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Humbrol new Luftwaffe paint range gappy and without rlm numbers


Merlin

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Hi.

Take a trip to the local model shop, if yours still exists, mine does, and go to the display stand for Humbrol, then try finding the Luftwaffe range.

Tinlets are not marked in RLM numbers. Nothing is written indicating the RLM numbers.

Why bring out a range and hide the fact that it exists ?

RLM65 is the paint you need for the light blue from prewar through the Battle of Britain and beyond , being superceded by RLM76 in late 1940.

Its not even in the new range. One might see a pot of 65 but is that rlm65 ?

Whilst the new colours have numbers that dont relate to rlm, e.g 241 is RLM70, one can at least have faith in the fact that someone referred to a Luftwaffe chart when making them., or so we hope.

But what of 65. Did someone paint it out and say hey guys it matches, we dont need to make it then. Was it matched carefully many years ago to 65 for some reason ?

It appears not,...as Mike Starmer in another post about rlm 73 72 and 65 says

Humbrol 65 is far too light and turquoise for RLM 65. Checking now against the Kiroff paint colour samples in Merrick and Ullmans books you could just use Humbrol 75 for RLM 73, RLM 72 is much darker. I suggest equal parts H33 and H163 for this. RLM 65 can be made closely by 5 x H87 + 23 x H65 although I will try again using H89 in the tests.

As such , and my doubts of H65 being too greeny are supported here, Humbrol dont have a Luftwaffe colour set for the first part of WW2, that includes the Battle of Britain, a significant and highly popular period. 70 71 02 but no 65 !

So then what of RLM66 for the bomber cockpits, is tinlet 66 ok as the new range doesnt have 66 . Internet suggests 67 and another site 32.

Humbrol should at least have a chart dangling on a string indicating what to buy for what.

Poor publicity and important colours missing. Googling Humbrol enamel Luftwaffe colours doesnt see anything immediate.

Why Humbrol make it a treasure hunt ? Please complete the gaps.

Merlin

Edited by Merlin
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Hi, Oh dear, looks like they are not worth buying, more like coloured sticky dishwater. page 5 of the thread sees the first modeller with a better tinlet of 02. No explanation offered by Humbrol on the issues which are affecting UK and now USA.

RLM70 is described as useless, forget it for colour accuracy..

six match, 4 are close, and one is ok if an emergency.

Its clear we need them to do RLM65.

The whole thing seems half baked, and just looking at the painted out samples in that thread, strewth !

No one at Humbrol has bothered to analyse these, research them, test them and ensure we have a decent complete set of the common rlm colours that can be brush painted.

Airbrushing is not acceptable as a justification of paints being ok if they dont brush paint, there are times one needs to also brush paint as well.

Furthermore paints should be for brushing , they can then be airbrushed, you cant brush paint thinned paint, also you are paying for thinners, only getting 50% of what you should get for your money, but it is obvious from the descriptions given that there is something chemically wrong here.

No one will explain why paints from the 1970s were so much better, there is a reason, but manufacturers wont reveal it. They have the formulation from back then, and could tell us why they are now like coloured varnish.

They are also described as matt finish, Luftwaffe colours should be satin.

Bring back the Humbrol authentics staff, staff that realise that there are modellers and not just kids buying their products. Kids wont manage these colours anyway.

This does nothing to keep the hobby going.

Its bad enough not having the RLM colours listed for them.

I am lost for words. No decent rlm 65 or 70 and what there is has atrocious brushing quality, will Humbrol resolve the issues ?

Merlin

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If you are so unhappy with Humbrol's efforts, switch to Xtracolor/xtracylic or one of the numerous other makers of paints. One of the other ranges might meet your needs.

Black Knight

I hear what you say and it's a valid point.....

.....but from my point of view Humbrol has been a brand that I grew up with a long time ago and could always trust, always reliable.

I guess 21st Century health and safety scaremongering combined with EU craziness has overtaken them, their paints now are poor, unreliable, thin, and inconsistent.

This despite returning production from China (boy were those paints terrible), and promising that normal service would be resumed......

Thankfully I kept my Humbrol enamels from the eighties/nineties and returning to this hobby, with a few exceptions which had turned to cake I'm using them now as good as ever. There is no comparison and unfortunately I'm running out......

Shame really isn't it?

TonyS

Edited by dhdove
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I guess 21st Century health and safety scaremongering combined with EU craziness has overtaken them

Yes, of course, that's it - and the evil secret bit in it all is that it only applies to Humbrol paint.

If that were true, wouldn't all paint be affected the same way?

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Yes, of course, that's it - and the evil secret bit in it all is that it only applies to Humbrol paint.

If that were true, wouldn't all paint be affected the same way?

I'm sorry, I'm a bit out of my depth here, I'm not a modelling paint expert.

But in the 1:1 scale world, celly was nice, two pac even better, lustrous, hard wearing and resistant to damage.

The EU has banned both of them and we now have water based car paints that chip if you look at them.

I think something similar is going on with model paints produced within the EU, no doubt someone knows better than me.

TonyS

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But Humbrol isn't the only paint produced in the EU. At the very least, Xtracolor and White Ensign enamels are produced here too. If there's a problem with Humbrol it's much more likely to be down to quality control in their Indian operation (extensively covered elsewhere) than it is to anything external.

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But Humbrol isn't the only paint produced in the EU. At the very least, Xtracolor and White Ensign enamels are produced here too. If there's a problem with Humbrol it's much more likely to be down to quality control in their Indian operation (extensively covered elsewhere) than it is to anything external.

Hi Pigsty

All noted and you're right, but I thought Humbrol returned paint production to the UK some time ago due to quality control problems? In fact received wisdom is that the Chinese/Indian? paints were nearly unusable, so production returned to the UK? Thay even put a nice Union Flag on the tins so you could tell the difference :-)

I guess what I am saying is that contemporary Humbrol enamels are a shadow of their former selves......

....maybe I'm just too old....

TonyS

Edited by dhdove
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Suggestion to go to another brand is not an option for me, I far prefer Enamels, that is I far prefer the enamels I grew up with and still have stocks of.

I havent found another brand I can 100% move over to.

Humbrol was the choice for self levelling , curing correctly, decent uniform matt finish, and brushing out idiot proof. To have to say goodbye feels like mutiny.

Humbrol was the paint that worked. Then one day something changed along with the pot artwork. I recall giving a friend gloss red and green to paint something with, his words, what the hell have they done to this paint, it was never like this, it tugged at the brush, was translucent, .

I was told the EEC had introduced rules and the ingredients that had made the paint work could no longer be used. Lead was mentioned.

Of more recent paint alternatives, I then tried Xtracolor, sprayed out a test onto plastic card of each tinlet along with old Humbrol, the Xtracolor was tacky a few days after spraying whilst Humbrol was perfect. A friend also found his Xtracolor remained tacky. I stored them in plastic sleeves many weeks later, then came to remove the Xtracolor and it had stuck to the sleeve, Humbrol had cured and no problems. Not impressed with Xtracolor ability to cure.

I now see I am not alone in this http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966001-xtracolour-seems-not-to-dry-what-did-i-wrong/

Tried White Ensign, brush painted it, it was like tacky coloured varnish. Next day or so later items would still stay attached to the finger for half a second whilst holding them for the second coat it demanded as one coat did not give uniform coverage. Useless. Having to paint twice fiddly areas when managing to get the paint where I wanted it just right the first time, second time it then lifts my first coat as it had to be painted carefully and any slow use of brush dissolved the first coat. A paint where any slow use of brush allowed the paint to dissolve itself.

Phoenix Precision paint was next, they do RAF and Luftwaffe ranges, and aim to recreate old humbrol. Its very good and Chris will listen to criticism and ideas but has a slight leaning towards the flaws of White Ensign but currently gets my vote though the one stroke coverage of old Humbrol was sheer joy.

In the past I had also used Precision paints and Compucolor and Gloy. I recall Gloy being sticky and tugging, and PP not giving one coat coverage and again a bit tuggy.

DBI I tried and that was excellent. Damn shame they folded.

Acrylics I cannot airbrush without need for debunging the airbrush after minutes. I can't spray fine mottle with the stuff. Brush painting it onto bare plastic, it wont take to it like enamel. After all what does one expect with water in the formula. This is not a total rule, some will brush paint but its funny stuff, you have to work it , help it blend together, it again goes on streaky. I hate the fact that it dries too quick on brush tip for any delicate work, and adding in retarders and flow enhancers sees it not dry out and feel cured.

Gunze Sanyo....not very good for brush painting.

Someone created a chart of what paints brush out well and hardly any did, Humbrol was the winner, but if we now have them wrecking that function of their paints....

What I see of the images of the attempts to paint out Humbrol Luft,...sheeesh !, how a company could release that is appalling, it has to be a batch issue. We never ever had that happen 30 yrs ago from them. Where was their quality control section when that happened ? Trouble is unless they recall that batch we end up buying it, then trying to return it, or they just send out new tinlets which is fairer but having to mess around contacting them, sitting down to model with it and finding its useless.

Humbrol was the dependable paint for brush painting, to see our own brand faltering when it used to work, is like seeing ManUtd or Arsenal etc in the 4th division ! There are modellers out there that havent experenced decent model paints like Humbrol authentic. Paints that go on like a dream.

Merlin

Edited by Merlin
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Lead hasn't been used in paint since the early 1970s.

Model Master do RLM colours in enamel. I've had no bother with them. Bought them from an England based model shop - forget which.

Why stick to Humbrol and moan about them? Write to them and tell what you think. Use the paints which give you the finish that suits you best irrespective of make. Thats what I do and I'd say 99.9% of others on here do. I have about a dozen different makes of paint in my drawers units, each make has its good and bad points, but all do of them what I want.

I grew up using Airfix paints in the glass bottles, then Humbrol and Matchbox [re-labelled Revell]. Things change.

Humbrol is still working through their inventory, not all paints have been corrected yet even though production was brought back to the UK just about this time last year. In Utopia Hornby would have recalled every tin of paint then sent out perfect new tins. Until then send Hornby your bad tins and ask for your money back.

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Hello Black Knight,

<<Lead hasn't been used in paint since the early 1970s.>>

Oddly enough the paints I have that worked for me date to the late 1960's. Trouble is they have mostly oxidised by now or I have used them up.

So let us drop Humbrol as their brushability has gone, time to support a different team as you say.

What enamels instead would modellers here recommend from what they are using that brushes out , self blending, one coat coverage ? Non streaky even finish. Looking like it was airbrushed (for that is what Humbrol gave us many years ago)

The study done that I saw had Humbrol as the only decent brushable paint, so what can be used with ease and success instead of it ?

I will go to whatever works and has a decent colour range with also RAF and Luft colours (no gaps). Its the year 2014 and surely by now paint exists that can match how it used to be. If not why not.

Merlin

Edited by Merlin
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Yep, everything was better in the 1960s, when they put lead in paint and you could expect to live to the ripe old age of 65 if you were lucky :rolleyes:

Times change. Some things get worse, but many more get better. Look at the vast range of kits, accessories and tools you now have to choose from. If you can't find something out there to satisfy you, I'd be very surprised.

I use Gunze or Tamiya, thinned with cellulose and airbrushed. No problems at all. WEM paint will also airbrush well when thinned with cellulose. Maybe using a traditional brush is the problem when it comes to modern paint formulations?

If I were Humbrol, I'd give serious thought to having Gunze make up the paint and then sell it under a 'Humbrol Pro' range or something similar.

Just my 2p worth of course :)

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Thought I'd chip in with a few thoughts of my own.

I don't have an airbrush, nor do I feel any real need for one so it's the hairy stick for me!

My prefered brand for paint brushes is the Daler Rowney Dalon D77 range:

http://www.daler-rowney.com/content/dalon-watercolour-brushes

A bit expensive but they're far better than the crud ones Humbrol currently have in their range. Although they're supposed to be for water colours and acrylics I routinely use them to brush paint enemels. I just clean them with white spirit and give them a good wash afterwards. In my experience as long as you take care of them they last almost a year before losing their points.

Now, onto the paints themselves.

Humbrol - Normally needs at least three coats for good coverage as it goes on thin. Some of the new UK produced paints are a bit thick in the tin, but the coverage doesn't seem to be any different.

Xtracolor - I'm not a massive fan of gloss paints, but they work well enough as long as you have an undercoat of a similar colour underneath as some colours cover better than others. I've had no problems with the few matt colours in the range.

Revell - Don't like these. Too thick and gunk the brush up far too quickly.

White Ensign - Like Humbrol, need at least three coats for good coverage and like Xtracolor I'd recommend having an undercoat first. Some colours gunk the brush pretty quickly (RN White, Russian Northern Fleet Grey), others don't (RN AP507A, AP507C, Corticene, Russian Navy Deck Red). Likewise some colours cover more smoothly than others.

Mike.

Edited by MikeR
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