A question for the ex-FAA gang

[andrewa]

Hi folks,

I know there are a few ex-Fleet Air Arm Aircrew and aircraft handlers about and can't think of a better place to ask a question or two about aircraft movements for my Hermes build.

I'm thinking about having a Sea King HC4 being moved onto the deck-edge lift by a tug ready to be dropped into the hanger. I think it would be positioned athwart-ships with the nose inboard and tail hanging over the side. How would the tug be connected to the cab? My current guess is that it would be to the tailwheel, with the tug pushing the cab around from the side? I also guess there would be a few wing walkers to make sure everything stayed onboard ship?

Everything not in use would be tied down to the decks - is there a standard number/patten of tiedowns used (there must be - it's the navy after all), and are the aircraft always chocked as well?

What happens to tow-bars not in use, are they left attached to aircraft or the tugs or moved to a storage location? Ditto for aircrew ladders?

Many thanks,

Andrew

[Wafu]

Hi Andrew,

I'll chuck my ten peneth in first and let the Woo's follow.

I was on the H in 81 with a Wessex V. The Aircraft Handlers (being nice to our fellow Wafus) would push the Wessex or Sea King right up to the edge of the lip on the side lift, a very un-nerving experience for a young Naval Air Engineer as you had your seating position just over the edge of the deck looking straight down at the sea rushing past, you always had one hand on the PSP raft that you sat on and power on the aircraft to set the floats off if you were on a Sea King just in case the tractor drive didn't stop at the edge of the lip of the deck.

The tractor and towing arm came off the aircraft on the flight deck as the hangar movements crew used an electrical powered tug to move the aircraft in the hangar, the tug's jaws grabbed the tail wheel and was steered by a dead mans handle with the operator walking behind. Back on the deck the tractors usually had a bar on the front of the tractor unless the tractor was used to replenish the harriers with Demin water then it was removed. Tow bars usually had a single nylon lashing through the eye end cos the tractor when finished would hook straight back up.

The Wessex was normally lashed on the flight deck with four lashings ( off white nylon) coming off each ring bolt on the tail x2 then one off the top of each oleo strut at the top near the pilots window. The sea king had two off each sponson on the main legs at 45 degrees to the aircraft centre line and at 90 degrees to each other, it had two coming off the tail wheel oleo going aft at 45 degrees from the tail boom.

Hope this helps.

Cheers the Woo

[Smudge]

I think Wafu has pretty much nailed it. Never served on the H myself, and I believe she was the only Royal Navy carrier with a deck edge lift (stand to be corrected). I suspect the lift was too small a take an aircraft athwart-ships, or 'sideways' as we used to say in the FAA.

The aircraft would be positioned nose for'ard or aft depending on where she was going/coming from on the Hangar deck. Aircraft parked up for any length of time would be lashed down with chains, nylon lashings were/are a more temporary affair, easier to get on and off but not as strong. An aircraft on a lift would be nylon lashed as described, but on that deck edge lift in rough weather, probably put a couple of extra ones on for good measure. Thinking aloud, I don't think the deck edge lift was used if the weather got a bit too roughers, one of it's design weaknesses.

The only time an aircraft wouldn't be chocked was when it was airborne. Don't forget to fold your tail boom on the lift, forgetting to check it could ruin your whole day

[Rob G]

See, it's stuff like this that makes forums like this one such an invaluable resource - living testimony from people who've been there, done that! I may never want to model a Wessex or Sea King on a deck-edge lift, but it was an interesting read nonetheless. Thank you gentlemen.

[Roof Rat]

Hello Andrew

My fellow ex-Wafu's have hit the nail on the head with their replies.

I'm in the process of getting ready for a loft conversion at home so my photo mountain is boxed-up at present, however if I get an opportunity at the weekend / next week I'll have a dig to see if I can come up with anything to help with the explanations above.

With regards

RR

[andrewa]

Thanks for the input everyone - as Rob G said, the members of this forum are a terrific source of real world knowledge.

Moving onto the SHars, and Hars, would they also have 6 lashings - 2 at each of nose and outriggers, with the lashings 90deg apart at 45deg port/starboard or fore and aft respectively? While in the deck park would tow bars and ladders ever be left with the aircraft or always detached and stored?

This next one is a bit specific to South Atlantic '82 operations, but in a few photos it appears that one of the two lynxes was spotted at the stern ready to fly on missile decoy duties - but there are no identified landing spots in that location. I can't see a reason why that would be a big problem - any ideas whether it would have been operated directly from there?

Also any specific procedures for the flight deck vehicles? again the photos seem to show them lashed wherever space was available, but with a vehicle park ahead of the island for most of them.

Again many thanks for the input.

A

[Wafu]

Thanks chockhead I knew I'd miss things out. Your spot on about the chains, eight chain lashings for both Sea Kings and Wessex.

Cheers the Woo

[Roof Rat]

Hello Andrew

These may help ref lashings:-

This shows tractor and towing arm in use

The light coloured piece of equipment by the tail wheel of the Sea King is the device for moving the a/c in the hanger that the Woo mentioned

I hope this has been of help

With regards

RR

[Smudge]

Hi andrewa, those photo's from Roof Rat are great aren't they, and speak a thousand words!

It's been a while, but the photo's jogged the memory. General rule of thumb for lashings is: nice calm sunny day=4, rough horrible wet day= how many ringbolts can you reach from the aircraft! If you look at those Shars pictured above you'll get the idea. The one in the little photo has four on the nose leg, the others in the nice sunny day photo's have only two.

They stay on until the point of final taxi for take off, when the ship is heading into wind and everything is ready for the launch.

You are right about the flight deck tractors, they are parked wherever there is a space not taken up by an aircraft, but generally by the Island. A flight deck can be a busy place for a tractor, but when parked up would be chain lashed out of the way of flying ops.

Towing arms are rarely left on aircraft, they get in the way and can cause damage to the undercarriage. They belong on the tractor, the two are mutually inclusive. If a spare towing arm finds itself on the flight deck, it would be lashed near the tractors by the side of the Island. But they get in the way and Squaddies trip over them, so they generally live in the hanger.

As Wafu mentioned earlier, flight deck tractors were converted for Sea Harrier ops by having a large water tank on the back, used to top up the Shars de-mineralised water tank. The towing arm would often be removed for this task as the tractor would be trying to manoeuvre in a tight space between the aircraft.

Can't comment on South Atlantic Lynx ops I'm afraid. All I might guess is that they could quite easily operate from anywhere on the deck, but would not want to be at the back (aft/stern) when the Sea Harriers get lined up to go!

Glad to help and thanks for your interest. It's not everyday I get to chat about chain and bottle lashings and flight deck tractors.

Good luck with your model.

(a 'bottle' is the thing at the top of the chain. It has a clamp at one end to secure to the aircraft's tie down and a slot at the bottom to hook the chain in, then you screw it round to tighten it all up )

[Wafu]

Just a thought about the lynx, didn't the vinc get her lynx due to the Sheffield and Coventry flights managing to get off before they went down? There was no room in the assault fleet for them as deck space was at a primium but the South Africa tour used them as hacks/admirals barge etc.

I'll check this with an mate of mine who was on a 82 lynx flight.

[grahamwalker]

Did not eagle have a deck edge lift?

[andrewa]

Thanks for the very informative answers everyone - it's really helping me to get the details nailed.

Roof Rat - those photos are great reference, especially the first three that I've never seen before.

I've just finished scratching a complete set of tugs cranes and forklifts so will be applying me new knowledge soon!

A

[swordfish fairey]

Not the Hermes and not an RN aircraft but, it does give you some idea of the nylon lashings used....................(Ship is Ark Royal, Seaking RAN 1988)

[Smudge]

Did not eagle have a deck edge lift?

Can't find any pictures of Eagle (R05) with a deck edge lift, but interestingly did find an image of Ark Royal (R09) as originally configured, and she did have a deck edge lift. First Royal Navy carrier so fitted according to Wikipedia.

I stood to be corrected, and I therefore correct myself!

Eagle was Arks sister ship, but they shared little in common, so whether or not she had a deck edge lift or not, or any other RN carriers, I will leave that to the experts.

Hands to Flying Stations!

[andrewa]

For my next question...

I think I've got a grasp of the various Surcoat Colours:

Yellow - handlers

Blue - Handlers/tractors

Red w/black stripe - Armourer

white w/black stripe - Flight deck stoker

Brown - Air Engineer

Green - Electrics

Green w/blue stripe - Avionics

White w/red cross - medic

White - Air Engineer supervisory

White Overalls - Officer, most likely with yellow surcoat?

But..can someone give me an idea of how many of each trade would be on flight deck? I guess the majority would be Handlers (yellow and Blue) and Armourers, plus a few of the other trades. I know this is a really wide open question so even rough breakdowns would be a big help.

Thanks again gents,

A

[Smudge]

Hi andrewa,

Good work on sorting out the surcoat colours, I think you have pretty much got it sorted. Can't think of any others off the top of my head. You are right that most of the permanent flight deck party would be the yellow directors and blue handlers. 5/7 yellow 8/10 blue, for a through deck cruiser.

I think 'plane captains' were generally AEM(M) Brown jackets, so they would always be well represented, but someone like wafu and swordfish fairey will put you straight on squaddies.

Your best bet is to study some photo's of the kind of diorama you wish to portray. Different squadrons would supply different personnel for whatever the task might be, so it would be difficult to say exactly how many of any one trade would be on deck at any one time.

Don't forget a couple of Firesuitmen, with their fire extinguisher trolleys. Always loitering around at engine start up's and generally standing by at launch and recovery. There are a couple in the b/w photo of the SeaKing above. Blue was the original colour for these suits, latter suits were a dark green.

Looking forward to seeing your vehicles and matelots.

All the best.

Edited October 5, 2014 by chockhead

[Wafu]

For my next question...

I think I've got a grasp of the various Surcoat Colours:

Yellow - handlers

Blue - Handlers/tractors

Red w/black stripe - Armourer

white w/black stripe - Flight deck stoker

Brown - Air Engineer

Green - Electrics

Green w/blue stripe - Avionics

White w/red cross - medic

White - Air Engineer supervisory

White Overalls - Officer, most likely with yellow surcoat?

But..can someone give me an idea of how many of each trade would be on flight deck? I guess the majority would be Handlers (yellow and Blue) and Armourers, plus a few of the other trades. I know this is a really wide open question so even rough breakdowns would be a big help.

Thanks again gents,

A

Don't forget the Bombheads (WL'when I was in) with red with black stripe like the badgers.

Each aircraft (cab) would have one plane captain with a brown surcoat (grubber) and one greenie then add at least one pinkey (later called Avionics) per watch (shift) per squadron. Added to this would be a squadron leading hand of the deck ( could be any trade) at least one senior rate from each trade wearing white surcoat and on very occasional times ( like when it's sunny and warm) the Engineering Officer would come on deck with his Daz sponsored overalls. NB all others would wear navy blue overalls.

We only had one Badger on watch as he ensured fuel to the pumps be we the grubbers connected to the aircraft.

With 820 Sqdn, 801 Sqdn and 849 A Flt on the deck you could have at least 30 men for each Sqdn apart for 849 who would have about 10 men on deck. In addition as Chockhead says you would have at least one yellow surcoat per spot on the deck and the FDO (Flight Deck Officer) on watch at any one time. This is probably why with all those blades wizzing round, the jet engines burning and sucking and a small mix of ordnance sitting on a pitching deck made it a place you needed to focus and would be punished if you didn't.

Hope this helps

[andrewa]

Thanks both, very useful information, this is a big help.

Andrew

[Wafu]

No I in team

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Just a thought about the lynx, didn't the vinc get her lynx due to the Sheffield and Coventry flights managing to get off before they went down? There was no room in the assault fleet for them as deck space was at a primium but the South Africa tour used them as hacks/admirals barge etc.

I'll check this with an mate of mine who was on a 82 lynx flight.

Not sure about Shiny Sheff, but Coventry's Lynx definitely went down with the ship; you can see it still lashed to the deck as she heels over in some of the photos.

Ardent's was definitely destroyed, but Antelope's came to our deck (Fearless) for a day or two before moving on elsewhere. There was also quite a lot of swapping about; when Broadsword was bombed in the Coventry raid, for instance, she actually had three cabs on board - two of her own, both of which were I think u/s, and the one that had its nose taken off, which they had actually borrowed from Brilliant Flight because it had a different fit (MAD bird fitted, for instance - though not sure whether that was what they were after).

The South Africa Star boys did each have a Lynx at immediate readiness on deck, with some kind of early decoy jammer on board. Def not Admiral's barges.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Shar2]

From my time in the FAA. 1984 - 1992, there were only three trades, ok four if you include the handlers . These were Mechanical, (airframes and Engines, Grubbers), Brown surcoats, Weapons/Electrical, (everything electrical and bangy except radio and radar, Greenies, wot I was), Red and Black surcoats, and finally the Radio/Radar, (green surcoats, Pinkies).

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

On the Southland Lynx ops, I asked a mate who was in Hermes and he said that they sat on deck at immediate notice (switches made, ground power in, everything ready to go; just hit the ECU start when you get the word - I reckon at a pinch you could be airborne inside 90 seconds from that position). They'd have been put on the stern so they were out of everyone else's way, to be honest.

[Nobby57]

Can't find any pictures of Eagle (R05) with a deck edge lift, but interestingly did find an image of Ark Royal (R09) as originally configured, and she did have a deck edge lift. First Royal Navy carrier so fitted according to Wikipedia.

I stood to be corrected, and I therefore correct myself!

Eagle was Arks sister ship, but they shared little in common, so whether or not she had a deck edge lift or not, or any other RN carriers, I will leave that to the experts.

Hands to Flying Stations!

R05 indeed had a deck edge lift: in common with R09 she was built to the same specs. HMS Eagle lagged behind though due largely to budgetary concerns and looked very odd toward the end of her career, by comparison to her sister, having retained 5.25" AA mounts. Eagle also differed in deck plan towards the end, but remained capable nevertheless. EG. Did F-4 landing trials.

She also had a fore-mounted 'dustbin' and a 'bedstead' radar, instead of the twin 'bedstead's which Ark mounted both fore and aft on her island.

A beautiful carrier in her own right...I was fortunate to board her at Sembawang in the early Seventies...her only deck occupant being a solitary S.2B. HAPPY DAYS!