eng Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Might just be me being a bi thick or having missed something along the way but I thought the current Tornado overall grey scheme was medium sea grey? I've just acquired the new Xtradecal RAF Update sheet with the 617 Sqn special scheme and they have the colour call out as camouflage grey, i.e the same as the Typhoon's. I had it in my head that the GR.4's were slightly darker, with the usual mis-match of different panels as "camouflage"! Can someone please put me out of my misery and confirm which is correct. Many thanks, Eng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) tornados are overall MSG, though many if not all have odd panels and occasionally tanks that are still in the old colours (upper Dark Sea Grey, underside Dark Camoflage Grey) as you can see from this pic, few panels on the spine are the same as the nose which is DSG https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7292/8747728456_5825cdc975_z.jpg only tornados whihc have been camouflage grey were F3s in the last few years of service Edited November 30, 2014 by PhantomBigStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eng Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Thanks for the info, pretty much as I thought but you doubt yourself when you buy aftermarket decals and the instructions tell you otherwise. It was specifically the 617 Sqn GR.4 on the decal instructions that was marked up as Camo grey, but you wouldn't paint one jet out of a whole fleet in a different colour! Thanks again for your help, Rgds Eng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Eng, Check my Dambusters Tornado build thread, I just posted this recently, which I believe suggests that the 617 Anniversary Tornados are NOT Medium Sea Grey...far from it in fact. The contrast between colurs on the Skyshadow pod is the giveaway. I think the colour is nearer to Barley Grey, or whatever is used on the Typhoon. No photo of the Anniversary aircraft I have - whether taken by myself or found on the internet matches anywhere near MSG - and even my MSG is lightened to account for preshading and scale efect too... So now I've got a problem. Concensus was that the GR4 is painted in Medium Sea Grey, and this seemed to be right according to the sample pics I took at Duxford (MSG, Neutral Grey, maybe a bit of light grey in the mix too, but basically Vallejo MSG was close enough):So I used the MSG from the sample, and mixed in 30% sky grey to lighten it to compensate for the dark preshading I intended to use, and also to lessen the scale effect which tends to make colours on small models look darker.Problem is, it's way too dark. Here are the stores compared with a photo (LloydH's photo actually):Obviously the comparison is a colour balance nightmare, but based on the contrast between the nose of the Skyshadow pod and the body, the grey is way, way too dark; the tail graphics will look totally wrong in terms of contrast next to MSG.I don't think the GR.4 in the photo is anything like Medium Sea Grey, and to be honest, I've now got no idea what it should be, so I'm stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) It is painted in Medium Sea Grey. This is the standard colour scheme for the Tornado. It's not in Camo. Grey. The photo posted above shows typical faded conditions. Look at the contrast between the radome and the main airframe. This is typical of the whole fleet. To see the difference between the shades take a look and compare photo's of Tornado F3's originally in Camo(Barley) Grey, and then in MSG, or at various photo's of early grey Lightnings. When first applied the demarcation between the two shades was very apparent, after time the two shaded blended together. Here's another colour photo on ABPics...... http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1428000/ Edited December 7, 2014 by Bill Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 It is painted in Medium Sea Grey. This is the standard colour scheme for the Tornado. It's not in Camo. Grey. The photo posted above shows typical faded conditions. Look at the contrast between the radome and the main airframe. This is typical of the whole fleet. To see the difference between the shades take a look and compare photo's of Tornado F3's originally in Camo(Barley) Grey, and then in MSG, or at various photo's of early grey Lightnings. When first applied the demarcation between the two shades was very apparent, after time the two shaded blended together. Here's another colour photo on ABPics...... http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1428000/ That's fine, but if it's faded, the colour isn't Medium Sea Grey anymore. Question is, what colour is it? I already added 30% light sky grey to my MSG, to lighten it, but it's still way too dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) That's fine, but if it's faded, the colour isn't Medium Sea Grey anymore. Question is, what colour is it? I already added 30% light sky grey to my MSG, to lighten it, but it's still way too dark.It is still Medium Sea Grey! Just faded. You seem to have matched the tanks to Dark Camo Grey anyway, so they will be darker! Try comparing the colour to that of the picture I posted?This is clearly MSG with three Dark Sea Grey panels on the fuselage spine. Tamiya MSG is a good match.... Edited December 9, 2014 by Bill Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 It is still Medium Sea Grey! Just faded. You seem to have matched the tanks to Dark Camo Grey anyway, so they will be darker! Try comparing the colour to that of the picture I posted? This is clearly MSG with three Dark Sea Grey panels on the fuselage spine. Tamiya MSG is a good match.... Hmm, that's a bit like saying pink is just faded red! Question is, what is the nearest grey to faded MSG? The tanks weren't matched to anything really, but were painted in lightened MSG, but are still too dark. I'll just have to lighten the MSG even more I guess. The only real test in terms of the photo is to get the contrast on the Skyshadow pod about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Hmm, that's a bit like saying pink is just faded red! Question is, what is the nearest grey to faded MSG? The tanks weren't matched to anything really, but were painted in lightened MSG, but are still too dark. I'll just have to lighten the MSG even more I guess. The only real test in terms of the photo is to get the contrast on the Skyshadow pod about right. Very true, but you need to start with the correct colour in the first place!Simple answer is, and at the risk of me repeating myself here...use Tamiya Medium Sea Grey. ....stores should have been in the same shade, or if in the earlier scheme DARK Camouflage Grey. If you need to fade the MSG a bit, add a drop or two of white 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 There's a picture on the RAF website showing this aircraft together with a few Typhoons and the difference between the MSG on the Tornado and the Camouflage Grey on the Typhoon is clear: http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/the-raf-at-riat-22072013 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Very true, but you need to start with the correct colour in the first place! Simple answer is, and at the risk of me repeating myself here...use Tamiya Medium Sea Grey. ....stores should have been in the same shade, or if in the earlier scheme DARK Camouflage Grey. If you need to fade the MSG a bit, add a drop or two of white Yes, I've been using Medium Sea Grey (lightened a bit) exclusively so far i.e. on the stores and cockpit - Vallejo, not Tamiya, but according to my airbsushed samples they are very close anyway. By the time I'm happy with the shade I'll need a new bottle of paint at this rate! There's a picture on the RAF website showing this aircraft together with a few Typhoons and the difference between the MSG on the Tornado and the Camouflage Grey on the Typhoon is clear: http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/the-raf-at-riat-22072013 Is the C-17 in the background "unfaded" Medium Sea Grey I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Is the C-17 in the background "unfaded" Medium Sea Grey I wonder? No, that would be in Grey FS 36173, darker than medium sea grey. Not too different from the Dark Camouflage Grey that IIRC is used on the radome of the Tornado, although radome colours always vary quite a lot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Yes, I've been using Medium Sea Grey (lightened a bit) exclusively so far i.e. on the stores and cockpit - Vallejo, not Tamiya, but according to my airbsushed samples they are very close anyway. By the time I'm happy with the shade I'll need a new bottle of paint at this rate! Is the C-17 in the background "unfaded" Medium Sea Grey I wonder? Well, that's your choice Dr gn. You asked a question, you have the answers. Its up to you now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Might just be me being a bi thick or having missed something along the way but I thought the current Tornado overall grey scheme was medium sea grey? I've just acquired the new Xtradecal RAF Update sheet with the 617 Sqn special scheme and they have the colour call out as camouflage grey, i.e the same as the Typhoon's. I had it in my head that the GR.4's were slightly darker, with the usual mis-match of different panels as "camouflage"! Can someone please put me out of my misery and confirm which is correct. Many thanks, Eng Eng, Wow, I just realised: Sorry for the thread hijack - I thought this was one of my Tornado threads - I've lost track. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eng Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Hey no worries at all mate, grey-t discussion going on here - sorry could not resist that one!!! I really think it will ultimately come down to what you're happy to settle with in the end. The link that Giorgio N put up with the 617 jet and the Typhoons really does highlight the difference between the MSG and Camo (Barley) grey. The other pic that Bill linked to equally shows the more stark contrast between the Dark sea grey and the MSG, which I think really does look like MSG in that pic. Buy some more MSG, lighten it and give it a go! Don't know if you have such a thing but an old scrap kit always makes a good test subject, I've got an old Italeri GR.7 that has so many layers of paint it doesn't actually look like a Harrier anymore! Worst thing you have to go over it again. Rgds Eng 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I've been playing with mixes this evening. The fact is that, at least when compared with the photos I have - including the Airfix box art photo (which is in fact the wrong aircraft for the kit decals ), MSG lightened with white is not the correct grey, no matter how toned down it is. The best base colour I can get so far is Vallejo Light Grey, Lightened further with 25% White. The lighter panels I'll try at 50% white, and the darker panels 0%. The much darker panels on the spine and the nose, I'll worry about later. The mixes, when applied over a panel line preshade might look OK. Yes, I'll try these colours tomorrow evening on the Airfix GR4 kit I bought for the decals; its not much use for anything else. At the end of the day I'll be happy with good grey/detail contrasts. Getting correct contrast and tone will be impossible for me I think. One thing seems certain, the MSG on the original aircraft is very faded! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 It's not only a matter of fading: MSG is one of those colors that can be very deceiving! It looks light together with darker colors (think spitfire undersides) but can look dark when with lighter colors (air defense schemes for example). These greys also seem to vary depending on the light conditions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) The problem is trying to match a commercially available paint issued by a modelling company with a colour reproduced in a colour photo of a real aircraft. I've been playing with mixes this evening. The fact is that, at least when compared with the photos I have - including the Airfix box art photo (which is in fact the wrong aircraft for the kit decals ), MSG lightened with white is not the correct grey, no matter how toned down it is. The best base colour I can get so far is Vallejo Light Grey, Lightened further with 25% White. The lighter panels I'll try at 50% white, and the darker panels 0%. The much darker panels on the spine and the nose, I'll worry about later. The mixes, when applied over a panel line preshade might look OK. Yes, I'll try these colours tomorrow evening on the Airfix GR4 kit I bought for the decals; its not much use for anything else. At the end of the day I'll be happy with good grey/detail contrasts. Getting correct contrast and tone will be impossible for me I think. One thing seems certain, the MSG on the original aircraft is very faded! I think the problem is that you're trying to match a colour on a real aircraft from a photo. The fact is that the RAF ( along with most if not all other forces) use standard set down colours. Manufacturers / MUs are given colour references to paint the aircraft in. In the case of the MoD it's normally BS381c or BS4800. There is an 'order' of shades used, often in conjunction with each other, so...Dark Sea Grey would be used with Dark Camouflage Grey. The former on upper surfaces so when viewed from above, and in lighter conditions it would tend to blend in with the lower surface colours, to give an overall uniform colour scheme. The next darker shade is Medium Sea Grey. This was used with Camouflage/Barley Grey, the next lighter shade used was Light Aircraft Grey. Tornado F3s were originally in Barley/Camo grey on top but we're repainted in MSG before being retired. Tornado GR4s were Dark Sea Grey over Dark Camo Grey, and were repainted in MSG. Typhoons are in Camo Grey. These are standard colours. All aircraft are painted in these schemes dependent on their type. The secret when painting RAF models is to use a reputable manufacturer and sticking with it. Personally I use Xtracolr/Xtracrylic. If you can't get these Humbrol colours are generally okay. Now having said that, I find Xtracrylic MSG to be a bit too dark, BUT Tamiya MSG IS an excellent match - I may have mentioned this before? I have no idea how accurate any other paint manufacturers are, but then I have no need too worry about them! There really is no need to make life complicated, by trying to match colours with a photo. You only have to look at the differences in the different photos of the same Tornado in this thread to see what a futile exercise that is! The Tornado in question is/was Medium Sea Grey. Not Camo or any other grey.....the same as all other Tornado's. Fading. Paints of course do fade, you only have to look at the real thing to see that. But, in modelling form you just need to start off with the actually colour and add a few drops of white to lighten it. It's really that simple. And, the nose cap on the Skyshadow pod is RAM , so is generally a very Dark Grey. NATO black is a good match. Edited December 10, 2014 by Bill Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_gn Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I think if an aircraft is faded to the degree this one appears to be, the exact shade of grey you start with is pretty much irrelevant so long as the end result is something like the right tone. Add to that lighter and darker random panels, preshading and possibly a wash, and it becomes less relevant still. I've got a strategy now, and a mix I'm happy with. I've tested it out on some scrap parts. It's not going to be easy... BTW the Skyshadow nose is definitely a dark green colour, not grey - the Revell instructions say olive green plus black: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I think if an aircraft is faded to the degree this one appears to be, the exact shade of grey you start with is pretty much irrelevant so long as the end result is something like the right tone. Add to that lighter and darker random panels, preshading and possibly a wash, and it becomes less relevant still. I've got a strategy now, and a mix I'm happy with. I've tested it out on some scrap parts. It's not going to be easy... BTW the Skyshadow nose is definitely a dark green colour, not grey - the Revell instructions say olive green plus black: That photo is a far better match, to my eyes anyway, to the actual colour, rather than the photo you were trying to match it too earlier. I think it important to start with the correct colour first. The Greys in the RAF's schemes have a certain 'hue' to them, this would remain even with additional fading. The panels on the spine are in Dark Sea Grey, from the original paint scheme, so you should really start with that actual colour. Still, glad you have your strategy for painting and glad to have been of assistance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 thread hijack again, doing my own couple of GR4s, aside from the conversion set from freighdogs are there any aftermarket stuff needed, the ones I'm doing are the 2 from Xtradecal RAF update 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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