Olive Drab

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Rather than post something everytime I build something with Olive Drab camouflage, I'm wondering if there's a general rule of thumb you can go by for most builds.

What I've been doing up till now is using a 'browny' Olive Drab for most US aircraft but more of a Green when painting UK based aircraft (because I know many are thought to have used RAF Dark Green). Is this a good thing to keep doing or should I be doing something different?

My current build is a Hasegawa B-25H, which I believe was a Pacific based aircraft.

thanks

Mike

[Darby]

Many are the shades of Olive Drab and this will no doubt open a massive can of worms/discussion etc. just like a glossy Javelin did. At the end of the day IMO there is no 'one shade cures all.' I used my last coveted tin of the old Compucolour until recently when it finally decided to cease it's 'loaves and fishes' act after years of sterling effort. I use Xtracolour now or Tamiya acrylics. No doubt the FS/RLM/Methuen police will have me in for interrogation over this and possibly a re-education programme but at the end of the day if it looks like OD that's good enough for me.

Good Luck

[Graham Boak]

Can of worms time. There was a lot of accepted variation in the colour, even on single types - C-47s being perhaps particularly prone to having three different shades on the same aircraft plus Medium Green blotches. I am sympathetic to your approach of a browny green on the mid-war types because I recall a very old Harleyford comment that C-47s were painted in Dark Earth, which is a bit of a hint. This seems to have been less true of later years - but the use of RAF Dark Green was specific to fighters around D-Day and after because stocks of OD had been run down in anticipation of bare metal becoming the norm. Uppersurface camouflage was then thought to be necessary for those 8thAF groups intended to move to the Continent. The greener AN613 OD was said to have been used in the last year of the war but this has been denied by recent researchers.

US ground vehicles were also said to have a browny OD compared to the UK equivalent SCC15 Olive Drab, but here I think the emphasis is on the comparative not the absolute.

Pacific-operated aircraft can be expected to fade more rapidly than in Europe.

Interpretation of colour film is of course highly dependent upon the printing process, but I think there's enough published to confirm my opinion that at least the earlier aircraft faded to brown, but others differ...

Edited October 25, 2014 by Graham Boak

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I'm using Vallejo paints, so I'm not bothered if the shades are exact. It's more of a case of should it be Greeny Olive Drab or Browny Olive Drab? I tend to fade the paintwork a bit anyway, so again, it's not a big problem for me if the base shade is totally correct.

thanks

Mike

PS - Just a quick glance at my stash reveals the following bombers that need OD - B-17F Memphis Belle, B-25J '38th BG' and A-20G Havoc 'D-day'. The rest of the stuff needing OD are fighters, a few Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Warhawks, a P-39 and a couple of Lightnings.

So, anything before June 1944, go for the Browner OD and Jun 44 and after use the Greener OD for European a/c? Would the Pacific units used the Browner OD throughout WW2?

Edited October 25, 2014 by Mikemx

[Nick Millman]

No doubt the FS/RLM/Methuen police will have me in for interrogation over this and possibly a re-education programme

I doubt it. But it's a nice thought.

[Jennings Heilig]

(because I know many are thought to have used RAF Dark Green).

With *very* rare exceptions, I've never seen anything like conclusive proof that this was the case. The only airplanes that I can readily accept *may* have used RAF Dark Green were airplanes delivered in natural metal which were then camouflaged in the UK. But those are pretty rare in the big scheme of the world. The vast, overwhelming majority of USAAF airplanes left the factory in Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, and there is no reason to think they didn't remain in OD/NG.

[PFlint]

the Douglas A-20 Boston (A-20G-10 IIRC ?) switched to ANA 613 Olive Drab that is not as dark or brown as OD 41 (a "greener"OD)

so the rest of those built had cammo in ANA 603/612/613

if you can photographically confirm dark green blotches on the leading and trailing edges of the flying surfaces then that aircraft is

in the ANA scheme.

[Graham Boak]

The dark green blotches on the leading and trailing edges were Medium Green, as specified as standard in the early 40s with the original OD and often seen on the earlier production variants. They did seem to fall from use on later aircraft, so if anything their absence is a hint of the ANA colour. However, Dana Bell (and others) have found no evidence of use on USAAF aircraft, apparently due to opposition in the higher circles.

[Nick Millman]

FWIW I think you are trying to apply a convention to a subject that was much more haphazard. Whilst there were fixed colour standards for both OD 41 and ANA 613 the pigment formulae were not mandated so in addition to variations in manufactured paints as applied they could and did age and weather in different directions.

The Far East/Pacific climate tended to be harsher anyway, combining those elements in combination most destructive to a paint surface of heat, harsh light, heavy rain and high humidity. When the US Army tested various manufacturers Olive Drabs in 1944 they plotted them against a Munsell standard and grouped them according to their colour "character" (with fixed measurements) as to which were acceptable or not. All were Munsell Y - Yellows - from 7.0 Y 3.7/1.73 to 5.9 Y 3.90/1.59, but to give some idea of the variance without going into the actual measurement results here are the groups of described colour in preferred order:-

1 Dusky green yellow

2 Weak olive green

3 Yellowish brown

4 Pale brown

5 Weak brown

6 Medium reddish brown

7 Brownish grey

8 Weak reddish brown

9 Olive grey

Acceptance was rated from an average of ten observers regardless of measurements and surprisingly there were accepted paints in all the colour groups.

In January 1943, Major A.I. Totten Jr. of the Army Resources and Production Division proposed to consolidate the two shades of Olive Drab in use at the time, the USAAF dark Olive Drab 41 and the Army Ground Forces (AGF) Olive Drab, into a new colour Army/Navy (AN) 319, which was the same colour as the AGF Olive Drab. Major Totten's proposal was passed to the JAC Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage by the Director of Military Requirements in February 1943 and approved by them in March 1943, prior to the promulgation of the ANA colours. By the time a standard for ANA 613 had been accepted the bulk of aircraft were no longer being camouflaged anyway, but its use as a standard is apparent from manufacturer's specifications. One of the reasons for the delay in introducing a standard for ANA 613 related to the reflectance requirements. The original Dark Olive Drab was 7.8% but tests by Material Command Engineering Division at Eglin Field in June 1943 revealed that the new paint had a reflectivity of 9.4% which exceeded the recommended 8%. Various measures were then undertaken to reduce the reflectivity of ANA 613 before it was accepted for use as a standard.

The standards 319 in 3-1 Revised of April 1943 and 613 of ANA Bulletin 157 of September 1943 were supposed to be equivalents and have been reported as identical. The 1943 Bulletin 157 ANA 613 Olive Drab and Dark Olive Drab 41 standards are however slightly different in appearance. The Munsell values reveal that although both are of the same hue ANA 613 is slightly more towards YR (Yellow Red, e.g. more “brownish”) than OD 41 which is slightly closer to GY (Green Yellow, e.g. slightly more “greenish”) but the Value (lightness/darkness) and Chroma (saturation) are similar - ANA 613 being slightly lighter and less saturated than OD 41. But curiously the closest FS equivalents to the wartime standards tend to reverse this impression!

The idea that ANA 613 was greener probably arises from comparing it to the post-war standard FS 34087 which was significantly browner than the wartime OD.

So I think, worry less, model more. Be happy.

[Selwyn]

I doubt it. But it's a nice thought.

But us BS381C Guys are very worried!

Selwyn

(Head under the duvet yet again!)

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I've actually got some Xtracrylix ANA 613 to finish off, as well as some of their Neutral Grey (and there Med Green for camou patches), but once the Xtracrylix paints run out, it'll be Vallejo paints only as I'm not a huge fan of Xtracrylix.

Nick - Worry less and Model more is exactly the point. I'm quite happy to paint everything using the ANA 613 (or nearest Vallejo equivalent) unless it was one of those that may have used RAF Dark Green (or something similar). So hence my need for a rough rule so I can just get on with modelling!

thanks

Mike

[Darby]

On a certain website beginning with H and ending in annants there are 4 shades of Xtracolor OD, 3 in the Xtracrylic range and probably more by other manufacturers, it's true I saw them! Anyway enough of this OD, what about black? Is it really black or a darkened white?

[JackG]

Is the colour chart found here of any use?

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/tnt1/101-200/tnt187-painting-Rapasi/00.shtm

regards,

Jack

[Nick Millman]

Is the colour chart found here of any use?

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/tnt1/101-200/tnt187-painting-Rapasi/00.shtm

regards,

Jack

In a word, no. The difference between that ANA 613 and the measured standard for ANA 613 is 10.5 where 2.0 or less is a close match.

[HL-10]

Both these vehicles are painted "Olive Drab".

how to take screenshots

There are so many variations to this colour, I personally don't get too tied up on the "correct" shade

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Is the colour chart found here of any use?

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/tnt1/101-200/tnt187-painting-Rapasi/00.shtm

regards,

Jack

No, it complicates matters for me. As previously stated I'm not bothered if I use the exact shades or not. I just need to know when to use the Browner OD, like ANA 613 or whether to use a more Green OD, more like RAF Dark Green.

thanks

Mike

[Navy Bird]

I have 10 bottles of OD, from a total of 8 manufacturers (Testors, Gunze, PollyScale, Floquil, Xtracolor, Vallejo, Pactra, Tamiya). They're all different. Granted, some are supposed to be ANA OD, some are supposed to be modern FS, etc. But, boy, do they come in handy when you want to post shade a weathered old bird!

I like Nick's advice: Worry less, model more!

Cheers,

Bill

[Darby]

I have 10 bottles of OD, from a total of 8 manufacturers (Testors, Gunze, PollyScale, Floquil, Xtracolor, Vallejo, Pactra, Tamiya). They're all different. Granted, some are supposed to be ANA OD, some are supposed to be modern FS, etc. But, boy, do they come in handy when you want to post shade a weathered old bird!

I like Nick's advice: Worry less, model more!

Cheers,

Bill

I certainly agree with that last sentence

[Seawinder]

No, it complicates matters for me. As previously stated I'm not bothered if I use the exact shades or not. I just need to know when to use the Browner OD, like ANA 613 or whether to use a more Green OD, more like RAF Dark Green.

thanks

Mike

I just don't think there's any hard-and-fast criterion you can apply -- there were simply too many variations in production of, and climatic effects on, the paints. You mentioned B-25 at the top of the thread. Here's a wartime photo of a late model Mitchell taken, I'm pretty sure, at Clark Field, the Philippines in 1945. The OD is dark, neither strongly brownish nor extensively faded, its Pacific station notwithstanding.

[bobmig]

In one of his books, Dana Bell, noted US camouflage colour researcher, wrote:

"One serious problem appeared during extended durability tests of the new permanent camouflage colours. On 30 September 1940 the Air Corps Board issued a report complaining about the poor durability of permanent Dark Olive Drab paint. In a test involving three B-12s after 9 months, all three aircraft showed considerable fading and deterioration. A second test with four B-10s showed slight fading after only two months.

"The colour usually tended to fade to buff or brown. Later war experiences recorded a wide range of colours when O.D. faded, e.g., from reddish pinks to mousey grays. Because of the urgency in camouflaging a large number of aircraft, the unsatisfactory paint was used pending the formulation of Dark Olive Drab with better weathering characteristics. Thus, planes painted during the early part of the war eventually weathered considerably to a variety of colours depending on local conditions."

I also recall reading somewhere, though I can't recall where at the moment, that the early paint formulations tended to fade to brownish hues, while the later paints tended to fade to greenish shades. Oh, and BTW... though the official colour designation was "Dark Olive Drab", the "Dark" was almost never used.

[Fernando]

Hi, Bobmig,

Well, ther was a Light Olive Drab, n° 35, I think... and I seem to remember that the book by Robert Archer says it was used in some cuasi-experimental camo scheme on early A-20s

Fernando

[Fernando]

Hi, HL-10,

That is "another" Olive Drab, I guess Corps of Engineers, meant for ground material. The paint formulation (and I guess procurement chain) is completely different. I even seem to remember that air paint was expressly excluded from some document and regulations of the Corps... It was on some of the documents reproduced in the book by Robert Archer, but I do not have it at hand.

Fernando

Edited November 25, 2014 by Fernando

[bobmig]

Hi, Bobmig,

Well, ther was a Light Olive Drab, n° 35, I think... and I seem to remember that the book by Robert Archer says it was used in some cuasi-experimental camo scheme on early A-20s

Fernando

Yes... according to Archer, the only aircraft which used Light Olive Drab 35 were the first 44 A-20s, which used a pattern of Dark and Light Olive Drabs. Apparently the results were not especially effective, and so Light Olive Drab was discontinued, leaving the Dark Olive Drab over Neutral Grey scheme to become the standard.

[Doug Rogers]

I think the best thing to do is try and find a photo of the kit your building, or failing that another aircraft in the same squadron in the same theatre of Ops, so at least in theory it should be painted roughly the same.

[Tom Hall]

Mike, have a look at this, starting a little over 11 minutes into the film:

These planes were so blotchy, even when new, that you have considerable leeway (and challenge in replicating the effect).