All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Hamiltonian]

On 7/9/2017 at 2:32 PM, Hamiltonian said:

I have a question about the 12-gun wings on the IIb.

While the inboard 8 machine guns were recessed into the wing, allowing their muzzles to be protected by the customary red rectangle of doped cloth, the muzzles of the outboard pairs of guns seem to have protruded slightly. In restored aircraft, without guns, I see these outboard openings marked by a couple of red squares, but I wonder how realistic this can be.

In action, were the outboard guns protected with some sort of covering? If so, was it simply stretched over the protruding barrels?

I thought I'd come back to say that, while looking for something else, I've found a good image of fabric stretched over the barrels of the outboard guns, on the Hannes Faure site, here (1 Sq. SAAF, North Africa 1942).

[StevSmar]

On 7/14/2017 at 8:34 AM, Troy Smith said:

..... Aluminum dope was applied originally for it's  UV resistance, but that may depend on the final paint coating,  and I have  not seen evidence of this on the Finnish plane....

3

Hi Troy,

 

This is the sequence for applying the fabric to a Hurricane as I understand it:

- Irish Linen is stretched over the structure and attached either mechanically or by applying dope. I don't know if the structure is first coated with dope where the fabric needs to be initially stuck down.

- The mechanical strips are used in some of the fuselage stringers, and all of the stabilizer and rudder ribs. I've yet to find out what the strips on the empennage were made of, but almost certainly its wood.

- Fabric tape is attached over the top of the mechanical fasteners and wherever additional reinforcement is required. This tape normally has a "pinked" edge- it's cut with pinking shears that leave little triangles.

- Red dope is used over the entire fabric structure to shrink the fabric and fill its pores, but it does not provide any UV resistance for the fabric.

- Silver dope is then used to provide UV resistance. So you'll see silver outside and the bleed-through of the red dope on the inside.

- The structure is painted. Don't know if the paint is a different type than used on the metal structures, but it likely is. Paint on fabric needs to be flexible.

 

(I've got photos of Hurricanes that generally confirm the above sequence. A similar sequence is used on modern aircraft fabric covering. Generally, a modern fabric (most commonly polyester) can be shrunk with heat from an iron or similar).

 

(The Hurricane doesn't give up its secrets easily....)

[tango98]

Here you go Steve, "Fabric covering your Hurricane 101'!

 

Process devised by Camm:

"………………………..the booms of the wing ribs were modified by the provision of a channel into which the fabric, with inner and outer reinforcing strips of Egyptian tape, was pulled down by a small-flanged Dural channel section. Set at a close pitch, the attachments were comprised of light alloy set screws inserted into self-locking clinch nuts fitted to the inner surfaces of the rib boom channels.

 

This method provided an ideal solution. The exposed channels and screw heads of each rib station being completed by the application of a doped fabric strip to provide a smooth flush covering. The remaining flying and control surfaces - ailerons, tail plane, elevators, fin and rudder - were similarly finished, but used smaller recesses and channels in the interest of weight saving. For these smaller and more lightly loaded units, pop rivets were used instead of setscrews for the final attachments. No problems were encountered with these attachment methods in service."

 

I've also got the fuselage fabric attachment and airframe doping process here somewhere..........................

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by tango98

[Kallisti]

On 05/08/2017 at 1:20 PM, Scratchbuilder said:

Ouch!  they want a birth certificate and £30 per enquiry!  I'm not that curious, I'm afraid!

 

Thanks anyway.

 

Martin

 

I did this to get my Father's war record a few years ago, very glad I did was a very interesting document. You can see the results of my researches on this thread

 

He also worked on Hurricanes (just to keep the post relevant to the thread )

 

[Scratchbuilder]

I don't blame you at all for doing that, but my Dad would not forgive me for paying money to the government he served to learn about his short service history!  He hated authority and never paid full price for anything if he could possibly help it, avoid it or do a deal.  He was, after all, born whilst Bow Bells were actually ringing!  I feel it incumbent upon me to honour his life long attitudes and the legacy of mind he left me.  Maverick could have been our middle name.

 

Martin

[SeaVenom]

Troy before I finalise things and get on with decaling my Airfix kit as a metal winged BOF p reg from 73 sqn I thought I'd go back to this photo you posted for a final check

 

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-501Sqn-SD/images/Hawker-Hurricane-RAF-501Sqn-SDbeing-refueled-by-a-bowser-at-Bethenville-France-11th-May-1940-01.jpg

 

Looks to have metal wings, looks to have a DH prop (though I'm not certain) but it also has the non pole mast which could be helpful.   Do you or anyone else know what this particular aircraft from 501 sqn this might be?   

Edited August 10, 2017 by SeaVenom

[Graham Boak]

Only one blade visible, and a bit broad to be a DH.  I think that's a 2-blader.  Sorry, I don't know which aircraft it is, but probably an N serial rather than a P..

[stevehnz]

I agree that it does look like a two bladed prop, no sign of a blade thru the truck's window where one should be if it were 3 blades, so, this would also mean fabric wings too? Did any metal winged aircraft wear 2 bladed props?

Steve.

Edited August 10, 2017 by stevehnz

[sprue]

For what its worth I think its three bladed. Looking through the cab nearside window I can just make out the lower part of the propeller hub in the spinner and above the cab roof immediately below the fuel lines the edge of another blade.

Mike

[tango98]

I tend to agree with Graham that it is either an N or P serialled aircraft and is fitted with an armoured windscreen a 'metal' wing and a three blade prop.

I have another view of this aircraft from an acute rear angle but unfortunately the angle of the photo makes it impossible to see either the serial and individual letter (bloke standing in front of tailplane effectively obscures the aircraft letter.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[SeaVenom]

Thanks guys.   Yes it's not easy to make things out and it's inconclusive so I'll probably carry on with one of the metal winged/ DH prop from this photo of 73 sqn..........

 

[SeaVenom]

Anyone else find it surprising how weathered the Hurricanes are in the photo above of 73 sqn?   I take it those P reg's haven't had the metal wings for very long yet the wings especially look as if they've been heavily chipped with the bare metal showing through quite a bit.

[Troy Smith]

13 hours ago, SeaVenom said:

Anyone else find it surprising how weathered the Hurricanes are in the photo above of 73 sqn?   I take it those P reg's haven't had the metal wings for very long yet the wings especially look as if they've been heavily chipped with the bare metal showing through quite a bit.

 

the early P**** series seem to have paint adhesion problems,  and many show quite major paint flaking on the wings. 

eg this famous 501 Sq shot

 

this shot of Sammy Allard's VY-K

 

 

 

there's a great shot of VY-R in flight showing the chipping really well..

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Troy Smith

[tango98]

On 8/9/2017 at 8:32 PM, SeaVenom said:

Troy before I finalise things and get on with decaling my Airfix kit as a metal winged BOF p reg from 73 sqn I thought I'd go back to this photo you posted for a final check

 

Not Troy but how about the following considerations?

 

P2569 ‘D’?  She has a DH prop, armoured windscreen, metal wing and what appears to be the earlier pole style of mast (not common but not unusual on some Hurricanes in the N and P serial range which was caused simply by nothing more sinister than the supply and demand process). Under surfaces were black port wing/white starboard wing with the dividing line bisecting the centre line of the centre section and radiator fairing.  ‘A’ type roundels beneath the wings. Damaged following combat with Bf 110s of the I./ZG 2 she was force-landed at Reims-Champagne on the 11^th May 1940. Deemed repairable she was later abandoned during the Allied retreat. Her pilot, Sgt. L. Pilkington is understood to have been unhurt in the incident.

‘J’ was P2575 and was F/landed by F/O Orton with combat damage on 10^th May 1940 near Complans-en-Jarnisy. Also metal winged with camouflage and markings as for ‘D’ and likewise, appears to have a pole style mast. Ultimate fate of the airframe undetermined at this time.

HTH

Cheers

Dave

[Work In Progress]

I know it's habitual to call this leading-edge erosion "chipping", but I think the word is inaccurate for the effect seen here and the use of it makes people wonder how so much damage could happen so quickly. Chipping in most people's everyday lives is what happens to the front of a BMW after 80,000 miles on a heavily-trafficked motorway, but on aeroplanes, certainly aeroplanes operated off grass in Europe, mostly it isn't chipping at all. What I mean is it's not caused by the impact of small stones on the leading edges. For an aircraft based in France it's probably mostly the effect of flying through rain That can take old-fashioned paints and dopes off a fast moving aeroplane very quickly indeed, and can turn an unsheathed wooden prop to scrap in a few minutes.

 

You do tend to get genuine chipping on prop blades, mostly the rear faces and the leading edges themselves.

[Graham Boak]

The P25xx were the first Gloster production Hurricanes, so perhaps there may have been some initial problems with paint adhesion?

[Troy Smith]

On 13/8/2017 at 16:09, Troy Smith said:

the early P**** series seem to have paint adhesion problems,  and many show quite major paint flaking on the wings. 

 

3 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

I know it's habitual to call this leading-edge erosion "chipping", but I think the word is inaccurate for the effect seen here and the use of it makes people wonder how so much damage could happen so quickly. Chipping in most people's everyday lives is what happens to the front of a BMW after 80,000 miles on a heavily-trafficked motorway, but on aeroplanes, certainly aeroplanes operated off grass in Europe, mostly it isn't chipping at all. What I mean is it's not caused by the impact of small stones on the leading edges. For an aircraft based in France it's probably mostly the effect of flying through rain That can take old-fashioned paints and dopes off a fast moving aeroplane very quickly indeed,

 

I know I used chipping later in the post, but  I did note that it was mostly paint flaking off,   and as Graham notes, seems to be confined to the first Gloster built batch.

It's good point WIP,  but I was commenting on notable examples of paint flaking off seeming to be seen in a particular production batch. "chipping" is the wrong term and I shall edit my post accordingly.

 

maybe worth noting here,   a famous pic of Gleed's LK-A, but look at the wing roundel of the camera plane, and compared the LK-A, also maybe showing the oft mentioned use of brighter colours by Gloster.

As Gleed's plane is P2798 it's also a Gloster first batch,  have the upperwing roundels been repainted?   Or has the camera plane just got very weathered roundels?

 

 

The bright pre-was Gloster story gets trotted out a lot but I've never seen much evidence.    One thing others may want too look out for would be variance between the newly applied fin flash (may 1940) with factory applied roundels.

 

 

a couple more shots of LK-A, the tonal difference between the tail, fuselage age and wing markings is of interest

 

just visible here are underwing roundels in no standard positions,  so I presume post August reintroduction of underwing roundels. Also clearly shows the red nose flash.

 

 

fresh tail flash on a Gloster first batch

 

 

factory fresh Hawker built.  

 

 

[SeaVenom]

On 8/13/2017 at 4:09 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

the early P**** series seem to have paint adhesion problems,  and many show quite major paint flaking on the wings. 

eg this famous 501 Sq shot

 

this shot of Sammy Allard's VY-K

 

 

 

there's a great shot of VY-R in flight showing the chipping really well..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great photos and I see what you mean.    Nice weathering opportunities though.......which is good.

[SeaVenom]

On 8/13/2017 at 9:44 PM, tango98 said:

Not Troy but how about the following considerations?

 

P2569 ‘D’?  She has a DH prop, armoured windscreen, metal wing and what appears to be the earlier pole style of mast (not common but not unusual on some Hurricanes in the N and P serial range which was caused simply by nothing more sinister than the supply and demand process). Under surfaces were black port wing/white starboard wing with the dividing line bisecting the centre line of the centre section and radiator fairing.  ‘A’ type roundels beneath the wings. Damaged following combat with Bf 110s of the I./ZG 2 she was force-landed at Reims-Champagne on the 11^th May 1940. Deemed repairable she was later abandoned during the Allied retreat. Her pilot, Sgt. L. Pilkington is understood to have been unhurt in the incident.

 

‘J’ was P2575 and was F/landed by F/O Orton with combat damage on 10^th May 1940 near Complans-en-Jarnisy. Also metal winged with camouflage and markings as for ‘D’ and likewise, appears to have a pole style mast. Ultimate fate of the airframe undetermined at this time.

 

HTH

Cheers

Dave

 

 

Thanks tango and interesting info.

[SeaVenom]

Another question about those 73 sqn planes in the photo above.   Does anyone know how much of the Airfix stencils I can use bearing in mind Airfix has included markings for a Mk1, 501 sqn Kenley England, 7th October 1940 and the Warbird supposedly from 605sqn Croydon Sept 1940?    I've also got Italeri's Mk1 too which also has some comprehensive stencils.   I've got some diagrams saved to My Pics but some of them are unclear.

 

Plus what colour should the main sqn code letters be (D, J, Z etc) plus the smaller code.  The smaller code looks the usual black letters and numbers to me.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by SeaVenom

[SeaVenom]

These planes from 56sqn look to me like they have DH props but am I correct in thinking that USH and USE look as if they might have fabric wings but USG (I think USC is behind it) could have metal wings?   I think this was taken in 1939.

 

http://imgur.com/RSYrX0m

 

[Max Headroom]

Ok this is a bit odd. One of my favourite websites is Urban Ghosts. They regularly have articles on aviation. This article has a piece on Operation Habakkuk.

 

https://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2017/08/project-habakkuk-ice-aircraft-carriers/

 

If this link works properly there is a picture of a Sea Hurricane taking off from a carrier but with its starboard gun hatches uncovered!

 

Comments???

 

Trevor

 

[Dave Swindell]

2 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

If this link works properly there is a picture of a Sea Hurricane taking off from a carrier but with its starboard gun hatches uncovered!

 

Comments???

I'd say different colour - possibly primer or fresh paint.

[mhaselden]

Concur.  With most of the wing's lift being generated from the thicker section of the wing, trying to take off without the gun bay covers would be a non-starter.

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

there is a picture of a Sea Hurricane taking off from a carrier but with its starboard gun hatches uncovered!

 

 

 replacement panels 

 

what from is the question, as they look very dark, and is that a circled P ?