A Spitfire Loony considering armour - Sherman Firefly and Panzer!

[wellsprop]

Hi all,

Some of you may be familiar with me, it seems that I have made a bit of a reputation of being a devout and prolific Spitfire modeller here on BM! It has taken a little convincing (two years worth) by one of my mates who models 35th armour plus seeing Brad Pitt's Fury to coax me into wanting to build a tank.

Being quintessentially British (I like my Marmite, English Breakfast tea and long walks in the countryside) I am, of course, an admirer of proper British aircraft like the Spitfire and Tiger Moth. I guess this is at least part of the reason I like Hobart's Funnies; if you ask me, they are the perfect example of British eccentricity in practical action! The Sherman Firefly (based on the US Sherman I know) seems like a fantastic choice for me as it offers the British eccentricity of sticking a massive cannon on something not designed for it (Tsetse Mosquito for example!).

Here's where I need the help of you guys; I want a 1/72 (or 76) scale Firefly. I know such a small scale tank is often regarded as a sin in the armour world, but it means it goes with the rest of my collection

I think the type of Firefly I want is the Mk Vc and I'm willing to spend around £12 tops (ish). So far this has caught my eye, it looks very detailed and it seems it comes almost totally made! But, I'd love to know what others are available!

Now to the Tiger; you should by now know I am bonkers about Spitfires, I want to recreate something similar to this

The caption citing the vehicle as a Panzer

I don't want to spend so much on this model, so I was thinking the 1/72 Revell kit of the Tiger II (I assume this is a Panzer Royale?)...

Cheers

Ben

Edited November 17, 2014 by wellsprop

[Graham Boak]

Matchbox made a Firefly in 1/76, reboxed by Revell. Probably easily available in shops or online. Dragon made one in 1/72, but they made a lot of Shermans and they tended to disappear rapidly after introduction - especially the Firefly in the UK. This is a nicer kit. Buying replacements will not keep the price down but may end up cheaper overall.

There were a number of Sherman Fireflies, the Mk.Vc is the most familiar but the Hybrid Ic is also available from Milicast. Milicast's Battlefield series are simple but their Premier range is much more fiddly, especially if you aren't used to working in resin and superglues. MMS also do both versions, but in white metal, and you might find this easier to work with. It also give a tank model a satisfactory heft.
http://www.mms-models.co.uk/classic/products_classicPage.php?52

King Tiger, Royal Tiger, Tiger B... all the same. Both Airfix and Fujimi do them - possibly with different turrets? No doubt you can get any number of others, it being German after all.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Graham Boak

[JasonC]

The German tank in the photo above is a Panther, not a Tiger II.

Regards,

J.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

As Graham says, Dragon do the best 1/72 Firefly, but it's probably slightly harder to get hold of than their "Easy-Eight" and it will cost you. Unimodel do a Sherman Vc, but the running gear of their kits is not terribly good. I would be happy to furnish you with spares if you wished to attempt to upgrade the UM kit, but you will need to source your own replacement tracks and possibly sprockets. These might cost more than the kit! You will find plenty of information on these kits at the 1/72 Shermans site I linked you to in the other thread.

Another quintessentially British option might be a Cromwell.....Revell do a superb 1/72 kit and I really can't think of a better introduction to the higher end of the Braille armour scene than this kit: http://www.onthewaymodels.com/reviews/RevellAG/revellCromwellprev.htm

Jason is right.....That German AFV appears to be a Panther Ausf G. If you are going to model one of these rather than a Kingtiger, I would avoid the Hasegawa kit like the plague, it's ancient and it really shows. Revell's is beautiful and a joy to build, but there is some question about it's accuracy.....I was (right up until I typed this post) under the impression that the now hard to get Dragon kits were superior in all regards to Revell, but some new (to me) information suggests there's not so much in it....Both kits have their issues:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/thread/1224308781/Panther%2Bhull%2Bcomparison%2B(cont.)

This modeller has found a wonderfully elegant fix for the Revell kit:

http://www.onthewaymodels.com/reviews/RevellAG/DCarli_Revell_Early%20Panther%20G_build%20review.htm

The only other minor issue with the Revell kit is that the L&L tracks, despite being lovely to work with, are of inaccurate pitch and thus the sprockets have too few teeth (also on no accounts follow the Revell instructions for the L&L blindly, they were wrong in the first release and may still be wrong in the repop).....Replacement tracks for this won't be any cheaper than they would for a Sherman:

http://shop.okbgrigorov.com/

If you decide to model a Kingtiger anyway, PM me.

[Darby]

Be careful. I went 1/35 AFV after years of wings and things and didn't go back for about five years. It can be addictive

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Stick to the small stuff.....That way you can have more!

It's also really easy to store Braille kits.....15-25 AFVs to an A4 Box file, with a few strips of sponge to seperate them.

[wellsprop]

Matchbox made a Firefly in 1/76, reboxed by Revell. Probably easily available in shops or online. Dragon made one in 1/72, but they made a lot of Shermans and they tended to disappear rapidly after introduction - especially the Firefly in the UK. This is a nicer kit - the Matchbox wheels are too small. Buying replacements will not keep the price down but may end up cheaper overall.

There were a number of Sherman Fireflies, the Mk.Vc is the most familiar but the Hybrid Ic is also available from Milicast. Milicast's Battlefield series are simple but their Premier range is much more fiddly, especially if you aren't used to working in resin and superglues. MMS also do both versions, but in white metal, and you might find this easier to work with. It also give a tank model a satisfactory heft.

http://www.mms-models.co.uk/classic/products_classicPage.php?52

King Tiger, Royal Tiger, Tiger B... all the same. Both Airfix and Fujimi do them - possibly with different turrets? No doubt you can get any number of others, it being German after all.

Ohhh that MMS white metal Firefly does sound tasty!

As Graham says, Dragon do the best 1/72 Firefly, but it's probably slightly harder to get hold of than their "Easy-Eight" and it will cost you. Unimodel do a Sherman Vc, but the running gear of their kits is not terribly good. I would be happy to furnish you with spares if you wished to attempt to upgrade the UM kit, but you will need to source your own replacement tracks and possibly sprockets. These might cost more than the kit! You will find plenty of information on these kits at the 1/72 Shermans site I linked you to in the other thread.

Another quintessentially British option might be a Cromwell.....Revell do a superb 1/72 kit and I really can't think of a better introduction to the higher end of the Braille armour scene than this kit: http://www.onthewaymodels.com/reviews/RevellAG/revellCromwellprev.htm

Jason is right.....That German AFV appears to be a Panther Ausf G. If you are going to model one of these rather than a Kingtiger, I would avoid the Hasegawa kit like the plague, it's ancient and it really shows. Revell's is beautiful and a joy to build, but there is some question about it's accuracy.....I was (right up until I typed this post) under the impression that the now hard to get Dragon kits were superior in all regards to Revell, but some new (to me) information suggests there's not so much in it....Both kits have their issues:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/thread/1224308781/Panther%2Bhull%2Bcomparison%2B(cont.)

This modeller has found a wonderfully elegant fix for the Revell kit:

http://www.onthewaymodels.com/reviews/RevellAG/DCarli_Revell_Early%20Panther%20G_build%20review.htm

The only other minor issue with the Revell kit is that the L&L tracks, despite being lovely to work with, are of inaccurate pitch and thus the sprockets have too few teeth (also on no accounts follow the Revell instructions for the L&L blindly, they were wrong in the first release and may still be wrong in the repop).....Replacement tracks for this won't be any cheaper than they would for a Sherman:

http://shop.okbgrigorov.com/

If you decide to model a Kingtiger anyway, PM me.

I think I'll be going for either the MMS or Milicast Firefly

As a TOTAL armour novice, would a King Tiger or an Ausf G be more common in North Germany (where RAF 2TAF were fighting in '45)? And out of the two Revell kits of the previously mentioned tanks, which is more accurately representative of the real version in North Germany? i.e. did Tiger II's serve in combat without Zimmerit but with a Henschel turret etc? Same applies for the Ausf G.

Ben

Edited November 17, 2014 by wellsprop

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Of those two kits, I'd go Millicast every time.....But do at least have a hunt around for a Dragon kit before you commit, it's in a different league to these, honest!

The Panther G was much more common, the Kingtiger was a pretty rare beast.

The Germans stopped applying zimmerit in September 44 or thereabouts IIRC, so you are safe without it. That late in the war you have a lot of choices for your Panther; steel wheels, even IR gear (in theory at least). Going for a corrected Revell kit would probably be a very good bet.....It's a nice build, cleverly engineered and it includes a late mantlet with chin and a couple of styles of exhaust. The correction is straightforward and it will make a big difference to the look of the finished model (I wish I'd known about it sooner TBH).

This is actually a bit mad.....The information about the Dragon hull means that the only 1/72 kit not yet confirmed to be inaccurate is the 1/72 Quick-Build Panther Ausf D from Zvezda!

As I said before, if you want to have a go at correcting the Unimodel 1/72 Firefly kit, I can provide you with the vast bulk of what you would need to do it right now, it would be a challenging build but well within your abilities, certainly no more difficult than that ACE kit. I can help out with references too, but what I can't do at the moment are tracks.

Now here's the thing....Heller have just popped an excellent 1/72 M4A2 kit.....Which comes with two sets of very nice tracks. If I can ever get hold of some of these kits I would be happy to set you up with the full spares array needed to turn the UM kit into a first class model and one that would be unique to your collection.

Of course with the success of 'Fury' Dragon might just repop their Sherman kits, but they'll charge the earth for them if they do!

PS - Some armour modellers consider scales larger than 1/72 to be a bit toy-like and clumsy:

http://smallscaleafv.com/inspiration/alex-clark/

http://miniafv.blogspot.co.uk/p/braille-scale-modelling.html

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/

[wellsprop]

Cheers Sgt!

I think I have my eye on the Milicast Firefly and Revell Ausf G. I still have my Spitfire and car to build before considering purchasing lol! Im definetly going to be raiding my spare decals for the firefly, in my mind it needs some eyes either side of the barrel (Im sure I have a spare sharks mouth and eyes from a Hawker Tiffie!).

Ben

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Why not do the Ausf G first to get your eye in and see how you feel afterward.....The Milicast kit is 1/76 so it will seem rather petite next to the monstrous Panther in 1/72.

Trust me fella the UM fix is well within your range, all the parts you need can be had for absolutely nowt and ultimately it will be a better model.....Millicast castings are superb but they are always limited by the exigencies of getting the model out of the mould.

Give it some thought, this tracky-business is every bit as involved as aircraft modelling you know.

[wellsprop]

Why not do the Ausf G first to get your eye in and see how you feel afterward.....The Milicast kit is 1/76 so it will seem rather petite next to the monstrous Panther in 1/72.

Trust me fella the UM fix is well within your range, all the parts you need can be had for absolutely nowt and ultimately it will be a better model.....Millicast castings are superb but they are always limited by the exigencies of getting the model out of the mould.

Give it some thought, this tracky-business is every bit as involved as aircraft modelling you know.

I just found some sprue shots of the UM Firefly, it's a decent price as well. I'm not massively keen on seeking replacements etc as I don't know a lot about what would need to be upgraded. At the moment I'm looking to build out box, would UM or Milicast (I know it's resin) give me the better option?

Ben

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Out of the box, Millicast, but you will need decals and if you do get a Revell Panther it will be dwarfed by it.....You will notice it, believe me!

As for UM, fear not.....I don't just do parts!

The biggest problem with all of the Unimodel VVSS Shermans is the running gear, primarily the tracks. The track pads are too narrow and the end-connectors too long, simple solution, replace them.....The biggest problem with this is ensuring the tracks are of the correct pitch to fit around the sprocket, but again there's a simple solution, swap that too, with the same kit you sourced your tracks from.

I believe I may have some Extratech L&L track and sprockets that I can spare (from a Jumbo that requires 'duckbills'), adapting and fitting this should solve the biggest problems with the UM kit. The rest is cosmetic, I can supply sufficient detail parts and etch that under a coat of paint your model should be virtually indistinguishable from a Dragon kit.

So, to sum up, I've got a fairly thorough idea of what you need already and I can provide you with plenty of parts and references to show how they should fit together on the real thing, all you have to do is figure out how to make them do that on your model.....I'm almost tempted to pick one up myself just for the S&Gs, but I've got Dragon kits to do first.

[Bangor Lad]

Hi Ben

As you know I've done a couple of the PSC Firefly Vc and although they're not in the Dragon category they do finish quickly and are a good basis for basis for improvements.

Dave

[wellsprop]

Hi Ben

As you know I've done a couple of the PSC Firefly Vc and although they're not in the Dragon category they do finish quickly and are a good basis for basis for improvements.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I'm a bit confused by what you mean when you say the PSC Firefly? Probably being stupid

Once I've made my Spitfire, I'll start work on Revell's 1/72 Ausf. G, I don't know if I'll do the corrective surgery seeing as it'll be my first tank kit... But we'll see when we get there!

Ben

Edited November 19, 2014 by wellsprop

[Bangor Lad]

Hey Dave,

I'm a bit confused by what you mean when you say the PSC Firefly? Probably being stupid

Once I've made my Spitfire, I'll start work on Revell's 1/72 Ausf. G, I don't know if I'll do the corrective surgery seeing as it'll be my first tank kit... But we'll see when we get there!

Ben

Hi Ben

Sorry, PSC means Plastic Soldier Company. They make a range of quick assembly kits and although targeted at the wargame market they can, with a bit of work turn out quite nicely. If you have a look at some of my posts there are a few pictures. Oh, you also get three in box for around £14. Pretty good value to me!

Cheers

[AndyC]

Be careful. I went 1/35 AFV after years of wings and things and didn't go back for about five years. It can be addictive

I think, sadly, I'm heading that way too!

[wellsprop]

Hi Ben

Sorry, PSC means Plastic Soldier Company. They make a range of quick assembly kits and although targeted at the wargame market they can, with a bit of work turn out quite nicely. If you have a look at some of my posts there are a few pictures. Oh, you also get three in box for around £14. Pretty good value to me!

Cheers

The PSC kit definitely looks rather nice

Ben

[Sgt.Squarehead]

They don't look like that out of the box Ben believe me.....There's almost as much work done there as fixing the UM kit, though of a slightly different nature.

The weak spot of this kit is the drive sprocket, Bangor Lad and I were just discussing potential fixes using sprockets from other kits.....If you go this route I'd be happy to send you the same parts.

It should look like this:

The teeth of the sprocket mesh with the pins on the outer edges of the track and thus all the sprocket teeth should always be visible.....For some reason PSC shaved 2/3 of them off, presumably because their CAD man knows SFA about Shermans and assumed they meshed into slots in the track like a Panxer IV.

The pitch of the remaining teeth is miles off too, it's readily visible to the naked eye.....What were they thinking?

[wellsprop]

They don't look like that out of the box Ben believe me.....There's almost as much work done there as fixing the UM kit, though of a slightly different nature.

The weak spot of this kit is the drive sprocket, Bangor Lad and I were just discussing potential fixes using sprockets from other kits.....If you go this route I'd be happy to send you the same parts.

It should look like this:

The teeth of the sprocket mesh with the pins on the outer edges of the track and thus all the sprocket teeth should always be visible.....For some reason PSC shaved 2/3 of them off, presumably because their CAD man knows SFA about Shermans and assumed they meshed into slots in the track like a Panxer IV.

The pitch of the remaining teeth is miles off too, it's readily visible to the naked eye.....What were they thinking?

I'm slowly learning all this new jargon!

I'm still very tempted to get the milicast Sherman as it looks very nice straight up The Sherman and the Panther will be in separate vignettes so the size difference isn't much of a concern for me. Before getting the Sherman it is likely I will get the Panther first, I have an RAF jeep that I think I will use in conjunction with an RAF figure (or two) inspecting the damaged tank.

Could you suggest some nice 72/76 figures that could be converted to RAF/ British Army servicemen? I've been looking for a long time for a British military figure that has (could be converted) to be posing with a camera to take a photo...

Ben

[Graham Boak]

You could always get a Milicast Panther to go with your Sherman, then there's be no contrasting scale problem at all. Or indeed Milicast figures, although I've no idea which can be converted to pose with a camera.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

If they are to be on seperate dioramas the scale difference is not a problem so MIllicast would be a very good bet.....Sorry about the confusion there, I assumed you would be posing them together.

Figures are not my strong suit, you can find a comprehensive listing of what's available in plastic here: http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Index.aspx The Revell RAF set might provide a basis, simple figure conversions are fun to do and the results can be quite satisfying.

Dan Taylor Modelworks do some superb resin figures that might suit your needs: http://www.dantaylormodelworks.com/ IIRC CMK have some similar items in their range too.

It would also be worth checking out white metal wargaming ranges such as AB.....Can't help with links at the moment, but I can 'phone a friend' in the event you can't locate anything suitable.

Graham's suggestion of Millicast accross the board is a thought, although you won't learn quite as much about AFV modelling if you follow that route.

[wellsprop]

If they are to be on seperate dioramas the scale difference is not a problem so MIllicast would be a very good bet.....Sorry about the confusion there, I assumed you would be posing them together.

Figures are not my strong suit, you can find a comprehensive listing of what's available in plastic here: http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Index.aspx The Revell RAF set might provide a basis, simple figure conversions are fun to do and the results can be quite satisfying.

Dan Taylor Modelworks do some superb resin figures that might suit your needs: http://www.dantaylormodelworks.com/ IIRC CMK have some similar items in their range too.

It would also be worth checking out white metal wargaming ranges such as AB.....Can't help with links at the moment, but I can 'phone a friend' in the event you can't locate anything suitable.

Graham's suggestion of Millicast accross the board is a thought, although you won't learn quite as much about AFV modelling if you follow that route.

Lol I forgot to say they were different dioramas!

See.s I cant find any shark eyes decals to put on a model! :/ I migt have to turn to the BM community to scrounge some from

Ben

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That's more of a US thing, from the Korean War.....You wanted to model an "Easy Eight" didn't you:

Why not save the eyes and teeth for the real deal? You will find one version of them in the box of the Trumpeter 1/72 M4A3E8 'Korean War' (#7229).

http://www.172shermans.com/kitreviews/Trumpeter/M4A3E8prev.htm

[Centaur95]

Ben,

The Sherman Firefly image you posted is a Sherman Ic Hybrid.

To give a bit of background: The original Firefly conversions were done using Sherman V (ie M4A4s - the Shermans with the slightly longer hull) - hence Vc. These were converted from around April 1944 and there just about enough to equip most British/Candian Regts by the time of D-Day. Conversions continued through 1944 and increasing numbers of the Sherman I were used (plain M4 variant) to supplement the demand for additional Fireflies (aka Sherman Ic). The Sherman I came in two hull types - the original type had a fully welded hull (all sharp edges and flat plates) but late production vehicles replaced the nose area with a large casting giving the hull a curved appearace from the front but this was blended into the rear three quarters of the hull that was still made of flat plates. (The M4A1 - Sherman II) had a fully cast hull so it had rounded edges to all the side/top panel transitions.

The photo shows a late war Ic - probably photographed early 1945. The track has extended end connectors ('duckbills') added to the outer edge of the tracks (to reduce ground pressure and therefore increase mobility in soft ground) and at least two of the crew appear to be wearing pixie suits (one-piece padded afv crew suits). I can't tell what unit it belongs to but the Arm of Service code looks like '52' so it would belong to the second senior regt in an armoured brigade.

If you're planning to create a generic Sherman Firefly then it doesn't really matter which version you build, but if you were doing a vehicle in Normandy for example, then a Vc would be the only option as the Ic hadn't some on stream at that point (the Vc operated right to the end of the war, so it would be appropriate for most periods of the NW Europe campaign). Just like RAF aircraft, the types issued were carefully recorded so if you wanted to portray a Firefly from a specific unit you'll need to consider what vehicles they might have been operating at the time. Similarly, the markings used varied from unit to unit (the 'official' marking instructions were not always followed).

Can't comment on German eqpt as it's not my thing, but always had a liking for the Panther

Cheers,

Centaur

[wellsprop]

That's more of a US thing, from the Korean War.....You wanted to model an "Easy Eight" didn't you:

Why not save the eyes and teeth for the real deal? You will find one version of them in the box of the Trumpeter 1/72 M4A3E8 'Korean War' (#7229).

http://www.172shermans.com/kitreviews/Trumpeter/M4A3E8prev.htm

Nope! In fact, I was thinking of something along the lines of 4 RTR's "Chinese Eye", a British tradition from WWI I wonder if any guys from another Tank Regiment ever saw that on a 4th RTR vehicle (or saw it on a Tiffie for that matter) and decided to make it their own...

Ben,

The Sherman Firefly image you posted is a Sherman Ic Hybrid.

To give a bit of background: The original Firefly conversions were done using Sherman V (ie M4A4s - the Shermans with the slightly longer hull) - hence Vc. These were converted from around April 1944 and there just about enough to equip most British/Candian Regts by the time of D-Day. Conversions continued through 1944 and increasing numbers of the Sherman I were used (plain M4 variant) to supplement the demand for additional Fireflies (aka Sherman Ic). The Sherman I came in two hull types - the original type had a fully welded hull (all sharp edges and flat plates) but late production vehicles replaced the nose area with a large casting giving the hull a curved appearace from the front but this was blended into the rear three quarters of the hull that was still made of flat plates. (The M4A1 - Sherman II) had a fully cast hull so it had rounded edges to all the side/top panel transitions.

The photo shows a late war Ic - probably photographed early 1945. The track has extended end connectors ('duckbills') added to the outer edge of the tracks (to reduce ground pressure and therefore increase mobility in soft ground) and at least two of the crew appear to be wearing pixie suits (one-piece padded afv crew suits). I can't tell what unit it belongs to but the Arm of Service code looks like '52' so it would belong to the second senior regt in an armoured brigade.

If you're planning to create a generic Sherman Firefly then it doesn't really matter which version you build, but if you were doing a vehicle in Normandy for example, then a Vc would be the only option as the Ic hadn't some on stream at that point (the Vc operated right to the end of the war, so it would be appropriate for most periods of the NW Europe campaign). Just like RAF aircraft, the types issued were carefully recorded so if you wanted to portray a Firefly from a specific unit you'll need to consider what vehicles they might have been operating at the time. Similarly, the markings used varied from unit to unit (the 'official' marking instructions were not always followed).

Can't comment on German eqpt as it's not my thing, but always had a liking for the Panther

Cheers,

Centaur

Thanks for all the info Centaur. I had been aware that there was the hybrid and also the Vc, however I can't tell the difference too well from photos yet!

I think I'd like to do a Vc as I prefer the forward hull shape

Ben

Edited November 22, 2014 by wellsprop