Scratch Build of 1951 Pullman Carriage

[Pete in Lincs]

I have sacrificed a small chicken (it wasn't very well anyway)

and have lighted/lit/enlightened? a dozen candles on an altar surrounded by

Airfix boxes in honour of the modeling Gods, in the hope that

they may bestow their graces upon your Pullman car.

 

 

 

 

[Brandy]

Oh carp!

 These things are sent to try us, and I'm sure you'll find a solution. Mine would simply be filler and sanding, but then then I'm a cheap sod at times....must be my Aberdonian mother's influence!  Oh, wait a sec.......

 

Ian 

[Bandsaw Steve]

Hello Hendie,

 

I've been thinking about your issue regarding how to make the interior visible while it's in a glass case. Here's a possible and, I think, simpler approach.

 

Take a series of good quality photos of all the detail you wish to show. Buy a digital photo frame (one of those l.e.d. photo frames that can display a series of digital photos). Mount the photo frame inside the glass case alongside the model. Switch it on. Then people can see model and the details without opening the case. There's also no moving parts.

 

If you wanted you could also intersperse reference and historical  photos of the real thing and some photos of the model under construction.

 

I would still make the roof removable, but just as a press / manual fit for the rare occasion that it's out of the case.

 

You would need access to the case to occasionally change batteries on the photoframe.

 

just a thought!

 

[hendie]

Thanks Reconcilor (or whatever you're going by these days).

A nice idea, particularly with the historical photo's.  I think I am leaning towards a hinged roof at the moment - but that is still a long way away and I'm not committed either way. 

I've been trying to source a company to make the transfers which has been a lot more difficult than I imagined, though I think I finally have identified one.  Their lead time however, is around 4 to 6 months which is a bit longer than I had hoped for.

I could go elsewhere for a faster turnaround, but there is one transfer which I just cannot get a decent quality photo of anywhere, and this company already does a version of it in 7mm scale. So I am assuming they have a master somewhere and will be able to scale to 1/32 without any difficulty.

More styrene was ordered this morning, brass will be ordered during the week and then I can have yet another bash at these darned side frames.  I also ordered some slightly thicker styrene to try out to see what difference that makes.

Then there's a bunch of PE parts that I need made so I need to get onto that as well.  I find I really have to be in the right mood to sit down in front of the computer to deal with CAD

 

[Kallisti]

Back when I did my Iron Man figure I had one spot that refused to accept paint, in fact it vigorously rejected it

 

 

There was some kind of white blemish in the red plastic that in the end I had to dig out and fill as no amount of filing would fix it.

Regarding the sink marks and reactions - how about using Alclad filler primer as a base and sanding down. May need to put a couple of layers on...

 

 

[hendie]

52 minutes ago, Kallisti said:

Regarding the sink marks and reactions - how about using Alclad filler primer as a base and sanding down. May need to put a couple of layers on...

 

hi Kallisti - it is alclad filler primer that I am using.  The problem i have with sanding is that i have a bunch of "C" channel framing on the reverse side - that means I cannot get an even pressure over the surface when sanding and it creates yet another set of problems.  I think a combination of thicker styrene / different bonding agent / less pressure when bonding will give me an acceptable (read "better" result).  I have confidence, misplaced though it may be.

 

So, onto today's little escapade with paints, pigments and problems.  Let's start off with what went well....

 

eh....

 

well...

 

uhmmnn...

 

 

Okay, now we've got that part behind us, let's carry on with what really happened...

 

The vestibule end was sanded down nice and smooth. A straightforward job that didn't take long at all. That was done a few nights ago.  Today, it was cleaned, dusted down and holding my breath.... I went for the respray.

 

 

Holy crappola.  Things just aren't going my way with this build are they ?  About the only part with a decent finish is the part that was sanded down.  The previous "good" finish has gone all phnargley

Based on that, it appears that the enamel paint is reacting with itself !  (By this time, the mojo is getting a little battered).

Okay, vestibule end is not back on the shelf while I rethink that approach.  I still have another one to make so I may just as well make two new ones.

 

On to the dreaded side frames. (by this time i have taken another deep breath).  This brought with it another whole new set of problems - have you ever tried masking a straight line nearly 600mm in length ?  (that's about 2 feet in Americanese) - Then another one and tried to keep them parallel ?

It didn't help that Cleetus here kept masking to the outside of the cream demarcation instead of the inside !  'duh!

Anyways, after a good 30 minutes I eventually had one side masked and ready to go.  By this time abandon was thrown to the wind and I had already decided that these side frames are going to be my test pieces - unless things go completely against plan and they turn out okay.

Rattle can shaked and rattled until the ball bearing wore out, finger depressed (not just my finger at this point!) and whooshy whooshy paint sprayed.... then demasked at the earliest opportunity.

 

 

On a cursory glance it sort of looks okay doesn't it.

 

And while we still have some tin canning effect going on, it is not as blatantly obvious as I thought it was going to be.

 

 

However, on closer inspection we can see that once again, there is some kind of reaction going on - and about a third of the way up from the bottom of that photo is yet another I-won't-take-paint spot.  Booger and bolloricks!

Overall, the finish is rather pants considering it had all been micro-meshed smooth.  Just as well, this is a test piece (now!)

 

 

Fear not! says I, and promptly start banging my head on the concrete floor in a typical Cleesesque fashion.

Pete - the chicken obviously wasn't the right kind... was it brown or white ?

 

So, moving on.... I've also been continuing to work on the transfer sheet, and am almost complete. That called for a quick print out to check scaling and to make sure everything fitted where it should. (...still a couple of transfers missing here)

 

 

The paint reaction can be seen better here just to the left of the Pegasus name plate.

 

 

All of this paint malarkey had my mind in a boil and I decided to try a different tack.  Up till now, I had been using the brown enamel straight from the rattle can. Probably not the best approach but I thought it was worth a try.  Now I know better.

While I was trying to sort out the paint colors some weeks ago, I had bought another color - "Italian Dark Brown" from Model Master. It looked worth a shot and by this time I had nothing to lose had I ?

I had bought it being under the impression that it was acrylic - and it wasn't. It was also a matt finish while I was looking for a gloss.

What the heck, let's try it anyway - I opened up my tin of humbrol enamel thinner to find that the inside of the can had corroded and I had lots of rusty floaters in the tin.  Nice one Humbrol!

Let's cut to the chase here... Upper is the brown enamel from the rattle can, and the lower is airbrushed Italian dark brown.  Whaddya know - I got a nice even decent finish all over - no reaction either ('cept from me).

 

 

The photo above doesn't really do the color any justice - artificial light and all that.   I had a rattle can of clear enamel gloss lying around so before the Italian brown even had time to cure I gave it a lashing of clear gloss - well, part of it at least - so I could see what the color change effect was like

 

 

Despite what the photo above shows, the two colors are in fact very close to one another.  Close enough for me to consider using the italian brown. It is certainly within the range of Pullman "Umber" shades that I have seen.

 

Thoroughly depressing huh ?   Well, not quite - despite almost nothing going right over the last few weeks, I do feel that I am making some headway - mainly by making mistakes and ruling things out.

 

Rattle cans are out!   at least for using to apply the paint.  I will do another test mule at the earliest opportunity using decanted brown from the rattle can to see what that turns out like - safe in the knowledge that I have the Italian Brown to fall back on (if I get hold of some not-rusty not-Humbrol enamel thinners)

The tin-canning effect is not as pronounced as I thought it was going to be, so with a different bonding agent, less pressure on the joint, and a bit of care, I think I can minimize that effect.

I will have two different thickness of styrene to use for the side frame to see which is better. Currently I am using 0.020" - about 0.5 mm.  I have also ordered 0.030" - about 0.75 mm.  Obviously, the thicker styrene means that the windows will sit further back from the outer surface, but it may look okay - only a test will tell.

 

Where are we now ?  well, the mojo is definitely not 100% but it is on the rebound so at least heading in the right direction.  It feels crap that I haven't made any real progress in the last few weeks, but I am finally getting to a point where I feel progress is forthcoming in the not too distant future. 

 

or perhaps just another few "learning opportunities" - who knows ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[larchiefeng]

Just a couple of random thoughts here; is it a possibility that the temperature and or humidity is having an affect on the paint?

Second, and I know that, this might not appeal to you right away but, have you considered using brass instead of plastic for the siding? I know that you have to have the windows cut out as well but a metal shop might be able to cut them out for you using a water jet or some other precise  method. 

Anyway, I know the brass sheet a completely different direction but it would address the wavy side problem. 

Keep up the great work!

[RichO]

At one time I had the same problems with my painting.  I was told that the effect was called "Orange Peel".  I was told it was caused from applying the top layer of paint over a layer of paint that wasn't quite dry. I don't know if that's what's happening hare or not.  Also consider what Larchiefeng has said.  Brass might work better.

[hendie]

23 hours ago, larchiefeng said:

Just a couple of random thoughts here; is it a possibility that the temperature and or humidity is having an affect on the paint?

 

I don't think so. I work in the basement and it's relatively cool down there - and I've never had any issues before.

 

 

23 hours ago, larchiefeng said:

Second, and I know that, this might not appeal to you right away but, have you considered using brass instead of plastic for the siding?

 

Way back when I was thinking about starting this build I did consider brass sheet for the sides but discarded the idea when I realized how expensive it was going to be.

I am now reconsidering that idea.  I have contact with a great EDM shop through work and I may ask them for a price.  I know it will not be cheap... I'm expecting about $200 or so.

However, I do know that they'll do a great job (as long as I specify it correctly).  So, as soon as I can get time, I'll get a drawing to them for a quote.

 

Of course, that brings up another potential set of issues.... I still need to solder brass channel on the reverse face to provide some structural strength - I just hope the heat generated by that doesn't cause any tin-canning

 

 

8 hours ago, RichO said:

 I was told it was caused from applying the top layer of paint over a layer of paint that wasn't quite dry. I don't know if that's what's happening hare or not.

 

I doubt it Rich, the first layer of paint had been on for at least a week. I think the rattle can puts out a large amount of solvent and it just reacted with the original paint.

[Bigdave22014]

5 hours ago, hendie said:

 

Of course, that brings up another potential set of issues.... I still need to solder brass channel on the reverse face to provide some structural strength - I just hope the heat generated by that doesn't cause any tin-canning

The best way to avoid this would be to "tack" solder it. A bit at the top, then the bottom, then in the middle, etc. Spread it out and let it cool between applications to prevent heat distortion.

This is the method I used when I was making "O" gauge models.

[Kallisti]

9 hours ago, hendie said:

I doubt it Rich, the first layer of paint had been on for at least a week. I think the rattle can puts out a large amount of solvent and it just reacted with the original paint.

 

In that case it might be worth decanting the paint from the rattle can and using it in the airbrush. I did this for my second Space:1999 Eagle transporter and it made controlling the paint so much easier.

 

Its simple to do, just get the plastic lid of the rattle can inside a plastic bag, put your hand with the rattle can in the plastic bag, very close to the lid and spray into the lid. Its  a bit messy, but you'll get liquid paint in the plastic lid which you can then pour into a jar. I filled 3 Tamiya bottles and only used 1.5. You can also use it to brush paint as well, to touch up small spots.

[Roy vd M.]

I must say that was an entertaining read about all kinds of disaster that may happen within the scope of one day. Fortunately it seems to have improved your mojo rather than broken it, which sounds good and effective lol. 

 

About working with brass... it isn't all that difficult to cut out the windows -if you work precise-. 

For me this worked:

1. Drilling small holes.


2. Connecting the holes by means of cuts. 


3. 'Lips' come into being. 


4. That way you can make more complex shapes, such as octagonals.


5. Using a photo etch bender you can bend the (pre-scribed) sides back and forth. They will come loose soon enough. 


6. That way you'll get straight borders on a flat base. On the photo: a comparison between my previously used method (cutting, left) to the one that worked as described above (scribing and folding, right). 


You can see that the holes were drilled too far outwardly; this was a test piece and the error can easily be prevented: drilling the holes more toward the center, wiggling the lips out as described and then tidying up the corners with a model file. 

[perdu]

Ah sorry I'm late

 

You have been having a time of it aint you?

 

If you find bending panels working on them why dont you embed the side of the panel in light sand so you can put equal pressure along all of the length, it should hold back the inside and stop it moving away from you if you support them in a shallow tray

 

The spots in the paint look like 'fish-eyes' to me

 

I have had them when working the paint inside the garage, it is always caused by silicon particles on the painted surface

Have you been spraying WD40 in your workspace?

 

Ask me how it has affected me later  (quite a lot later)

 

I like colo(u)r two, meself

 

Looks the bizness

[hendie]

On 6/21/2017 at 11:53 AM, Roy vd M. said:

About working with brass... it isn't all that difficult to cut out the windows -if you work precise-. 

 

It's even easier if you can get someone else to do it for you!   I contacted an EDM shop I've been using through work for a couple of years and it looks like they will do it for a very reasonable price.  They always do a great job and the more I thought about it - given the length of time I have worked on this, I want it to look the best it can.  I know getting these guys for make the side frames for me will result in a couple of perfect sides - so I'm going for it.  Brass side frames it shall be

However, I'm off to the "mistake on the lake" next week, followed by a week in the Big Easy the following week.  Then back for a few days, then off to Chicago.  Guess who's modeling time is going to be extremely limited ?  I don't even know if I'll be able to get the side frames ordered before I leave.  I guess a couple of weeks added to a three year build isn't really such a big deal.

 

On 6/21/2017 at 5:13 PM, perdu said:

Have you been spraying WD40 in your workspace?

 

Nope, nothing like that.

 

On 6/21/2017 at 5:13 PM, perdu said:

I like colo(u)r two, meself

 

Me too - but I'll need to take both out into natural light to better assess which one I'll end up using

 

 

[Roy vd M.]

Whether doing it yourself or having it done professionally, I think either way you've made the right decision to go for brass. In the end it may look nicer than plastic and, in my opinion more importantly, it will get you a much more realistic thickness of the walls so that you will have more room for all interior bits and pieces. And the thin walls will definitely look more realistic. To furthermore convince yourself of your decision, measure the thickness of the plastic sheet you were working with until now and multiply by 32... reasonable chance that won't be a scale-realistic outcome. 

 

I'm excited to see those brass walls!

[Nigel Heath]

Quote

Of course, that brings up another potential set of issues.... I still need to solder brass channel on the reverse face to provide some structural strength - I just hope the heat generated by that doesn't cause any tin-canning

 

I suspect you would get some distortion, presumably you would have to solder it with a blowtorch which obviously puts out a lot of heat. Maybe the low melting point solder I have used would be an option.

[Fastcat]

Hi Hendie,

                Soldering thin brass section to thin brass sheet shouldn't give you any problem with distortion. You could probably use a normal soldering iron but a temperature controlled iron would be a bonus. I wouldn't use multi-core solder, maybe go for a liquid flux like Carr's or a US railroad modellers equivalent. Using low temperature melting point solder is a good idea because you can get different grades so you can solder nearby with less risk of previous joints coming undone.

 

If you do use a torch, get a good make of micro-flame torch. I've soldered together p/e brass wing end-plates in 1/43 scale with a micro-flame torch without too much of a problem - you just have to be quick to remove the flame when the solder flows to avoid burning the solder!

 

You also need to give it a good scrub afterwards to get rid of any flux before painting but that applies to any type of flux. 

 

Dave 

[Mumbly]

A great way to adjust the temperature on a soldering iron is to wrap some copper wire around the base of the bit, the more or thicker the wire, the more energy required to heat the bit, so it runs cooler.  Trial and error helps here, too much wire and not enough heat will get into the brass, dry joints and no flow.  On big runs a flame might be your only option, or tin either side of the run, clamp with a wooden peg and then run the flame/iron over it again dabbing the solder in dots along the brass.

 

Used to use the wire trick on a 15W iron for white metal soldering where heat is the enemy.

 

Fastcat's suggestions are right, remember that flux is acid, and is for cleaning the joint as much as assisting the flow of the solder, the solder flows with heat first.

 

[Bigdave22014]

Erm, we're giving lots of tips about how to solder without "tin canning" the sides (including me) but why solder it?

As I understand it, it's not for load-bearing, just to reduce / eliminate flex so why not glue the strengtheners to the sides?

[Roy vd M.]

11 minutes ago, Bigdave22014 said:

Erm, we're giving lots of tips about how to solder without "tin canning" the sides (including me) but why solder it?

As I understand it, it's not for load-bearing, just to reduce / eliminate flex so why not glue the strengtheners to the sides?

 

Yes why not.

 

If you're going to glue, I'd recommend Everbuild Gator Glue (so not the white stuff). A couple of weeks ago I wrote a review about it here. 

[hendie]

On 6/19/2017 at 11:39 PM, Bigdave22014 said:

The best way to avoid this would be to "tack" solder it. A bit at the top, then the bottom, then in the middle, etc. Spread it out and let it cool between applications to prevent heat distortion.

 

A couple of experiments are called for methinks.

 

On 6/25/2017 at 1:24 PM, Nigel Heath said:

Maybe the low melting point solder I have used would be an option.

 

Good idea - but it seems to be akin to rocking horse poo over here. Got any good links ?

 

On 6/26/2017 at 6:05 AM, Fastcat said:

but a temperature controlled iron would be a bonus.

 

Got one!

 

On 6/27/2017 at 4:40 PM, Mumbly said:

Fastcat's suggestions are right, remember that flux is acid, and is for cleaning the joint as much as assisting the flow of the solder, the solder flows with heat first.

 

I always clean up with acetone afterwards

 

On 6/28/2017 at 0:05 PM, Bigdave22014 said:

As I understand it, it's not for load-bearing, just to reduce / eliminate flex so why not glue the strengtheners to the sides?

 

Good idea - worth investigating further

 

On 6/28/2017 at 0:17 PM, Roy vd M. said:

Yes why not.

 

If you're going to glue, I'd recommend Everbuild Gator Glue (so not the white stuff). A couple of weeks ago I wrote a review about it here. 

 

I think I have some of that - I'll look it out and do some testing

 

 

I'm just popping in between jaunts.  1st trip over - second trip in a few days, then back for a week, then off for another trip. At this rate I'll need to take vacation just to get some modeling done.

The brass channels and bits and bobs have arrived, though I still haven't ordered the side frames.  It shouldn't take long for them to arrive once I've ordered them though.

In the meantime, I have been fiddling around with some of the other fiddly bits.   There's nothing particularly photogenic at this point, so no photo's for a while yet.  Suffice to say I am still beavering away at the car.

 

 

[Nigel Heath]

Quote

Good idea - but it seems to be akin to rocking horse poo over here. Got any good links ?

 

I got mine from Eileen's Emporium. They do a whole range of metal work and soldering accoutrements which I think you would find interesting.

[Bigdave22014]

Low temperature solder was re-formulated a few years ago due its very high lead content (much higher than "normal" solder) and the new version doesn't seem as good to my mind. Might be the reason why it's so hard to get hold of over there.

[hendie]

I think I have found a solution - Tix solder which is designed for jewelery seems to be about the lowest melt I can get.   I shall order some, give it a whirl, and report back.

 

In the meantime...  with t'interwebby all in a kerfuffle over PhotoRansomBucketThief, I laid back and silently doffed a cap to Perdu who had previously pointed me to Postimage for hosting of the images, though how long before theyall follow suit, who knows.

 

Buffers!  That's what's important! Buffers!  Them things on the end of trains which stop them crashing into each other.  One on each corner there is.  So I needed 4

This is another one of those jobs that I had been putting off for some time, though I'm not really sure why.  It was (so far!) a lot easier than I imagined it would be.  My original plan was to make one good one and use that as a master to cast more in resin.  However, after I made the first one and realized just how easy it was, I decided to continue and use brass for all 4 buffers.

I printed out a buffer at the right scale, taped that to some styrene and filed that to shape.  Then, digging through my scrap bin I found an earlier abortive attempt at a bogie side frame from way, way back in time.  The brass was about the thickness I was looking for, so I chopped out a section, used the styrene template and scribed around the perimeter of the buffer.  I used a sweetheart file to get the rough shape before switching to a finer tooth to get the final shape.

***edited*** "sweetheart" is NOT the correct term for an illegitimate file begads!

 

 

The brass was a bit battered which didn't really concern me - have you ever looked at the condition of those buffers ?

Rinse and repeat several times....

 

 

Once I had the shapes all looking similar (or as best I could manage) I had to add some curvature to the buffers.  This was accomplished by first bending the buffer around the handle of my razor saw.  That was then flattened slightly in the vice before adding a final curve to each end of the buffer.

 

Next stage was to cut out some small lengths of brass tube to act as a mounting point. These were ca'd into place, as close to the center as I could guesstimate (I really should have marked them out better) - that was followed by a generous helping of Milliput to fill out the form.  As the real buffers are big humongous castings, the brass by itself didn't look convincing - the milliput helped add some beef to the shape.  It looks kind of nasty here, but should shape down nicely later. (My trial version is on the far right)

 

 

After some gentle sanding and filing, and getting the first one looking really good, I found that all the handling made the milliput pop off the brass buffer at the slightest opportunity.  Ouch !

So, superglue was called into action once again, this time to glue the milliput back into place on the buffer.  Once glued in place, another sanding brought the buffer back to the land of bufferdom. 

Small slices of brass tube were called into play to look like collars and slid over some brass rod which was in turn, inserted into the buffer.  Center shot - rear view of a buffer - dry fitted at the moment.

I know these are not 100% accurate but it appears that there are more flavors of buffers out there than you can shake a stick at.  The main profile is good though - the oval with a flat top - as long as that's good I am fine.  Once the buffers are in place, it will be very hard to see behind them, but I think this is realistic enough.

 

 

... and more dry fitting - mainly to give myself a lift and some encouragement to keep going with this.

 

 

Even though these would have been relatively easy to cast, I think brass is the way to go here as I am not sure that resin buffers would have held up over time.

I doubt I'll get any more done before going on vacation, so... until next time....

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by hendie

[RichO]

The buffers look like they should have given you a good lift.  Nice job.  Get a better lift on vacation.  Have Fun!!