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All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here


Sean_M

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I reckon that serial is P3025, P partly obscured by code letter.  Air Britain says P3025 served with 17, 56 and 111 sqs before being damaged by a Bf 109 and abandoned, Newchurch, Kent, 7/9/40.  The 17 Sq bit fits and the Air Britain date is reconcilable with the caption date of the crash as 3/9/40 (bureaucratic backlog).  However nothing else does: details of the Luftwaffe victor, the reported service with 56 and 111 Sq and the statement that the aircraft was abandoned rather than crashlanded.  P3025 is a gap in Francis Mason's Hurricane serial list.

Edited by Seahawk
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11 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

AFAIK, it was all or nothing,  the outers may have jammed, or, it could be blocked with debris from the belly landing, a closer look at the D/L pic,(stuck it into paint and enlarged it) I think it's the two middle guns, look like there are still patches on 1 and 4.

cheers

T

But is it normal that the hole patch gets ripped off when the guns are fired or is there normally just a hole in the patch?

 

Cheers, Peter

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39 minutes ago, Basilisk said:

But is it normal that the hole patch gets ripped off when the guns are fired or is there normally just a hole in the patch?

 

Cheers, Peter

good question.

I don't know,  probably depends on what the patch was stuck on with and what it's made of.  

There have been discussions, and from photos it seems pre war/phoney war that patches were done very neatly, and painted to blend in, the RAF was noted for not doing enough gunnery practice.

eg

Hurricane_DH_Spinner_comparison.png

 

IIRC Edgar said that medical sticking plaster was used,  the usually accepted method is scrap fabric doped on.  

as for being shot away, this is what come too mind.

Hawker-Hurricane-RAF-501Sqn-SDbeing-refu

 

the crashed YB-C, well, assuming that a couple of guns jammed,  the other either got blown off, or were then ripped off by the slip stream, or came off in the belly landing.

they are normally shown as red, I'd guess because of the use of red oxide dope (see photos of the inside of Hurricane fabric, or Hawker restorations initial coating) but other colours have been used.

eg

roundel blue

4674411354_639b017b2f_o.jpgSpitfire boneyard. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

though this might signify unloaded guns and sealed up to prevent ingress of dirt (note cannon has blue tip)

 

this shot is much later, but note the 0.303 port is covered with a pale patch, maybe yellow or sky?

Hurricane-MkIId-RAF-164Sqn-FJM-KX413-and

 

Just noticed the inside of the gear doors look MSG in this shot as well, compare to outside and the wheel hub. 

Also of note are the reversed upper colours of 'G' behind

 

cheers

T

 

 

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Thanks Troy for the selection of pictures. I guess there are many possibilities why the patches are gone. It is indeed fascinating all the detail a picture can contains and sometimes is only seen after looking it again and again...

 

Cheers, Peter

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19 hours ago, Basilisk said:

But is it normal that the hole patch gets ripped off when the guns are fired or is there normally just a hole in the patch?

 

Cheers, Peter

 

The patches over the gun ports were used to keep dirt out of the ports and gun barrels, and to help keep the guns warm and prevent them freezing by stopping cold air whistling down the port and out the ejection chute. They also served as an indication to armourers that the guns had been fired. The patch therefore sealed the gun port, and the first bullet fired would punch through the patch. The photo on the previous page shows the outboard and inboard guns of the group of 4 on the port wing have for some reason not fired, whilst the two in the middle and all 4 on the starboard wing have fired. All 8 should have operated together, so there's been some sort of problem with the 2 guns that didn't fire.

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8 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

 

... the first bullet fired would punch through the patch.

 

That is exactly my point Dave. On the picture the whole patch is missing - no holes!

6c352a0d7cb19efb85076e3928464113.jpg

 

But Troy already came up with some possible reasoning why this happened.

 

Cheers, Peter

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3 hours ago, Basilisk said:

That is exactly my point Dave. On the picture the whole patch is missing - no holes!

Ahh, I see what you're getting at now.

 

3 hours ago, Basilisk said:

But Troy already came up with some possible reasoning why this happened

Yes' I'd agree with most of what Troy said. Rather depends on how well they were stuck on in the first place (a used patch would generally have to be removed before a new one was fitted).

Blown off by the blast from the guns  - possible.

Ripped off by the slipstream after bullets had punched through - highly likely.

Came off in the belly landing - unlikely I think in this case, this looks like a very good controlled belly landing with minimal damage to the airframe, the badly worn paintwork appears to predate it's arrival in the field.

Looking at the port outboard gun that has fired, there appears to still be a portion of the patch still attached in the lower outboard corner?

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  • 3 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Torgeir Eikeland said:

FullSizeRender%204_zps45ggnzyl.jpg

 

Hello

This profile is among the decal options in Fly's Sea Hurricane IIC in 1/32. I have yet to see a photo of this scheme. Have you? And besides: shouldn't there be D-day stripes on the wings as well?

 

Torgeir

Hi Torgier

 

Fly aren't very  good on their decal options,  their IIC trop has badly researched options (ones without photos, based on old profiles)

Basically, the paint guide above is wrong....

 

The 835 planes on HMS Nairana should have an anti glare panel for starters...

1137210431_284a4d0102.jpg

 

underwing  stripes, yes, at one point.  

all based on this

1137210149_0c4561a18b.jpg

 

note wing is mostly sky, with white wrapped around leading edges.

 

I think  I have  seen a shot showing the rear fuselage stripes somewhere....   see Swordfish image  below

 

see also for more discussion.

google image of  "sea hurricane 835 squadron hms nairana"

 

turns up images visible, of 7-T crashed, but on a members only forum "Reuniepagina Koninklijke Marine"

 

the wiki page on HMS Nairana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Nairana_(D05)

 

has this, 

Three_rocket_projectile_Fairey_Swordfish

 

And the Hurricanes got the white paint due to it's use on the Swordfish,which may explain the rear placement of the D-Day stripes, 

 

Not many Hurricanes got D-Day stripes....

Co-6KxMVUAA5zBe.jpg

 

 

 

Mail_being_loaded_into_a_Hurricane_Mk_II

 

"Mail being loaded into a Hurricane Mk IIC of No 1697 Air Despatch Letter Service Flight at B2 Bazenville Normandy"

 

HTH

T

 

PS this thread

 

has a load of Sea Hurricane IIc pics, apart from the white ones...

 

Edited by Troy Smith
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23 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

The 835 planes on HMS Nairana should have an anti glare panel for starters...

1137210431_284a4d0102.jpg

 

IIRC, the remnants of the EDSG/DSG upper surface camouflage acting as an anti-glare panel. Don't paint it black...

 

Claudio

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, Hurricane gang, glad I found you. I haven't had time to get through the 27 pages on here, so my query may already have been answered, but.......

I'm doing a mk1 in 1/48 by hasegawa, and want to do a decent job on it. But I don't enjoy camo schemes etc, I love natural metal finish.

Apart from the prototype with the two-bladed prop, did any early planes fly with a buffed up metalwork and silver paint on fabric.?

I'd love the chance to shine up some foil on the front of this lil machine.

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7 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

Hi, Hurricane gang, glad I found you. I haven't had time to get through the 27 pages on here, so my query may already have been answered, but.......

I'm doing a mk1 in 1/48 by hasegawa, and want to do a decent job on it. But I don't enjoy camo schemes etc, I love natural metal finish.

Apart from the prototype with the two-bladed prop, did any early planes fly with a buffed up metalwork and silver paint on fabric.?

I'd love the chance to shine up some foil on the front of this lil machine.

 

Welcome aboard Rob.  Take a look on p.25 of this thread.  Magpie22 had some interesting pics of  V7476 of the Central Flying School at RAAF Point Cook, Australia.  Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?

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Google G-AFKX for pictures.  Originally L1606, it had fabric wings and was used for propeller trials from 1938.

 

Silver doped fabric and polished metal bits.

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Thanks for that. Interesting photos - I'll have a browse around the Aussie site.

I've already ditched the big tropical filter in favour of the classic nose. It's just so ugly! Could possibly retro fit it, but I'd rather not have it on.

I was thinking more, parked up beside a Hart or Demon late 30s, before it all hit the fan.

But there's a LOT of info and insight on here!

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1 hour ago, rob Lyttle said:

Hi, Hurricane gang, glad I found you. I haven't had time to get through the 27 pages on here, so my query may already have been answered, but.......

I'm doing a mk1 in 1/48 by hasegawa, and want to do a decent job on it. But I don't enjoy camo schemes etc, I love natural metal finish.

Apart from the prototype with the two-bladed prop, did any early planes fly with a buffed up metalwork and silver paint on fabric.?

I'd love the chance to shine up some foil on the front of this lil machine.

Not early, no, apart from GAFKX, 

the only one I  know of.... buffed metal, aluminum doped fabric.....

Quote

hawker_hurricane_fighter_rhodesia_01_V67

The bare metal side panel as opposed to Aluminum dope overall are a neat touch, glossy red spinner and nose?

IIRC that's a Sq/Ldr pennant.

Spinner looks to be the Bullet Rotol with and oil ring.

 

Quote

That pennant looks more like a Group Captains pennant. The Sqn Ldr`s pennant was rectangular and although the Wing Commander`s pennant was triangular it had two thin red stripes whereas the Gp Capt pennant was similar but with a single thick red stripe.

Note that this Hurri has a Vokes filter fitted and what looks to be an early Rotol propeller.

Cheers

Tony

from this thread

HTH

T

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25 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

^^^^ There is also AG244.

 

Here is link to a warbird painted up in the scheme.

 

http://www.easyballoons.co.uk/2014/06/03/phils-hurricane-nearly-there/

 

The original ended up in a bonfire at war's end 😖

 

Trevor

 

IIRC AG244, like the the other RATG Hurricanes (Rhodesian Air Training Group, see link above)  is overall Aluminium dope.

as seen here

RATGHurricane_zpsbbad4122.jpg

 

fabric and metal are  same  tone.   I believe the paint job was to keep the planes a bit cooler.    

V6787 above was the 'Admiral's Barge'  so it got stripped and polished,   but stock trainers just got a coat of aluminuim overall.

also note the gun camera on T9531, the bulge just above the ventral radiator.

 

Edited by Troy Smith
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1 hour ago, RJP said:

Google G-AFKX for pictures.  Originally L1606, it had fabric wings and was used for propeller trials from 1938.

 

Silver doped fabric and polished metal bits.

 

If you follow this route, note that G-AFKX had a different nose.  Probably just the nose ring ahead of the exhausts, but it didn't taper to the same extent as the production aircraft and ended with the same diameter as the Rotol spinner, so that there was no step behind it as seen on V6787 above.  Also, the first prototype had a different cowling shape, slightly higher and less wide at the top,  because the design of the Merlin cylinder head changed for production.

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OK thanks all for the info, this is great!

So, early means fabric wings, right?   That's not going to be an option for me this time around, anyway.

Aussie, Canadian, Rhodesian, S.African seems to be the area.

What about the metal wings? Were they nmf polished up too? So many photos are side profile.

I'm trying to make an effort with the flaps too, although they don't seem to be left open very much, or dropping, like some types when parked.

Love the photo archive material you guys are accessing!

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8 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

OK thanks all for the info, this is great!

So, early means fabric wings, right?   That's not going to be an option for me this time around, anyway.

Aussie, Canadian, Rhodesian, S.African seems to be the area.

What about the metal wings? Were they nmf polished up too? So many photos are side profile.

I'm trying to make an effort with the flaps too, although they don't seem to be left open very much, or dropping, like some types when parked.

Love the photo archive material you guys are accessing!

G-AFKX  was probably fabric,   only 600 fabric wing were built,  out of over 14,000...

 

ONLY V6787 is polished metal,  the others are overall aluminum paint.   Note that the area under/around the cockpit is fabric  covered plywood not metal

hawker_hurricane_fighter_rhodesia_01_V67

note the spinners looks to be gloss red (?)  compare to  the red in roundels,  and he anti glare is most lilkely black, but could be roundel blue, given the attention paid to the rest of the airframe.

 

Flaps. dropped on ground, no, except for servicing.

Hurricane (and Spitfire) pilots got fined around of drinks for forgetting to raise their flaps!!!,  they did not droop like say Mustangs (hydraulic bleed off) 

Showing them dropped is OK say with a mechanic looking at them, but I can think of very few photos of them on the ground with dropped flaps ...

 

cheers

T

 

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OK.

Been loitering on Aussie sites, and looking at V7476, done in silver in1945ish?

I do have some Pacific type markings.

Some models are done with shiny metal sections

paulwoodyvanacker-170205-5896da5e83770

 

A48060-02_V

Any comments would be more than welcome. Do you think they just painted her, or could this be a possible?

This would be the one on p25 I guess, apparently the RAAF only had one Hurricane!

Edited by rob Lyttle
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Painted aluminium 

the metal part and the fabric  parts can look different even when painted in the same paint, and this is very weathered.

Hawker-Hurricane-MkI-RAF-V7476-1945-01.j

 

the model you posted an image is an example of very poor research, as the base kit is Mk.IIc,  and they have painted the fabric covered plywood dog house as metal....

HTH

T

 

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I have the rather nice 1/48 Airfix Hurricane in the final stages. It's going to be Finnished (lol) as a Finnish example.

 

944D82C3-981D-4F90-AF27-236B4A23C672_zps

 

Undersides are Night/White/Silver . (Ignore the disparity on the Dark Green on the wing - I have a plan.......)

 

Now then, does it have the painting stencil marks as per RAF (i.e. The W/T) applied as they were overhauled in the U.K. before delivery?

 

This pic is inconclusive (as are others)....

 

89ed05736bde1ebcfc40b4858d11d158.jpg

 

Also, the Night/White the demarcation went through the ventral radiator. Did anyone go to the bother of masking the inside of the radiator?

 

Trevor

 

 

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If it was delivered as a new aircraft then it would.  If it had been overhauled then it (probably) wouldn't.  Mason states that they were taken from 19 and 20 MUs, which doesn't help a lot, but states that at least one was an Lxxxx serial, which is unlikely to have been new.  I presume that the other serials have been published somewhere, but don't know where.

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