147 (Essex Yeomanry) Regt RHA

[Phil Evans]

Hi,

I've been reading quite a bit about 8 Armoured Brigade in Normandy recently and I was interested in 147 Regt RHA after visiting Gold Beach in September. Different books assign the regiment to either 8 Armd Bde, 50 Inf Bde or the Army Group and I was wondering if anyone had a definitive answer. I have read that their Arm of Service marking on the vehicles may have been either 1147 or 1177, but I can't find any photos showing them or their formation sign. I found that the Dragon kit of the Sexton has markings for the Essex Yeomanry, but they have been described as the markings for a different regiment. Can someone please point me in the right direction?

Cheers

Phil

[JackG]

British Tanks in Normandy by Ludovic Fortin - in his book, 147 Regt RHA is considered part of 8th Armoured Bde. Like most independent armoured formations, they rarely fought as a total entity, but would usually be assigned to other units (as needed) in a support roll. So it's possible that some point or other, it was attached to different formations outside of 8th Armoured.

I think the graphic below gives you the correct AOS number for the artillery regiment. Note too, the white bar below each sign does indicate belonging to Army level.

regards,

Jack

[Phil Evans]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the reply. I had seen that book after reading in Warpaint Vol 3 that 1177 was the number for "8th Armd Bde Fd Regt RA". It has 1147 as "Fd Regt RA". This was about the start of my confusion. I looked at different Armoured Brigade structures and 8 Armd appears to be the only one to have a specific artillery regiment assigned to it. I found a reference on a forum where on person stated it was 1147 and someone else was equally sure that it was 1177.

Phil

[JackG]

hmmm... I'm not sure now either.

This site has it as 1177 as well, including a diagonal white line.

http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nweuro/page3.html

This entry At MapleLeafUp also mentions 1177 and also includes a photo - though small, it does look to be correct? What's more, there is fairly good list of census numbers and vehicle names.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6168

I guess odds are favoured that the British and Canadian links are correct, and the French author got it wrong?

regards,

Jack

[Phil Evans]

This is why I'm not sure either, Jack. I don't see why they would have the 50 Div sign as they were attached to the Div, not part of it. I can't see why anyone would spend time painting a formation sign on their vehicle each time they were moved from one formation to another. I noticed that 86 Regt RA is the Hertfordshire Yeomanry, which might catch confuse some people. At some point I'd like to do a model of one of the Sextons, but it might be a while until I'm 100% positive about the markings.

Cheers

Phil

[JackG]

Found this colour photo of the other artillery regiment 'attached' to 50th Northumberland, and is identified as belonging to 86th (Bedfordshire Yeomanry) RA;

http://northumbriangunner.blogspot.ca/2012_04_01_archive.html

(not allowed to link photo, so here is the full site: http://northumbriangunner.blogspot.ca/2012_04_01_archive.html )

Looking back at the b/w photo at the MLU forum I had linked earlier, it too has the same marking of the two T's superimposed over one another.

regards,

Jack

[Phil Evans]

I can't believe how stupid I've been Jack. I've got photos of that Sexton as I was in Normandy in September, although some online references have 86 Fd Regt as Herfordshire. I guess that rules out 1147. 147 Regt may be in similar markings as that Sexton does have the 50 Inf Div insignia and it is also an Army Level regiment from the AoS.

EDIT: I suppose we should be wary of relying on a restored vehicle rather than original photos.

Phil

Edited November 29, 2014 by Phil Evans

[JackG]

Phil, for sure, pieces that have been restored need to be approached with caution - not just markings, but paint as well.

As I was saying, the photo found at MLU forum is captioned as being a Sexton belonging to 147, and the Northumbrian symbol is quite distinct. Seems the copy has been over exposed, or the contrast and lightness dialed up, as the marking looks to be almost white.

regards,

Jack

[Phil Evans]

Thanks Jack, that'll be good enough for me. I can't make out a white stripe on it, horizontal or diagonal. I don't think we're going to get any clearer indication than this and we seem to be the only 2 people interested in the subject.

Many thanks for your help and information, I really appreciate it.

Phil

[JackG]

Phil, no problem, just wish there was more photos out there.

Back to the b/w photo, it looks like the AOS number has no colour background, with only the number itself being applied - but it could just be an illusion due to the quality... I have read, on a Canadian link, that by 1944 water slide decals were issued for formation signs and unit signs (containing background colours only).

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/markings_on_military_vehicles.htm

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I've found a couple of orbats from June 6th, with 147th RA being listed with both 8th Armd and 50th Infantry Div., how that works has got me.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/brig_GB_08a.htm

http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/div_GB_50i.htm

An account of JUNE 7TH - 12TH here written by a brigadier:

http://www.warlinks.com/armour/8th_armoured/8th_armoured_breakout.php

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Have you tried the W2talk forums?

There is a thread there, but I can't find the photos they are talking about:

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/29983-info-on-147th-ra-regt-photos-requested/

Seems at some point the AoS number 1177 was changed to 76 ?

regards,

Jack

[Phil Evans]

_{Hi Jack,}

_{76 was the number for a Fd Regt in an Armd Div. The photo may not show the AoS too well if there wasn't too much contrast between the various paints.}

_{On the Warlinks.com site there is also an account of 8 Armd Bde's war. They supported 50 Div until the 9th when they supported the 30th Div and on the 14th they supported 49 Div. This process of supporting different formations went on until the end of the war. I just don't see the point in painting any formation sign on their vehicle apart from the 8 Bde fox.}

_Cheers

_Phil