Morane Saulnier MS 406 - I'm trying to sort out

[leyreynolds]

the differences within the MS 406 production run. So far I've seen mention of:

- retractable radiator

- two gun wings

- four gun wings

- larger fixed radiator

- two styles of exhausts

but cannot readily identify how they are related (eg did airframes with the larger fixed radiator also have the four gun wing?) and/or if any features were retro-fits and if there was any logical tie-up with the serial. As far as I can tell the MS 406 has few detailed references in English. Any help will be most welcome.

[spitfire]

I'm no expert but from a quick look through my references the following seems to be the case;

Ms406 retractable radiator, all.

MS406 one gun per wing, all.

The MS410 had a revised wing with 2 guns per wing and a fixed radiator.

Cheers

Dennis

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hiya - right the 406 was armed with 1 drum fed MG per wing, plus the engine mounted cannon, and had the retractable radiator. Exhausts were the simple oval hole type though early 406s did use the Bronzavia downward curved pipes.

In an effort to improve the aircraft MS developed the 410 - this had 2 belt fed MGs per wing, a fixed radiator in a longer housing and ejector exhausts. Had the French got these into service - this would have been the standard fit for the 410. The germans let the french carry on building 410s post armistice, and a few 406s were also upgraded with new wings only I beleive too

Where it gets confusing is Finnish 406s - basically the germans sold the Finns sets of 410 parts after the fall of france - so you can see Finnish hybrid 406/410s - some with 2 mgs per wing, some with the 406 1 mg. Some have fixed 410 radiators some don't, and ditto with the exhaust. You really need a pic of the machine to see whats what.

this pic shows you a pretty much stock 410, although the exhausts still seem to be 406 ones!

The Swiss also license built the 406 as the D-3800, and then developed it into the D-3801 - with a different style of fixed radiator from the 410 and other features.

So basically for a battle of france aircraft - its a stock 406, for a Finnish one its mostly 406 with some hybrid aircraft, and for a Swiss one - its a 406 for the 3800, and a totally different machine for the 3801.

Hope that helps, but do PM me if you want more info.

The 406 is one of my faves

jonners

[Stew Dapple]

Jonners, you might have linked to the wrong pic there, or else the 410 was very much different to the 406 than I expected

Cheers,

Stew

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Jonners, you might have linked to the wrong pic there, or else the 410 was very much different to the 406 than I expected

Cheers,

Stew

Oops! yes - The Finns arent exactly known for their Desert us of Spitfires!! fixed it now.

Jonners

[VG 33]

Here are my Azur MS406 in French colours and MS410 in Finnish colours.

Patrick

[BS_w]

All MS406 were similar except:

early: Chauvière Propeller type 351(3,00m), variable pitch, pneumatic control

late : Ratier propeller type1607(3,10m), variable pitch, electric control

Two type of gunsight, OPL 31 with a reflector glass integrated in the wind screen(in this case the windscreen was divided in three parts), and another type(I don't remenber the model) mounted behind the windscreen

Bronzavia exhausts could be fitted on any MS 406, these exhaust pipes were originally designed for night flying.

On the side of each exhaust there was a long slot whose width is inversely proportional to the pressure. Thus the flame is blown by the wind.

Edited September 21, 2014 by BS_w

[Mitch K]

Thanks for this - it's useful stuff to supplement the books I've got.

[leyreynolds]

Thanks for all the details. I think I've got a handle on it now.

Ley

[BS_w]

I forgot, the earliest (some a/c) had Ratier propeller

[gingerbob]

The 406 is one of my faves

And here I thought you were a man of refined taste!

bob

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

And here I thought you were a man of refined taste!

bob

Nah, but i do like the unusual!

Jonners

[BS_w]

It's not the MS 406 which is really ugly, but its models.

All the models, at any scale, have a wrong cowling and fuselage. Too massive, too width and the overall shape is bad.

About Azur model 1/32:

http://lapatrouillesimple.forumgratuit.org/t495-morane-saulnier-406

http://lapatrouillesimple.forumgratuit.org/t61-morane-saulnier405-1-32

[MarkoZG]

It's not the MS 406 which is really ugly, but its models.

All the models, at any scale, have a wrong cowling and fuselage. Too massive, too width and the overall shape is bad.

About Azur model 1/32:

http://lapatrouillesimple.forumgratuit.org/t495-morane-saulnier-406

http://lapatrouillesimple.forumgratuit.org/t61-morane-saulnier405-1-32

Hi BS_w,

your remarks on the shape of kits nose are very interesting. I checked the links you provided and although I don't understand French, I got the picture of required modifications.

However what I didn't get is any evidence supporting this claim. I compared the existing kit's nose with photos of real planes and couldn't see the difference. Could you please support your theory with some references?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Marko

[dalea]

While we are on the subject. In what ways did the Ms 405 differ from the 406?

[BS_w]

. Could you please support your theory with some references?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Marko

Hello Marko,

I drew from the original technical data sheets and drawings about the MS 405 number 3, and MS 406.

a part of plans used, for the sections,all lenghts, radius, curves, are indicated on the plan form, thereby nothing is invented

In what ways did the Ms 405 differ from the 406?

405 vs 406

- engine: Hispano Suiza 12Grs, reduction gear 51/48 Vs Hispano Suiza 12Y31 reduction gear 2/3 (these two engines give 860hp at 3150m)

- propeller: Ratier 1495(2m60 dia) automatic variable pitch by windmilling vs Ratier 1607(3,10m) or Chauvière 351(3,00m)

Some 406 will receive a hispano propeller (license Hamilton).

there is another different détails, as the gauges... but not visible from exterior.

Edited October 26, 2014 by BS_w

[MarkoZG]

Thanks BS_w!

Any chance you could scan this in higher resolution so I could print it out for my reference?

Regarding MS.406, there were allegedly other subtypes of which I couldn't find any photo: MS.407LP, MS.411, MS.412.

Do you know if there is any photo of these types in existance?

Regarding the difference from MS.405, I would also add different types of undercarriage doors.

[BS_w]

Thanks BS_w!

Any chance you could scan this in higher resolution so I could print it out for my reference?

Regarding MS.406, there were allegedly other subtypes of which I couldn't find any photo: MS.407LP, MS.411, MS.412.

Do you know if there is any photo of these types in existance?

Regarding the difference from MS.405, I would also add different types of undercarriage doors.

Sorry, but I cannot disclose any information about the MS plans.

It is by this condition that I can obtain more infos in the future.

there is one pic of MS 407LP in the Lela press book.

It have a fuel filler cap on the top of cowling and 1 other on the right.

One MS406 was modified to carry two bombs under each wing

You're right, i forgot for the undercarriage fairings in two piece on the 405.

In the Lela Press book about MS 406, the drawing of MS 407 shows undercarriage fairings type 405, but on the photography we can seen clearly that is 406 type.

I hope make resin noses for correct the models at 1/48 and 1/32 scale.

Edited October 26, 2014 by BS_w