Thinning Pheonix Precision Paints Enamels

[robvulcan]

Hi I apologize if this has been asked before but.

I have recently discovered that Pheonix Precision Paints do a fab range of Military colors and RAF colors. I have been using Acylics for ages now and still will but I have missed using Enamels.

I never used to do anything with Enamels other than use them out the tin, I know you can obviously use Enamel thinners but what other additives are there to thin Enamels for brush painting and help the paint self level. ?

I am guessing Pheonix is no different to other Enamels but I am excited to try them as I remember how accurate their Railway colours are.

I just want to make sure I get the best out of these paints and hopefully learn some new things about Enamels.

http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precision-paints/military-colours.html

[Procopius]

I'm also interested in enamels, especially for brushing; I've heard they don't leave or are less liable to leave brushmarks when painted mit ze hairy stick, and I've been contemplating trying to build a kit while on holiday in the joyless wastes of Michigan; hope you don't mind if I tag along on this thread to glean some insights.

[Graham Boak]

The website includes a general purpose thinner - look under the acrylic section but PQ8 is described as general purpose for Precision enamels. I've just used White Spirit (Turps Substitute) but I'm no great shakes as a painter.

[robvulcan]

Yep I noticed their own thinner which is also quite pricey,

Its just as I have become so fond of Windsor and Newton Flow improver for Acrylics which enables me to brush them over a primed surface with no stroke marks and lets the paint level out and stay thin.

I wondered if there are other additives for Enamels that allow the self leveling to occur,

I hear mention of Naptha or lighter fluid on another forum.. I am also wondering what to Prime with as I know Acylics don't do well under enamels. Is tamiya or halfords ok.?

Cheers Rob

[Ali62]

Hi Rob

As the guys at precision, they wil give you the best advice, when they used to attend Telford I found them very helpful.

Ali

[robvulcan]

Hi Rob

As the guys at precision, they wil give you the best advice, when they used to attend Telford I found them very helpful.

Ali

Cheers Ali, Yep sent them an email I have never seen anyone use their colours before so thought I would use them in my build and see how they go.

I just opened an Old tin of Humbrol Enamel I have missed that smell so much, Its been years, It actually made me grin,,, Must be addicted to it I guess.

[robvulcan]

So has anyone Tried Lighter Fluid or Naptha for Thinning enamels. If So does it help with brushing and where do I buy naptha from..

Cheers Rob

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Rob,

I think lighter fluid and naptha are more or less the same thing; I used to use a Zippo and if I remember correctly the Zippo fuel ingredient was listed on the can as Naptha. I'm sure it could be used for thinning enamels, I've never tried it but I have cleaned a brush in petrol and it dissolves the paint like any thinner does.

Regarding the Phoenix Precision Paints, when I spray them I use cellulose thinners , and to brush paint I use ordinary white spirit at about 60:40 paint to thinner. It works perfectly well with either of those methods though you might want to vary the proportions according to your own personal tastes...

Cheers,

Stew

[robvulcan]

Hi Rob,

I think lighter fluid and naptha are more or less the same thing; I used to use a Zippo and if I remember correctly the Zippo fuel ingredient was listed on the can as Naptha. I'm sure it could be used for thinning enamels, I've never tried it but I have cleaned a brush in petrol and it dissolves the paint like any thinner does.

Regarding the Phoenix Precision Paints, when I spray them I use cellulose thinners , and to brush paint I use ordinary white spirit at about 60:40 paint to thinner. It works perfectly well with either of those methods though you might want to vary the proportions according to your own personal tastes...

Cheers,

Stew

Cheers Stew. I can remember when I was younger I used to brush them out the tin and the thinners (as far as I knew or cared) was for cleaning your brush, Thinning the paint and recoating never appealed to a kid rushing to get his toy plane. So I used to put it on and can remember the trouble was it would grip the brush and rip up. However I remember my dad thinning and string some and could not believe how good the brush job he did was on my Hurricane.

I then later moved onto airbrushes and never brushed a thing till 6 years ago when the compressor died and then started Brushing Acrylic with great results using Flow improver.

So now I am older I want to give Brushing another go with Enamels, I will have a try of the the white spirit method. does it leave streaks ?. Love to see some examples if possible.

Cheers Rob

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Rob,

Yes, same here, in ye olden days you could just brush paint straight from the tin, I'm sure of it. I brush-painted several of the kits I have posted here, sometimes I am just too lazy to mask bits or try to spray a complex pattern... but I remember I brush-painted the Blenheim for sure, two or three coats of each colour. I believe that the important thing is to spray your varnish coat at the end as that seems to level everything nicely as well.

I'd be interested to see how you get on, the Phoenix paints are such good quality paints that I don't think you can go too far wrong if you take a little care.

Cheers,

Stew

[Cookenbacher]

Don't know if it helps Rob, but I've been successfully thinning Humbrol and Model Master enamels with white spirit with no problems - mainly for airbrushing, but once or twice for bristle brushing as well.

[robvulcan]

Hi Rob,

Yes, same here, in ye olden days you could just brush paint straight from the tin, I'm sure of it. I brush-painted several of the kits I have posted here, sometimes I am just too lazy to mask bits or try to spray a complex pattern... but I remember I brush-painted the Blenheim for sure, two or three coats of each colour. I believe that the important thing is to spray your varnish coat at the end as that seems to level everything nicely as well.

I'd be interested to see how you get on, the Phoenix paints are such good quality paints that I don't think you can go too far wrong if you take a little care.

Cheers,

Stew

Stew, Thanks, I have had a look at some of your models now and they are all gorgeous. I see you like Phoenix Precision Paints and your the first person I have seen use them on Aircraft. I am surprised they are not more commonly seen in use they look fabulous. Was your Hurricane Brushed too.

What sort of Varnish do you use.

I will try thinning with white spirit and Lighter fluid with some Humbrols to see how I get on.

Cheers Rob

Don't know if it helps Rob, but I've been successfully thinning Humbrol and Model Master enamels with white spirit with no problems - mainly for airbrushing, but once or twice for bristle brushing as well.

Cheers Mate any info helps,. I love Acylics these days but I do miss Enamels too. I love the Painting process the most and this is the area I like to diversify with and experiment with.

Cheers Rob

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Rob,

I've made 5 of the new Hurricane now, but if you mean the most recent one from the starter set, that was sprayed. The Yugoslav one before that was brush-painted but I only used the Phoenix paint on the underside of that one - however it does I think show that you don't have to leave brush-marks all over everything - as Cookie noted, Humbrol brush paints perfectly well too... IMHO the secret being not what you thin the paint with, but that you do thin it and accept that it is going to take more than one coat (and this requires the patience that we lacked as boys!).

I have more or less settled on Xtracolor varnish, either Xtraflat or Xtrasatin or more often than not a mix of the two in whatever proportion I feel like that day - I've tried rattle-can varnish and acrylic for convenience but I keep going back to the Xtracolor stuff; we have a long history and I haven't found anything I like better.

Thanks for your kind words about my models, I appreciate it

Cheers,

Stew

[robvulcan]

Hi Rob,

I've made 5 of the new Hurricane now, but if you mean the most recent one from the starter set, that was sprayed. The Yugoslav one before that was brush-painted but I only used the Phoenix paint on the underside of that one - however it does I think show that you don't have to leave brush-marks all over everything - as Cookie noted, Humbrol brush paints perfectly well too... IMHO the secret being not what you thin the paint with, but that you do thin it and accept that it is going to take more than one coat (and this requires the patience that we lacked as boys!).

I have more or less settled on Xtracolor varnish, either Xtraflat or Xtrasatin or more often than not a mix of the two in whatever proportion I feel like that day - I've tried rattle-can varnish and acrylic for convenience but I keep going back to the Xtracolor stuff; we have a long history and I haven't found anything I like better.

Thanks for your kind words about my models, I appreciate it

Cheers,

Stew

Cheers mate, I like to try all sorts of stuff out, If your looking for a great Varnish that gives a good protection and wont yellow, Also brushes really well. Try Windsor and Newton Acrylic Varnishes they are UV protected too.

The only thing I hated about Enamels was the Yellowing Varnish.

Just tried thinning with White Spirit I found under the sink with Some Humbrol 75, Goes very thin indeed. I can see it will take coats but as I enjoy the paint process don't mind waiting now.

I may even get the Airbrush set up again.. Hmm.

Just found this stuff on good recommendation.

http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/odorless-mineral-spirits

Your models are excellent, I particularly like the Blenheim and the Hurricanes. I have not tried these new ones yet, One day.

Edited November 18, 2014 by robvulcan

[Procopius]

Cookie

[Cookenbacher]

And another punch is thrown in the Cookie vs Cooken debate. I really should have chosen a shorter nom de maquette!

Rob, I'm glad I finally managed to give you the tiniest bit of advice on something. I only owe you about seven thousand modelling tips now. I've picked up so much watching your builds!

[robvulcan]

And another punch is thrown in the Cookie vs Cooken debate. I really should have chosen a shorter nom de maquette!

Rob, I'm glad I finally managed to give you the tiniest bit of advice on something. I only owe you about seven thousand modelling tips now. I've picked up so much watching your builds!

Whats this cookie business, I don't mind I just wanna know the joke thats all..

Well I appreciate the advice. I am always still learning myself. This site is great for that. Its fun too. I am glad my builds helped. I do realise that my posts often explain the obvious to some people and they think its better not to mention it. But I always will remember what its like when you don't know and want to learn, I am still learning but I think If I explain what I am doing and why, It is information left there that maybe someone else could find useful. Its also just to socialise and have fun with it.

Its only because I wanted decent models of certain types I started modelling, When I was younger I just wanted to have the model. I still do but now I realise I enjoy all the process were before I was frustrated learning new skills and making mistakes etc now I realise its not just the kit or the type but all stages of the build are enjoyable. Its the enjoyment of learning and using certain tools, Paints and Techniques that we enjoy but often overlook. That's why its good to share our collective knowledge. Its not just about the history, the subject, the kit.

I have picked up some Daler and Rowney low odur thinners ,, Is this ok for enamels. I thought it would be useful anyway and picked up some Tamiya primer sprays to try with the enamels.

Cheers Rob

[Procopius]

Whats this cookie business, I don't mind I just wanna know the joke thats all..

Oh, it's a nickname debate, and dare I say it, the issue of our times: which is the better diminutive for Cookenbacher? Cooken (,no), or Cookie (yes). Sorry to have obtruded into the thread with it.

[robvulcan]

Oh, it's a nickname debate, and dare I say it, the issue of our times: which is the better diminutive for Cookenbacher? Cooken (,no), or Cookie (yes). Sorry to have obtruded into the thread with it.

No its ok, I wonder what Cookenbacher means anyways. With your suggestion of Cookie, It makes me think Cookie-Baker. I like Cookies. .. While were at it, What does Procopious mean ?

You all know what robvulcan means = Idiot called rob who can't stop making plastic triangles....

[Procopius]

I'm afraid I'm going to look terribly pretentious. Procopius was a Byzantine court historian during the reign of the Emperor Justinian; he wrote a history of Justinian's wars with the Goths, and another about the Emperor's building projects. In general, these are fawning works, very much in hagiographical tradition. However, these are not what Procopius was famous for. He also wrote a book he called "The Secret History", collecting all the evidence and rumors of corruption in the Imperial Court that he could find (including some that were most certainly spurious, like daemonic possession), though he knew that it could never be published in his lifetime, and that if it were discovered, he would likely be tortured to death. I can't help but feel his utter faith in history was rather heroic, since he knew he would never see The Secret History published in his lifetime. Here's part of his introduction:

"Still another thing for a long time deferred my passion to relieve myself of this untold tale. For I wondered if it might be prejudicial to future generations, and the wickedness of these deeds had not best remain unknown to later times: lest future tyrants, hearing, might emulate them. It is deplorably natural that most monarchs mimic the sins of their predecessors and are most readily disposed to turn to the evils of the past.

"But, finally, I was again constrained to proceed with this history, for the reason that future tyrants may see also that those who thus err cannot avoid retribution in the end, since the persons of whom I write suffered that judgment. Furthermore, the disclosure of these actions and tempers will be published for all time, and in consequence others will perhaps feel less urge to transgress.

"For who now would know of the unchastened life of Semiramis or the madness of Sardanapalus or Nero, if the record had not thus been written by men of their own times? Besides, even those who suffer similarly '-from later tyrants will not find this narrative quite unprofitable. For the miserable find comfort in the philosophy that not on them alone has evil fallen."

[Cookenbacher]

Procopius, champion of justice against daunting odds. I daresay you lived up to your screen name with your Lightning build PC.

Not nearly as exciting as Procopius, Cookenbacher is just a name I made up when I was very young for whenever a fake name was needed, and I eventually came up with the present spelling of it in grade school. I did a web search for it recently and got some hits though! So maybe it's a real name somewhere.

Rob, I think your work in progress threads are very popular because you explain everything so well, and foster a community atmosphere in them.

I don't know about Daler and Rowney low odour thinners, but it looks like it probably has a white spirit base. I think it will work, but for the same price you could probably get a gallon of generic white spirit. The Kleanstrip brand white spirit (mineral spirits in the states) that you linked to above is the exact thing I use, but I don't know if they're in the UK. It's just cheap 'hardware store' thinner, but it works great.

[robvulcan]

Procopius, champion of justice against daunting odds. I daresay you lived up to your screen name with your Lightning build PC.

Not nearly as exciting as Procopius, Cookenbacher is just a name I made up when I was very young for whenever a fake name was needed, and I eventually came up with the present spelling of it in grade school. I did a web search for it recently and got some hits though! So maybe it's a real name somewhere.

Rob, I think your work in progress threads are very popular because you explain everything so well, and foster a community atmosphere in them.

I don't know about Daler and Rowney low odour thinners, but it looks like it probably has a white spirit base. I think it will work, but for the same price you could probably get a gallon of generic white spirit. The Kleanstrip brand white spirit (mineral spirits in the states) that you linked to above is the exact thing I use, but I don't know if they're in the UK. It's just cheap 'hardware store' thinner, but it works great.

Cheers Mate, Interesting about the name. Its a cool name.

I don't know if my builds are popular or not, I just do them and enjoy them. I think I bore people with my Vulcans however. as when I do something non Vulcan it seems to get more interest. Maybe the Vulcan is not that popular. I thought it was popular but I am not so sure after attending shows you rarely see them.

But there will be a very very long thread started on that soon that will likely be Vulcan based but hopefully I am mixing up my builds more now.

I can't wait for the Pit Road Victor !

Cheers I tried the Daler and Rowney on an old tin of Humbrol 23 Duck egg blue and it work great it seams. Levelled off the paint too. Best of all it don't smell as much and it seems to reduce the pong from the tin. I love the smell but I will get on people waz if I start using the smelly stuff again.. God I miss it..

I will nip down B&Q and see what they have. I like to experiment, Which reminds me I still need to do a review on that Klear alternative I found.

Cheers Rob

[Cookenbacher]

Oh and I've used Tamiya rattle can primers with enamels. Make sure they dry completely before applying enamel paint though. I had a portion of a camo scheme start to bubble up once, but it eventually settled down. I think that the primer was still off-gasing .

That being said, my favorite primer is enamel paint itself. Maybe pick up a rattle can of matt enamel paint and see if you like brushing over it with thinned enamel the way you do with acrylics?

[Cookenbacher]

Glad the Daler and Rowney worked! And I would love to hear about the Klear/Future alternative.

This conversation got me curious, so I did a web search about these thinners. White spirit (mineral spirits) are a mixture of hydrocarbons from C7 to C12. Naphtha is a slightly lighter mixture of C5 to C12. So basically the same stuff. Odourless white spirit is probably safer to use on a long term basis because the C6 (hexane) has been removed and hexane can be benzene, which is bad.

Nerd alert - no need to read further if you are already bored. These are all hydrocarbons that come out of the ground with oil and gas production. The number after the 'C' refers to how many carbon atoms are in the molecule that make up that particular hydrocarbon. C1 is methane, CH₄ (1 Carbon atom, 4 hydrogens). Natural gas (the kind we cook and heat our houses with) is like 99% methane and the rest is tiny percentages of the larger molecules. The main job of refineries is to divide up the various 'cuts' of hydrocarbons for different uses - one of which is to divide out the C7's to C12's for thinning our enamel paints. Coincidentally this is also near the range required to make gasoline/petrol.

[robvulcan]

That was all fascinating mate.

So basically if your using enamels your a petrol head modeller.

Cool.

The floor polish I had used on my 1/32 Spitfire build it is from Lakeland but not the more famous quickshine this one is half the price and called underwoods floods polish.

I heard good things about tamiya white and grey primer so thought I would give it a go.

I hear it's ok with enamels too but it did concern me as I hear enamel over acylic is a no no,

However I think as tamiya is lacquer based its ok.

Either way I am going to give Halfords a try. I used to use them

Exclusively when I used to also only use enamels 10 year ago. But fell out of love with Halfords when it went gummy and broke up after a day, not good. I tried new tins and it was the same. I then heard it was the new normal and they had trouble with new formulas.

I then turned to anothe brand which had not pigment in and dissolved my model.

I left aerosols alone then till I tried the new Humbrol. But I hear nothing but praise for the Halfords cans for priming now. I know Canberra kid and General Melchett love them so can't be bad.

I might do a vulcan in appliance white to try it out.

Cheers Rob