Spitfire memorial.

[aerotechi]

As a memorial to my late grandfather I am looking at making a spitfire in the squadron markings he served with during the war, so I am after a few opinions.

1. Recommended model of a Spitfire Mk XI PR 1/24 or 1/48 scale

2. Any SEAC decals that can be made or come for a PR varient. (large roundel)

3. Any sites anybody knows of that I can look up aircraft reg by squadron and year.

I have a picture of 681 squadron Spit Mk XI PR at Kai Tak 1945 but can only see the last 2 digits of its reg and the white Y on aft fuse.

Any help or pointers greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

[Edgar]

EN679 "B" later "G"; MB891 "A"; MB898 "J"; MB904 "D"; MB911 "I"; PA841 "U"; PA856 "U"; PA862 "W"; PA890 "B"; PA908 "E"; PA913 "P"; PA926 "J"; PA940 "N"; PA951 "F"; PL769 "A"; PL773 "D"; PL784 "M"; PL791 "C"; PL838 "G"; PL852 "M"; PL884 "L"; PL898 "N"; PL907 "V"; PL951 "K"; PL969 "X"; PL982 "Y"; PL997"S"; PM129 "H". Going by normal practice of P.R. Squadrons not carrying codes, the single letter is likely to be all they had.

All of these are in "Coastal Support and Special Squadrons," by John Rawlings, ISBN 0-71060187-5 (but it's like hens teeth to find.) Rawlings seems to have got most of his information from the Squadron ORB, so a visit to Kew should give you what you need. Weather permitting, I should be there next Saturday (I was there, yesterday, which is a mite unfortunate,) so, if you're after a specific date, it's an easy task to look.

[NPL]

Try here

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coastal-Support-Special-Squadrons-Aircraft/dp/0710601875/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414396454&sr=8-1&keywords=Rawlings%2C+John+D.R.+Coastal%2C+Support+and+Special+Squadrons+of+the+RAF+and+their+Aircraft

[ben_m]

This is a great SEAC reference for PR:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eyes-Phoenix-Photo-Reconnaissance-Operations-South-East/dp/0951989944

I have it at home, and will take a look for any useful info for you.

As for kits, in 1/24 you would be looking at a conversion from the Trumpeter or Airfix Mk. I or V. Heritage did a resin conversion, now out of stock. I would go 1/32 if you are looking for a big model, and convert the Tamiya IX- you'll need to make a big chin and a source a new windscreen (Grey Matter do a PR windscreen and canopy in 1/32).

The Airfix 1/48 XIX would be a good donor for a wet wing, if you don't want to do conversion work; it could be combined with a ICM or Eduard IX. Eduard said that they will eventually release a XI based on their IX, but it could be a long wait.

A great reference for modelling the XI is this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Merlin-Spitfires-Detail-Classic-Warbirds/dp/0958229651

The majority of the diagrams and photos in the book refer to the XI.

[NPL]

in 1/32 Alleycat has made a conversion set that seems good.

[Miggers]

For 1/48th,put an ICM or Eduard Spit IX fuselage onto an Airfix PR.XIX wing to start with

and modify/detail from there.

[aerotechi]

Thanks for the replies. Lots of good ideas and resources to look into. Special thanks Edgar as "PL982 "Y" ties in nicely with what I can see in the pic I have.

And NPL that alleycat conversion looks promising.

[leyreynolds]

EN679 "B" later "G"; MB891 "A"; MB898 "J"; MB904 "D"; MB911 "I"; PA841 "U"; PA856 "U"; PA862 "W"; PA890 "B"; PA908 "E"; PA913 "P"; PA926 "J"; PA940 "N"; PA951 "F"; PL769 "A"; PL773 "D"; PL784 "M"; PL791 "C"; PL838 "G"; PL852 "M"; PL884 "L"; PL898 "N"; PL907 "V"; PL951 "K"; PL969 "X"; PL982 "Y"; PL997"S"; PM129 "H". Going by normal practice of P.R. Squadrons not carrying codes, the single letter is likely to be all they had.

All of these are in "Coastal Support and Special Squadrons," by John Rawlings, ISBN 0-71060187-5 (but it's like hens teeth to find.) Rawlings seems to have got most of his information from the Squadron ORB, so a visit to Kew should give you what you need. Weather permitting, I should be there next Saturday (I was there, yesterday, which is a mite unfortunate,) so, if you're after a specific date, it's an easy task to look.

Plenty of copies on Ebay for less than AUD100.00. If memory serves, the Fighter and Bomber volumes were around AUD50.00 in the 1970's.

[ben_m]

I've taken some photos of the sources I have- reproduced here for education and discussion. I think both these books are excellent sources, and have lots of information in the text that would probably be of interest to you too.

BP880- a PR IV trop

MB776

FL773

PA860 (somewhere online- IWM?- there is a high res version of this crash photo)

PA934

PA935

PL781

PL855

PL 862

PL863

PL897

PL951

PL982

I know some of these have been made as decal schemes fairly recently- the FDP in script on the nose in particular I remember, and 'Vewwy Funny' maybe too- maybe it was A2Zee or Freightdog?

[ben_m]

Just checked and it was Alleycat who did the decals for several of these. This conversion set for the Tamiya IX has them included:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/AC32021C

[aerotechi]

Ben thank you so much those pics are very very useful!

Come the new year when things should be more settled Ill have a nice little starting point certainly with that alleycat conversion.

[NPL]

not wanting to be a match spoiler: but having been in higher education for almost all of my life I can say that publishing from a book still in circulation is not a good idea. Educational institutions pay a lot of money for the permission to use such material for education and discussion. I am not sure that it is a solution to write across the photos here for education and discussion as fair use.

The laws may be different in GB but I do not think so.

[ben_m]

I have been in Higher Education all my working life, I don't feel it has improved my legal knowledge.

The licences bought by universities (we have this one in the UK http://he.cla.co.uk/complying-with-your-licence/what-can-be-copied/) allow for whole chapters to be copied. This is a clear case where the publisher and author will have lost sales due to the institution not needing to buy multiple copies of a printed work. Instead of every member of a course buying a textbook just for one chapter from it, the institution can scan and distribute electronic copies of the whole chapter.

Fair dealing in the UK does not require a licence:
https://www.gov.uk/exceptions-to-copyright

There is no statutory definition of fair dealing - it will always be a matter of fact, degree and impression in each case. The question to be asked is: how would a fair-minded and honest person have dealt with the work?
Factors that have been identified by the courts as relevant in determining whether a particular dealing with a work is fair include:

• does using the work affect the market for the original work? If a use of a work acts as a substitute for it, causing the owner to lose revenue, then it is not likely to be fair
• is the amount of the work taken reasonable and appropriate? Was it necessary to use the amount that was taken? Usually only part of a work may be used

I have not reproduced a large proportion of the work (and I have reproduced very little of the text, just restricting it to the captions). I do not believe the publisher or author has lost money due to my actions. If you have used Google Books, you can see how far fair dealing can be taken.

This is a very different situation from the case of airliners.net images being hot-linked into this forum. The business model for airliners.net is based upon advertising revenue, which is lost when images are hotlinked. Clearly the publisher is losing out in that situation, compared to using a normal link to the image within the airliners.net site.

The overlaid text was to ensure that the images cannot be reproduced easily somewhere else, where fair use would not apply. For the same reason the photos are not taken with the pages flat and square to the camera. It also ensures that even if someone saves the photos they will know their source.

The copyright status of published work does not change when it is out of print, it is not a free-for-all if the publisher has decided there is no demand for more print runs.

I am very happy with the protection copyright gives to me as a photographer and despite what many other people think, I think the copyright system is very fair and I believe a good one. If people perpetuate myths about the strictness of copyright, then it seems to give misplaced justification to those who break the rules.

Lastly, I apologise for the deviation from the topic.

[aerotechi]

681 SQU only aircraft PL982 "Y" at RAF Kai Tak.

[ben_m]

That's a really great shot, thanks for sharing it.

Do you know much about your grandfather's exeriences?

[gingerbob]

Just to confirm (someone else may already have, but oh well!) that 'Y' in the photo above can ONLY be PL982.

bob

[aerotechi]

Apologise for the disjointed nature just typing as I remember things.

I know a reasonable amount. I have a copy of his service record and bit that he told me. Such as he joined up as RAF Regiment but his unit was disbanded so went over to the airframe mechanic side (where I get my jet fuel blood from) on and that he was in 681 in India and Hong Kong (all the pics I have are from Hong Kong including pics of theJapanesepeace envoy arrival [Rangoon 15 aug 45] andJapanesePOWs, and a little more gruesom pic of a cliff and grave where some executions took place)

He did tell me once when I was learning aircraft skin repairs that if the spits got shot up in the wing say they would just change the wing bolt a new one on and send the old one back to main base or the workshop for repair.

According to his service record he was trained on Spitfire XI, XIX and harvard.

He flew in a Sunderland when he was out there and said the sound of it before take off was like the hull was being ripped off. (pic in collection of sunderland WQ-L all white)

I cant tell you that Christmas dinner in 1945 at Kai Tak was Tomato soup, Roast turkey, Roast pork, Potatoes, vegtanles, Apple sauce, Xmas pudding, Brandy sauce, Fruit and cream, Beer.

I also have is RAF Eagles, rank badges, and Cap with badge along with his medals (39-45 star, Burma star, Defence medal, 39-45 war medal)

And if anybody likes old money I have;-

one Government of India 1 rupee military administration of burma (legal tender in burma only)

one dollar the government of the straights settlements

one Japanese government 10 Dollars

one Japanses government 1 cent (note)

and an old bent sixpence for good measure (1918)

If you are interested in any of the pics Ben let me know ill see what I can do to show you.