017 at 10:32 PM, TheBaron said:

Sage words and I've positively no doubt but that I'll experience a similar existential crisis when I return to my C-119 build.

 

Delighted to see this up and running again Ian. 

Tony

Ditto my Sea King... let alone Ark Royal or my Dad’s Barracuda...

[AdrianMF]

Nice to see this one back. I know what you mean about re-working!

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Brandy]

Thanks Gents, of course if I'd done it properly in the first place it would have made life a whole lot simpler.....

Anyway, not much progress to speak of, but a quick update anyway. The struts are finished! I cut a slot in each end of all 24 of the little s*** and inserted a piece of .010" brass wire, secured with CA. A quick dab of PPP over the top and a sand down should leave no trace of the incision. Paint will, of course, show whether I am correct in that assumption!

 

 

 I have also completed the corrections to the underside. A sheet of .010" card (I decided against the .005" as I could see work being needed to level off areas that saw a little too much glue and melted it...) was stuck on after cutting out the square for the bomb aimer's window, After leaving it to dry for a day, it was trimmed to shape and any loose edges treated with PlasticWeld. It was left another day before I added a skim of PPP and cleaned it all up.

 

 

 

 

 I think that's ready to be masked off and painted now so Friday should see an airbrush session on that and the start of all the wooden bits.

 

On another note, I just received the wire I ordered from the UK and it looks as though it should work nicely. It is 0.066mm Nickel Chrome wire and is annealed. I have some similar size stainless wire but it won't roll straight as it is too springy. A small piece was cut off and I rolled it under a metal rule - it straightened nicely! Better still, it retains enough springiness that it will stay straight if tapped across the end, so that should make attaching them much easier as it won't bend instantly when touched against a strut by accident. It is a dull silvery-grey colour, so a good colour for rigging too!

 

 

This is the stuff, available from wires.co.uk who also stock a huge range of wire, mesh, and other useful stuff - worth taking a look for anyone who could use such stuff in scratchbuilding etc! My 10m reel cost £10 plus £6.72 postage to the USA. Worth every penny to me, to have scale rigging wire that I can use where drilling the parts is not possible.

 

Thanks for looking in!

 

Ian