All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[rob Lyttle]

Hi Troy, all points taken on board. Thanks for appraisal and offer - let's see what I can get hold of Wednesday evening club.

Finish on ply is paint to match fabric, think the photo caught the light a bit. The more I look at photos, the more issues I see!

Access panel to rear fuselage under tailplane on port side - looks like it could be polished up metal ?

[StevSmar]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

the 3 underside lights came up at some point IIRC.

the coloured lens can be seen in the pic of the Science Musuem Hurricane above, 

but note, the wing tip lights are coloured bulbs behind clear covers.

It's unusual though, primarily there's one light  with two flare chutes. IIRC there was a nice picture in the "Hurricane Explored" CD.

 

if I didn't have a clear photo, I would put the one light and two flare chutes.

 

(BTW, if you want a nice reference, have a look at the "Hurricane Explored" CD-ROM, well worth the money, http://www.flyingzonedirect.com/hurricanecdrom/hurricaneindex.htm )

[rob Lyttle]

Wasn't sure if you guys have seen this picture before, V6787

Looks like a variation on the pennant on the starboard. Something going on with the rudder too.

[Troy Smith]

Wow!

Where did you  find that?  (admittedly I've not  searched for V6787) 

The rudder looks like a patch, maybe red oxide dope (see the restoration pics) before a coat of  aluminium?

 

Anyway, a treat, and it's  always great to have a shot of both sides

cheers

T

PS

13 hours ago, rob Lyttle said:

Hi Troy, all points taken on board. Thanks for appraisal and offer - let's see what I can get hold of Wednesday evening club.

Finish on ply is paint to match fabric, think the photo caught the light a bit. The more I look at photos, the more issues I see!

Access panel to rear fuselage under tailplane on port side - looks like it could be polished up metal ?

 

 

The panel under the tail is metal, so quite possibly polished.

Photos can be  tricky,  I've become used to  seeing Hurricane models with scuffed to  metal under the cockpit... 

Photos also show up what the  eye misses,  modelling has taken on a whole new dimension with the macro lens!

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Troy Smith
add details

[rob Lyttle]

Only just clocked the fact that there's no mast or aerial wire or support atop the rudder.

So it doesn't matter that I knocked the wee rudder pin off! 

[Andre B]

If one want to build an Douglas Bader BoB Hurricane... ...what is the best kit to get today? Or is there no Hurricane of correct variant (metallving Mk. I) available for an Douglas Bader Hurricane?

Cheers / André

[Beard]

8 minutes ago, Andre B said:

If one want to build an Douglas Bader BoB Hurricane... ...what is the best kit to get today? Or is there no Hurricane of correct variant (metallving Mk. I) available for an Douglas Bader Hurricane?

Cheers / André

 

I think you'll find the answer here:

 

[Andre B]

12 minutes ago, Beard said:

 

I think you'll find the answer here:

 

 

Well I asked but no one answered...

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Andre B said:

 

Well I asked but no one answered...

 

I did answer,  last line of linked post above.

 

Quote

 

  On 2017-6-17 at 11:40, Andre B said:

What type of Hurricane Mk. I did Douglas Bader fly with during BoB? Was it an metal winged one?

 

Quote

Yes,  metal wing, Spitfire Rotol.

 

Note, you did not specify scale,   the 72nd options were specified in the  thread.

other scales

In 1/144th Sweet do a superb dual kit, 

In 1/48th either Hasegawa,  though you need to pick the boxing, or Airfix new tool (both have faults)

1/32 Fly,  if they have done the specfic boxing

1/24th Trumpeter Mk.I

 

HTH

 

[JackG]

Tried a google search of this factory photo to see if it had been discussed here already, but it did not come up:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-women-work-on-the-production-line-of-hawker-hurricane-aircraft-during-20092649.html

 

 

I find it interesting that it appears that there were two shades of finish found on the interior?

 

regards,

Jack

[mhaselden]

Note the ones in the row behind has a more consistent appearance between the firewall, the front edge of the undercarriage bay and the engine bearers...but the shades of all 3 differ.  Could be lighting for those, or different paint batches.  Not sure about the Hurri in the foreground.  Definitely looks like the firewall is aluminium while the other pieces are in something else, maybe interior green?

[Graham Boak]

The nearest young lady appears to be dressed rather smartly for the production line, and a rather natty hair style.  Could she be a secretary hauled in for the photo?  Also note what appears to be a non-standard wheel, possibly just used to move the aircraft around during assembly rather than a new flight example?

 

Is that a serial on the side of the cockpit?    KW853?  A Mk.IIc that went to Russia 6.1.43, dating the picture to November or December 1942?.   Apart from the armoured windscreen and the later tailwheel, I can't see any hints as to the date or variant.

[JackG]

Some good observations there, Graham.  About the clothes, seems the three ladies atop the aircraft are all wearing similar striped pants.

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

if it's a KW853,  and it does look like KW 

 

then it's part of this batch

Block 8, Eighth Hawker Produced Block

Serial Range KW696 - KW731 (36), KW745 - KW777 (33), KW791 - KW832 (42), KW846 - KW881 (36), KW893 - KW936 (44), KW949 - KW982 (34), KX101 - KX146 (46), KX161 - KX202 (42), KX220 - KX261 (42), KX280 - KX307 (28), KX321 - KX369 (49), KX382 - KX425 (44), KX452 - KX491 (40), KX521 - KX567 (47), KX579 - KX621 (43), KX691 - KX736 (46), KX749 - KX784 (36), KX796 - KX838 (43), KX851 - KX892 (42), KX922 - KX967 (46), KZ111 - KZ156 (46), KZ169 - KZ201 (33), KZ216 - KZ250 (35), KZ266 - KZ301 (36), KZ319 - KZ356 (38), KZ370 - KZ412 (43), KZ424 - KZ470 (47), KZ483 - KZ526 (44), KZ540 - KZ582 (43), KZ597 - KZ612 (16) Total 1,200 The eighth production batch by Hawker Aircraft Limited, at Brooklands, and Langley. To contract 62305/39/C/Va, powered by Rolls-Royce Merlin XX and 27 engines. The aircraft were delivered between the 20th November, 1942 and the 19th April, 1943. Average rate of production 7-8 aircraft per day.

 

so, same batch as KZ295

 

different tones maybe due to an earlier stage of production?

 

like this pic, which I think maybe earlier on the line,  and this is the primer stage? 

 

Hawker Hurricane repairs,c1940 by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Wonder if there are more pics from this series?

 

 

 

 

[JackG]

Found one more  likely from the b/w set, looks to be the same two woman that were on the left side of the photo I had first posted. 

 

 

Image is linked from wiki, but the same photo found on this site claiming it is for a gallery of "Hawker aircraft factory langley".

http://keywordteam.net/gallery/53417.html

 

regards,

Jack

[MilneBay]

On 7/1/2017 at 3:00 AM, Graham Boak said:

The nearest young lady appears to be dressed rather smartly for the production line, and a rather natty hair style.  Could she be a secretary hauled in for the photo?  Also note what appears to be a non-standard wheel, possibly just used to move the aircraft around during assembly rather than a new flight example?

 

Is that a serial on the side of the cockpit?    KW853?  A Mk.IIc that went to Russia 6.1.43, dating the picture to November or December 1942?.   Apart from the armoured windscreen and the later tailwheel, I can't see any hints as to the date or variant.

 

The thing that strikes me in the various pics posted in this series is the amount of paint sprayed on the tires, which you don't see on the finished aircraft. So probably just wheels fitted to enable movement during production or perhaps even to double check retraction clearances perhaps.

[Hamiltonian]

I have a question about the 12-gun wings on the IIb.

While the inboard 8 machine guns were recessed into the wing, allowing their muzzles to be protected by the customary red rectangle of doped cloth, the muzzles of the outboard pairs of guns seem to have protruded slightly. In restored aircraft, without guns, I see these outboard openings marked by a couple of red squares, but I wonder how realistic this can be.

In action, were the outboard guns protected with some sort of covering? If so, was it simply stretched over the protruding barrels?

 

I'm asking because I'm building a model of a IIb that was used in an Operational Training Unit at Ismailia. The grainy photo I have of a IIb at Ismailia seems to show the conventional covers inboard, but no hint of anything at all - either gun muzzles or contrasting cover - in the outboard position. I was wondering if the outboard guns might even have been removed before the aircraft was shipped off to the OTU.

 

My Google-fu seems to have failed me in hunting down useful images of appropriate aircraft. Any help or advice will be much appreciated.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Hamiltonian said:

I have a question about the 12-gun wings on the IIb.

While the inboard 8 machine guns were recessed into the wing, allowing their muzzles to be protected by the customary red rectangle of doped cloth, the muzzles of the outboard pairs of guns seem to have protruded slightly. In restored aircraft, without guns, I see these outboard openings marked by a couple of red squares, but I wonder how realistic this can be.

In action, were the outboard guns protected with some sort of covering? If so, was it simply stretched over the protruding barrels?

 

I'm asking because I'm building a model of a IIb that was used in an Operational Training Unit at Ismailia. The grainy photo I have of a IIb at Ismailia seems to show the conventional covers inboard, but no hint of anything at all - either gun muzzles or contrasting cover - in the outboard position. I was wondering if the outboard guns might even have been removed before the aircraft was shipped off to the OTU.

 

My Google-fu seems to have failed me in hunting down useful images of appropriate aircraft. Any help or advice will be much appreciated.

 

 

I've seen pics of this,  eg

 

the extra guns were a PITA apparently,  to removed them they have to be taken out through the leading edge!

There was something on this in a thread here once.

the weight outboard was an issue, so it's more than likely they would be removed in a trainer.

HTH

 

[Graham Boak]

Having extra weight penalises acceleration and climb, but having it so far outboard also penalises agility.

 

It's interesting  to see the double patch extended to cover the absent machine gun above the fairing for the bomb carrier.  Presumably therefore the hole remained in the wing.  This makes sense if it was at least potentially possible to remove the carriers and replace the gun, turning the aircraft into a standard fighter.

[Troy Smith]

I can't see any reason to remove the hole, this is another from the photo series above, which were of 402 sq at Warmwell in early 1942 IIRC, and it looks like a patch

 

 

again, a patch

 

 

 

[Hamiltonian]

Thanks for the replies and the photos. I think I will model the aircraft with the outboard guns removed.

[Bigdave22014]

Okay all you knowledgeable chaps, some questions about the materials used in Mk1 construction.

 

• Sources all seem to just state "fabric", but was it canvas or linen?
• For a Mk1 metal wing I assume that the fabric would have been covered by Aluminium dope?
• I understand that the metal wings were duralumin. Would any part of the wing have been ordinary aluminium? leading edge?
• And would the cockpit area and engine cowling have been ordinary aluminium?

 

Thanks for your help chaps.

 

[Troy Smith]

18 hours ago, Bigdave22014 said:

Okay all you knowledgeable chaps, some questions about the materials used in Mk1 construction.

 

• Sources all seem to just state "fabric", but was it canvas or linen?
• For a Mk1 metal wing I assume that the fabric would have been covered by Aluminium dope?
• I understand that the metal wings were duralumin. Would any part of the wing have been ordinary aluminium? leading edge?
• And would the cockpit area and engine cowling have been ordinary aluminium?

 

Thanks for your help chaps.

 

 

http://hawkerrestorations.co.uk/a-complex-structure/

 

Quote

The wooden structure is covered with traditional Irish Linen, hand-stitched and finished in nitrocellulose dope. 

 

Hawker restorations use a brick red fabric dope, and this was used originally,  as cab be seen on the inside of  the unrestored Finnish Hurricane, bleeding through the fabric.

 

Aluminum dope was applied originally for it's  UV resistance, but that may depend on the final paint coating,  and I have  not seen evidence of this on the Finnish plane (there are lots  of pics  on the net)   and given the short lives of combat types,  was dropped from use in the war (IIIRC there are threads on this) 

 

 

as  the actual metals  used 

http://www.chemistrylearner.com/duralumin.html

Quote

Duralumin is an alloy, a trade name given to the earliest types of the age hardenable aluminum alloys. It is an alloy made up of 90% aluminum,4% copper, 1% magnesium and 0.5% to 1% manganese. It is a very hard alloy. These alloys are used in places where hard alloys are required, for example in the vehicle armor that is used in the defense industry. These alloys were the first widely used deformable aluminum alloys.

Duralumin is a hard, but a lightweight alloy of aluminum. It has a typical yield strength of 450 Mpa, and there are certain other variations, that depend on the composition, type and temper.

 

I don't know  that the skinning would need to be  this, but I  doubt it's 'just alumimium'  , I  suspect  Graham Boak  would know more about aircraft metallurgy and types of metal used.

 

Note the "Cockpit area" is NOT metal, it's made  of  plywood covered with fabric,  this hows  the plywood bit only.

 

any  particular reason for  the questions? 

 

 

[Bigdave22014]

Thanks Troy, didn't realise the cockpit area wasn't actually metal. 

I fancy doing one of the Hurricanes I got recently in "naked" style showing the different materials, such as the different types of metal and the fabric finish (not sure whether to do this area doped or not). 

I'll keep looking at some of the excellent restoration sites and se what I can work out.

[JasonC]

Pure aluminium is far too soft for use in aircraft structural applications. Any aluminium you find in aircraft is most likely to be an alloy of aluminium. A notable exception is Alclad, where a very thin layer of high purity aluminium is bonded to an alloy substrate for corrosion prevention purposes.

 

J.