Are Things Really This Bad?

[JohnT]

Or is it more sensational reporting?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30338659

[arni]

Well generally there is no smoke without fire........

[colin]

My son's in the Marine's and has recently come back from exercise in America, multi national, and their kit for what the American's deemed an elite fighting force was thought way below standards that they would find acceptable.

So as the saying go's where there's smoke etc etc

edit; was beaten to the 'where's there's smoke' saying

[whitestar12chris]

To be honest nothing surprises me re our armed forces, the penny pinching polititicians have gradually degraded our services over the years to this.

We had the TSR2, a world beater, scraped by labour to buy American F-111's, which never came off. Landing us with the tornado project a poor TSR2 replacement by all accounts.

Step by step they have bypassed home grown aviation, shipbuilding and so on, through countless different projects and our servicemen have suffered as a result, it should not be make the best of what you have, it should be heres the best, use it.

This goes across all arms of the forces, stick a politician on the front line and see what happens.

Chris

[Troffa]

Things must be pretty bad if anyone on Shiny Two is airing their gripes to the media. Wouldn't like to be under that particular microscope at the moment.

And as I expected, the inevitable response on ARRSE....not much sympathy over there!

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/raf-morale-failure-at-akrotiri.223094/

[Panzer Vor!!!]

We have a Navy that has Destroyers waiting for a sister ship to come home so we raid it for spares

RFA ships doing guard ship because no warship is available

We send warships out with no sonar because its u/s to areas where no submarines are active

During the civil war in Libya our some of our ships had no AA missiles but were still on duty off the Libyan coast

I think we better armed in the 30s

[DAG058]

My god. Only goes to show how pathetic the RAF truly is.

[Shane]

My son's in the Marine's and has recently come back from exercise in America, multi national, and their kit for what the American's deemed an elite fighting force was thought way below standards that they would find acceptable.

Not unusual. Back in my day (ummm, thirty years ago) the USMC thought exactly the same about our kit.

No ice cream maker!

Shane

[colin]

Not unusual. Back in my day (ummm, thirty years ago) the USMC thought exactly the same about our kit.

No ice cream maker!

Shane

Agree Shane, as the saying go's about them 'all the gear but no idea' what was worrying though was our poor body armor, steel plate still ?

[depressed lemur]

Just remember, your weapons are all supplied by the lowest bidder.

[SleeperService]

Yet again the crabs prove they are nothing more than the mildly aggressive wing of EasyJet.

That has to be the funniest one liner I've read in a while

IMHO it's another facet of the government that is rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.

We have destroyers and frigates that have rather limited offensive capabilities, a lot of effort to get a medium gun and helicopter somewhere,

The Air force with Typhoons and Tornadoes suitable for a war that Thankfully never came, anything vaguely useful for dealing with nasty men on the ground was dumped as they were in constant demand.

The Army has managed to procure decent sleeping bags, at last, but very little else. One helicopter is too small for most purposes, others too large and the ones in demand are clapped out.

Meanwhile back at home management and consultants are retained while the people who actually do the work are chopped or out-sourced (so two sets of desk jockeys can ride the gravy train).

By rights we should all be rioting in the streets and declaring open season on the few who are making everybody's life Hell.

Still off to the Coventry show on Sunday. Lightning and Vampire and Hunter

[Jinxman]

..and don't forget many of our NATO partners are in exactly the same boat, run down capabilities and lack of funding, etc. I wonder where it will all lead?

[XV107]

My god. Only goes to show how pathetic the RAF truly is.

Does it? Or does it show

1. One individual having a bit of a drip in an unwise breach of the DIN covering contact with the media.

2. A night shift which got fed up of Sandwich, Cheese Possessed as the sole feeding option for x many days? I'm not saying that is what happened, but 2*s, even the most likely candidate, don't go breaking into spare DFID ration packs on the basis of someone complaining that today's night shift meal (sandwiches again) is a bit rubbish. I suspect the comment about food also has an element of criticism of PAYD and/or contractorisation. If the complaint about retail is about a lack of (say) toothpaste or shower gel, is that pathetic? That would be a little different from complaining about a lack of (say) micorwave ready meals/ Train Spotters' Monthly/ cheap electrical gadgets, I'd contend.

And let's not pretend that this is unique to the crustacean throng - remember the soldiers who complained about the lack of toilet paper just prior to Iraq 2003, getting short shrift from CGS? Who then got short shrift from some on Arrse for not caring about his men...

3. A journalist taking what's clearly meant to be stoical humour (the T-shirts) and writing it up in a manner suggesting that the MoD is clearly dismissing it as banter when it is in fact... well, banter actually, as the journalist (a former Army officer) ought to know...

4. One individual having a private moan to a friend/loved one and said friend/loved one has passed the letter on to the press?

We don't know for certain.

4 seems possible, as per the Loden incident - drips in an email about the quality of air support (replete with an array of errors) in private, one of recipients leaks it to the press, and we have the 'utterly, utterly useless' saga - ending with an 'utterly, utterly finished' aspect to Jamie Loden's promotion prospects as a result when it wasn't his fault that the mail got into the public domain. It may well be that the Sgt referred to is unaware of or doesn't care that there is a DIN which forbids this sort of thing.

In any event, slating the entire RAF for being pathetic because of one person complaining and an AVM deciding that a break from sandwiches might be useful seems to stretch the evidence a bit too far for anything other than the purpose of journalism.

The 'Diamond fleet' has been known about for years and has been mentioned on several occasions in the likes of Air Forces Monthly; the '16 out of 102' line is a classic instance of a journalist not getting the point of Force Elements at Readiness (FE@R) and the number of airframes in use (with a grand total of 3 squadrons plus the OCU, the chances of anything like all 102 airframes being in use is a tad slim).

Smoke - yes. But is there fire, or is it journalists popping smoke, or is the fire simply the sooties/fairies et al warming their hands round a brazier in between cracking on with the job and complaining that Sgt Bloggs is a whinging onanist?

We don't know the full story...

[Barrovian]

Life in blue suit.........

[Greg B]

Snigger, whoever wrote that letter with those drips needs a size 13 readjustment. No hospital and they are loading ammunition? If there is an incident, the hospital will not be needed, just some shovels, brooms and gash bags. Endless cheese sandwiches? Never had a horror bag on tour before? How about 40 days of the same menu rat pack on the ground in Iraq and living out of a bergan. It must be terrible, being on an island 300 miles away from the lines and having to sleep in a bed every night, access to showers, pool, cinema etc.

But I'm afraid that some of the moans sound all too familiar. In the Falklands, the RAF class it as an operational tour (extra cash and allowances etc), the permanent staff from the Army take their wives and kids and its classed as a respite posting away from the tour intervals. The watch keepers there have had to recently change shifts because a RAF officer complained that the 12 hour shifts were in breach of the European working hour requirements, therefore dropped to 8 and more people now having to be roped into it to cover! Of course, conveniently forgetting that is an "operational tour", 6 or 12 weeks.

The few must be spinning in their graves.

[Dave Wilson]

Can't see what the problem is. Services have always moaned, it goes with signing on the dotted. Find me an Army, Marine or Navy type that doesn't whinge. If I was some sort of commander I would be seriously worried if my blokes stopped whining. It seems like situation normal to me.

[tomprobert]

What irks me is the fact that our esteemed 'leaders' seem to think we are still a world superpower and therefore think we can act like one. With armed forces cut to the bone, and with probably more cuts to come, we're like the classic playground loudmouth - when it comes to the crunch we simply haven't got the hardware to back ourselves up. Unserviceable aircraft, aircraft carriers with no planes, which also won't have enough aircraft in the future, buying reconnaissance/ECM aircraft from the US which are older and less capable than the product we had produced ourselves at a cost that ran into £billions and only to end up on the scrap heap... I could go on, and on, and on. The incompetence from government is utterly astonishing.

I really feel sorry for the men and women who put their lives on the line for our country and yet have no backing whatsoever from those in their comfy chairs in Westminster in areas where it really matters: equipment. If the politicians want to send our troops, sailors and air personnel into battle they should make sure they have the best possible equipment and have enough of it to get the job done without the problems we so often read about. Money should be no object. If we can't afford it (which we clearly can't) we should keep out and let others with the right equipment and large enough military budgets to sort other peoples' problems out.It's about time the government took a reality check in my opinion.

I shudder to think what would happen if we came up against a 'first world' enemy... we would really be caught with our pants down... just like the 1930's all over again.

[PhantomBigStu]

There is no smoke without fire, and given the poor state of affairs this could well be true, but never forget that a key tool of politics is too 'leak' how bad things are in the hope of getting funding increases, the truth as ever is probably in the middle, things aren't great but not total dire

[LeVi Tophatter]

..and don't forget many of our NATO partners are in exactly the same boat, run down capabilities and lack of funding, etc. I wonder where it will all lead?

... Some sort of centralised organisation where individual National Insignia are no longer required... Crud, my foil hat slipped off again...

[DAG058]

Does it? Or does it show

1. One individual having a bit of a drip in an unwise breach of the DIN covering contact with the media.

2. A night shift which got fed up of Sandwich, Cheese Possessed as the sole feeding option for x many days? I'm not saying that is what happened, but 2*s, even the most likely candidate, don't go breaking into spare DFID ration packs on the basis of someone complaining that today's night shift meal (sandwiches again) is a bit rubbish. I suspect the comment about food also has an element of criticism of PAYD and/or contractorisation. If the complaint about retail is about a lack of (say) toothpaste or shower gel, is that pathetic? That would be a little different from complaining about a lack of (say) micorwave ready meals/ Train Spotters' Monthly/ cheap electrical gadgets, I'd contend.

And let's not pretend that this is unique to the crustacean throng - remember the soldiers who complained about the lack of toilet paper just prior to Iraq 2003, getting short shrift from CGS? Who then got short shrift from some on Arrse for not caring about his men...

3. A journalist taking what's clearly meant to be stoical humour (the T-shirts) and writing it up in a manner suggesting that the MoD is clearly dismissing it as banter when it is in fact... well, banter actually, as the journalist (a former Army officer) ought to know...

4. One individual having a private moan to a friend/loved one and said friend/loved one has passed the letter on to the press?

We don't know for certain.

4 seems possible, as per the Loden incident - drips in an email about the quality of air support (replete with an array of errors) in private, one of recipients leaks it to the press, and we have the 'utterly, utterly useless' saga - ending with an 'utterly, utterly finished' aspect to Jamie Loden's promotion prospects as a result when it wasn't his fault that the mail got into the public domain. It may well be that the Sgt referred to is unaware of or doesn't care that there is a DIN which forbids this sort of thing.

In any event, slating the entire RAF for being pathetic because of one person complaining and an AVM deciding that a break from sandwiches might be useful seems to stretch the evidence a bit too far for anything other than the purpose of journalism.

The 'Diamond fleet' has been known about for years and has been mentioned on several occasions in the likes of Air Forces Monthly; the '16 out of 102' line is a classic instance of a journalist not getting the point of Force Elements at Readiness (FE@R) and the number of airframes in use (with a grand total of 3 squadrons plus the OCU, the chances of anything like all 102 airframes being in use is a tad slim).

Smoke - yes. But is there fire, or is it journalists popping smoke, or is the fire simply the sooties/fairies et al warming their hands round a brazier in between cracking on with the job and complaining that Sgt Bloggs is a whinging onanist?

We don't know the full story...

It all shows a complete lack of leadership, right down to the lowest level. If these crabs can't handle living on RAF Akrotiri (is that the one with beds, scoff houses, shops, phones, Internet and pubs?!) the problems should be getting identified and any commander worth his salt should be jumping all over it.

Ok, I'm sure not all the RAF are pathetic, however I'm sure they wouldn't know a real tour if it ran up behind them and nicked their cheese sandwiches!

Edited December 6, 2014 by DAG058

[XV107]

'These crabs':

So you know that it was more than one really squealing about it? As opposed to (say) one whining like an over-revved 2-stroke engine and six of his mates agreeing with him largely since agreement would shut him up quicker?

You know for certain that the squadron chain of command was aware that the bloke was dripping about this?

I can think of one instance (involving the Army) in which a soldier's rather pushy mother delivered a similar letter complaining about poor morale, rubbish accommodation (in a new SLAM block), useless food under PAYD, etc to her MP, asking what said elected representative was going to do about it?

The MP forwarded the letter to either a 1* or 2* of his vague acquaintance (I forget whether the chap had picked up his second star at that point). Only two people were aware of the letter, namely the soldier and his Mum....

Now, it may well be the case that there has been an utter breakdown in the CoC, but my point is that you're tossing these criticisms around without knowing the full story, however much the BBC might wish us to believe that this is the full story.

Sweeping generalisations are all very well, but they can rebound very quickly - the strength of evidence so far, if accepted as good enough to draw such far reaching conclusions, would lead to the view that

1. Almost all members of the QLR in 2003 were war criminals;

2. That all Paras are educationally sub-normal, violent thugs and

3. That the SAS has lived largely off its reputation since 1980, with Kiwi Hunt's death, the shambles that was Op MIKADO, Bravo Two Zero illustrating the fact that they have good PR, while the SBS cracks on with the job and gets things done.

All of the above are caricatures of the truth (although in case 1, the failure of the CoC at all levels was utterly breath-taking), but unless you look a bit further than the press coverage/comments on the Army Rumour Service....

That's my point. You may be completely correct, but we don't have the evidence as yet to be sure that this isn't another 'Wasn't quite expecting that to happen' involving a well-meaning but idiotic leaking of private information (like the Loden case - he was a bit too trusting of at least one of the contacts in his email distribution list, but not an idiot by any means [our paths had crossed before his unwelcome brush with fame])

Edited December 6, 2014 by XV107

[Greg B]

'These crabs':

So you know that it was more than one really squealing about it? As opposed to (say) one whining like an over-revved 2-stroke engine and six of his mates agreeing with him largely since agreement would shut him up quicker?

You know for certain that the squadron chain of command was aware that the bloke was dripping about this?

I can think of one instance (involving the Army) in which a soldier's rather pushy mother delivered a similar letter complaining about poor morale, rubbish accommodation (in a new SLAM block), useless food under PAYD, etc to her MP, asking what said elected representative was going to do about it?

The MP forwarded the letter to either a 1* or 2* of his vague acquaintance (I forget whether the chap had picked up his second star at that point). Only two people were aware of the letter, namely the soldier and his Mum....

Now, it may well be the case that there has been an utter breakdown in the CoC, but my point is that you're tossing these criticisms around without knowing the full story, however much the BBC might wish us to believe that this is the full story.

Sweeping generalisations are all very well, but they can rebound very quickly - the strength of evidence so far, if accepted as good enough to draw such far reaching conclusions, would lead to the view that

1. Almost all members of the QLR in 2003 were war criminals;

2. That all Paras are educationally sub-normal, violent thugs and

3. That the SAS has lived largely off its reputation since 1980, with Kiwi Hunt's death, the shambles that was Op MIKADO, Bravo Two Zero illustrating the fact that they have good PR, while the SBS cracks on with the job and gets things done.

All of the above are caricatures of the truth (although in case 1, the failure of the CoC at all levels was utterly breath-taking), but unless you look a bit further than the press coverage/comments on the Army Rumour Service....

That's my point. You may be completely correct, but we don't have the evidence as yet to be sure that this isn't another 'Wasn't quite expecting that to happen' involving a well-meaning but idiotic leaking of private information (like the Loden case - he was a bit too trusting of at least one of the contacts in his email distribution list, but not an idiot by any means [our paths had crossed before his unwelcome brush with fame])

Spoilsport, letting common sense get in the way if Crab Bashing!

[JohnT]

Looks like the other side of the story here

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30358168

[XV107]

Spoilsport, letting common sense get in the way if Crab Bashing!

Sorry, sir... Won't happen again.... <shuffles off quietly>

[Mike]

C'mon, why do we only choose to believe the press when it suits us?

Can we also keep the political digs out of this... we already know that all politicians are useless.