JWM Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Hi, I started to build Percival Vega Six P3 - scratch conversion from Frog Proctor (rather Novo - this is a huge difference in quality of details...) . Some photos from the work I just post on WIP forum last week. I intended to make her in markings of impressed in 1940 to RAF ex Shell Ltd. machine, which was based in Cairo. I found photo of a such model done by someone. It looked reasonable - Middle Stone/Dk. Earth with Azur Bottom, roundels C on sides, claimed to belong to 267 Squadron RAF. I thought - OK, it is 1942 or 1943 painting. However since the model has u/c painted as undersurfaces (Azur Blue) i had doubts and wanted to jugde this on basis of a photo. I started to dig out for a photo of her in the net and I was surprised that instead I found information, that this machine had serious accident in Lydda airfield in June 1941 and was then written off (!). If it is true, she could never wear C roundels, since she was written off about year before such roundels (and Azur Blue) entered. Moreover - I found also that there is in IWM photo of this machine during some u/c repair, but this photo is not available in net. Can somone help me with clarify this contradiction? Was she demaged beyond the repair in Lydda in 1941 or was she then repaired and served in 267 squdron? Or has anybody photo, in which details of the camo in 1940-41 period is aeen. Was it MS/DE/Sky Blue or rather DG/DE/Sky Blue? Best regards Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 It is possible that it wore a locally-inspired colour variously identified, sometimes called Iraq Blue: a light blue of which Azure Blue was the official equivalent and not as light as the very pale Sky Blue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 22, 2014 Author Share Posted November 22, 2014 Thank you! I did not know this. But do you think that Middle Stone was possible in 1940? In Middle East or Africa in 1940 most of aiplanes were still DG/DE I think. For example Wellesleys in 1940 in definitly not-green environment like Khartum were DG/DE, but they were painted earlier. Percival for sure was painted in 1940, I think in Egipt or Palestine, where it was impossed to RAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 According to the Air Britain serials book AX698 served with 267 and 173 squadrons but no dates are given. Jefford - RAF Squadrons - lists a Gull 6 as being with 173 from July 42 when the squadron formed to October 43 but doesn't give a serial. Also lists a Vega Gull with 267 from Aug 40 to Jun 42. JWR Taylor - Maritime etc. squadrons - lists AX698 with 267 and 173 with no dates So I assume it survived the accident and was repaired. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 22, 2014 Author Share Posted November 22, 2014 Thank you very much "rossm"! It looks like this indeed, it was repaired. Regards JWM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I have now found my copy of 'Percival & Hunting Aircraft' by John Silvester, a book in the style of the Putnam series from which Percival is missing. AX698 started life as Gull (not Vega Gull) production number D52 and was registered as G-ADKX by the Egyptian subsidiary of Shell Oil Co on 17th June 1935. The Gull seems to have had several changes during production but I think D52 was one of the final version (the D3 series named Gull VI). The changes to get to the Vega Gull were, according to the book: Span increased from 36ft to 39ft6in, length increased by 6in, cabin width by 9in, tailplane and elevator enlarged by 3 sq.ft. and fin & rudder in proportion. Length and wing area increased again for the Proctor IV (I think this is the kit version) so you'll have some work to do to get back to a Gull. Good luck! Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Span increased from 36ft to 39ft6in, length increased by 6in, cabin width by 9in, tailplane and elevator enlarged by 3 sq.ft. and fin & rudder in proportion. Thank you vey much Ross for this note. So, I have a problem... I am doing this conversion based on Spanish plans for P3 version aircraft prod. number 49 (only 3 before 52?)- she had winspan 11.02 m and lenght 7.52 m, accordingly to this book (Aviones Guerra Civil ...). 11.02 m is 36 feet So it looks, that the best solution for me is to paint it as Spanish one, since I used Spanish plans for a/c 49... By the way - 39ft6in (12.04 m) is the wingspan of Proctor. The last Percival Gulls (I agree - not Vega Gull) have also landing lights and higher tail (exactly like Proctor?- I guess it from photos) as one can noticed from photos of single Australian and New Zealander machines which are in net. And the Belgian one also, at least following the plans. Therefore I am looking for a photo.... - to be sure that a/c 49 and AX698 (52 as you found - thank you again ) are the same looking. I think that wingspan is correltated with landing lights - the lack of lights suggests 36 ft, with light it is 39 ft. And the higher tail is also easy to distinguish on photo. Low has rudder with stright leading edge, higher has sloped line at the top. Are there any photos of machines with serials close to 62 in your book? Cheers Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Sorry, can't spend too much time just now, maybe more tomorrow. The book is not the easiest to make sense of - written by a man who knew his subject and puts down lots of detail but not well organised. There were 47 Gulls built, the first 29 were D1 and D2 (Gull IV) types. Percival series started at 20 so that would be D20 to D48 except the text gives D45, the 25th to be built, as the first with a redesigned fuselage and undercarriage. Various points in the text suggest the Gipsy six engine was the D3 standard except individual histories quote earlier aircraft with this engine and later ones with the Cirrus or Gipsy Major! The first landing light I can see in a photo is in the Series II Vega Gulls and all photos of Gulls from prototype to thew 45th (D64?) show a straight leading edge to the rudder. Must go, sorry, Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Hi, Thank you very much Ross for you input. By mistake I put result of my internet querry in a WIP topic on my conversion, not here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234971044-percival-vega-gull-p3-scratch-conversion-from-frog-proctor-172/ I am very interesting on your opinion on facts I found in net and discuss there. I think, that we are are approching to agreement, that Gull Six is a smaller variant and the larger one, size of Proctor I is Vega. Do you agree with this? Best regards and greetings Jerzy-Wojtek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Air Britain has recently published a book on Percival aircraft. I decided I didn't need it because I have the Sylvester book, but apparently that may be a mistake? https://www.air-britain.co.uk/actbooks/acatalog/-ON-THE-WINGS-OF-A-GULL--Percival-and-Hunting-Aircraft-187.html Now ordered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Air Britain has recently published a book on Percival aircraft. I decided I didn't need it because I have the Sylvester book, but apparently that may be a mistake? https://www.air-britain.co.uk/actbooks/acatalog/-ON-THE-WINGS-OF-A-GULL--Percival-and-Hunting-Aircraft-187.html Now ordered. Humph, wish you hadn't said that as I now feel the need to spend out on it There is also one published last year called "Percival Aircraft: Edgar Percival, the Man and His Legacy: From Racing Gulls to Jet Trainer" but it got a stinking review on Amazon so I'm giving it a miss. Anyway, back to the detail - I agree Vega Gull and Proctor I were similar and the Gull Six is a smaller aircraft. Even though there were changes during the production run I think the dimensions of the Gull stayed much the same through all variants. Looking at your WIP thread I cannot join your plans with any information from the book. The fuselage could well be a Gull but I think the wings are Vega Gull / Proctor as the centre section (where the extra span was added to the Gull to make the Vega Gull) is wider than the drawings and photos in the book suggest for a Gull. Just reducing the centre section and maybe reshaping the wingtips would get you very close to a Gull I think. If you PM me your email address I will send you a scan of the plan from the book - it is an early Gull but I think the wing should be the same for all Gulls. Ross 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I have both the Sylvester and Air Britain books and the claim for the AB book is that the plans are the most accurate. I have in a box 1/72 masters , most of which are unfinished for all the Gull family which were made by the late Mike Eacock, who was a contemporary and acquaintance of Sylvester. There are only two spans quoted for the entire range of Gulls 36' 2" and 39' 6". John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 Hi, Thank you John, Ross and Graham for comments. In my plan the wingspan is 153 mm what gives 11.016 m (obviously I should round it to three digits so it is 11.02 what is exactly 36 ft). ...So this is a short wing. Regards Jerzy-Wojtek P.S. Ross, I sent you a message with e-mail address, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) The book has arrived, and it is most impressive. However, within the section dedicated to the Gull there's no suggestion of the physical changes mentioned above: Ross post 6. Those changes appear to be much more representative of the changes from Gull to Vega Gull. All Gulls (not Vega Gulls) appear to have the same wing and position of the tailplane, with the straight leading edge to the rudder. The angled forward tip to the rudder (aerodynamic balance) appears to come with the Vega Gull. The plans do not show landing lights on the Gull, nor on the Vega Gull. These were however added to Henshaw's Vega Gull G-AEEA, and possibly can be seen on G-AEKE - it isn't certain to my eye. Given Percival's attitude to separate names for significant design changes (the Proctor Mk.IV was initially the Preceptor), I think it much likelier that all Gulls were the same dimensions and the changes were introduced with the Vega Gull. AX698 is indeed a Gull, or Gull Six if you prefer it. Incidentally, the Proctor I isn't as close to the Vega Gull as often claimed - it has a longer fuselage and a larger wing area. The change in the wing isn't explained - or at least I haven't found that yet. The Gull Six was not an official designation, but used by marketing. Terms such as D1, D2 and D3 were not contemporary. They may still be useful, but (as Rossm pointed out) not self-exclusive. What happened at C/n D.45 was that production shifted to Gravesend, where the first aircraft had a modified cabin and undercarriage. I suspect it is relevant that the drawings at the rear of the book have a variant labelled as Gull Six with the deeper cabin windows and windscreen as seen on the Vega Gull. These, and the spatted undercarriage, can also be seen on D.44 G-ACPA which seems to have been treated as a prototype for the switchover, and announced as the 1934 model of the Gull. The majority of Gravesend aircraft were fitted with the Gypsy Six, but (as Ross says) not all. Incidentally, the construction number should include the type letter. Gull c/ns begin at D.20 but Vega Gull c/ns begin at K.20. Proctors however continue the K sequence. I must dig out my copy of Sylvester to make further comparisons. I'm sure there is more to be gleaned from the new book, put hopefully little of direct relevance to the Gull Six/Gull D3/Vega Gull differences that may be relevant to this model. Edited November 27, 2014 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Thank you Graham very much for this explanation and Ross for sending me files by e-mail. I think that this clarified a lot. I will try to resume how I see it now: There were three width of fuselage (the most narrow for original Gull - two person sitting one behind aonother) then wider for what is called Gull VI - Two person side by side and third behind them and then a bit more wider Vega Gull with more comfortable cabin for 4 person. The difference is clearly seen - there is an additional metal panel between windows on the top of canopy in Vega Gull, not present in Gull VI as well as there is additional window in the windscreen of Vega Gull, again not present in Gull VI. The same width of fuselage as Vega Gull had Proctor (since some late Vega had alredy spherical winscreen as Proctor). There were two wings: 11 m and 12 m (36ft and 39.. ft) wingspan, rougly speaking. Again Gull and Gull VI have 11 m, Vega and Proctor have 12 m. An d the AX698 seems to be Gull VI Best regards Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I have found a reference to the Gravesend-built aircraft (D3, or Gull Six if you like) having a 2in greater wingspan and a larger cabin area - presumably the same 2 inches wider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 There seems to be plenty of material on the Gull family in the Flight archive e.g.http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934%20-%200411.html http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936 - 1010.html http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1935/1935 - 0614.html - the introduction of the Gull VI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 29, 2014 Author Share Posted November 29, 2014 Thank you Graham and Ross for those lates hints Regards Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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