FAA Corsair II TRH

[Plumbum]

Hello---while looking for information I ran across a profile picture of an

FAA Corsair II from 1834 Squadron , JT427 with the letters TRH on the

fuselage rear sides. I am curious as to the color of this aircraft, it looks

to be blue gray upper over insignia white? I beleive it was flown by one

Lt Col. Ronnie Hay, and also I have read it was equipped with camera ports.

I have an FAA Corsair II to make and this looks like an excellent scheme to do.

Thanks---John

[Test Graham]

JT427 was in Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey over Sky. On some combinations of film and filter the upper colours do appear very similar in b&w.

Blue Grey over a light grey (I forget which) was used on some early US Corsairs, but not on FAA ones. Insignia White undersides were seen on the following "3-blues scheme" which was not also not seen on FAA Corsairs. Some late FAA corsairs, particularly Goodyear-built FG-1s, did appear in the overall Sea Blue Gloss scheme.

[Steven Eisenman]

JT427 was in Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey over Sky. On some combinations of film and filter the upper colours do appear very similar in b&w.

Blue Grey over a light grey (I forget which) was used on some early US Corsairs, but not on FAA ones. Insignia White undersides were seen on the following "3-blues scheme" which was not also not seen on FAA Corsairs. Some late FAA corsairs, particularly Goodyear-built FG-1s, did appear in the overall Sea Blue Gloss scheme.

Excuse me, but some Brewster built Corsair IIIs were delivered to the FAA in the USN blue/blue/white scheme. Not sure I've seen any in front line service, but then again few Corsair IIIS made it to front line.

As for JT427, a Vought built Corsair II, unless repainted, would be in ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Gray and a debatable underside color of either ANA Ana 602 Light Gray or 610 Sky.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Steven Eisenman

[Paul J]

Also, don't use the T of the code letters!! I believe the markings have been confused with 'T8H' another FAA Corsair which was flown by a Canadian pilot!

Ronnie Hay was possibly the only FAA (Royal Marine) pilot to have personalised codes RH on his aeroplane.

And go along with the two tone greys and light grey/sky underside suggestion as Steven has suggested!

[Test Graham]

That the FAAM's Corsair turned out to have EDSG/DSG parts underneath its top coat of blue rather confounds the "all in US substitute colours" argument.

I rather suspect that all the Mk.IIIs will have been repainted before service. As for the Mk.IIs, that's less likely. However, in a postwar photo of Corsairs ready to be dumped, the first three noses all have very different tones to the camouflage... differential fading or different colours?

[Steven Eisenman]

That the FAAM's Corsair turned out to have EDSG/DSG parts underneath its top coat of blue rather confounds the "all in US substitute colours" argument.

I rather suspect that all the Mk.IIIs will have been repainted before service. As for the Mk.IIs, that's less likely. However, in a postwar photo of Corsairs ready to be dumped, the first three noses all have very different tones to the camouflage... differential fading or different colours?

EDSG/DSG or a very close match? Was there analysis if the paint was of US or British manufacture? The FAAM Goodyear Corsair IV may have had parts (and seems most likely did) that were leftovers from Berwster Corsair IIIs. The Corsair III was a Brewster product, and Brewster may have used the Equivalents, not Substitutes, as did Grumman.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Steven Eisenman

[Guest]

It is up to you what colors you wish to use, the ANA vs FS color controversy can be confusing at times, the whole Lend-Lease color situation is complicated because, with the exception of Grumman, each company painted their Lend-Lease aircraft in what they thought was close to what the Ministry of Aircraft Production required. Bottom line is do not get too caught up in the color confusion, it is labyrinthine at best. Steven is right about the colors, but the color of the undersides is very difficult to nail down. It certainly is not Sky type S. Some use light gull grey with a tad bit of green, others try to custom mix the color. You can find color chips on the net but then again those can be inaccurate. My advice is to not get too caught up in total accuracy, it will drive you batty. If you Google FAA Corsairs you will find great looking model builds that can help you with the colors you will need. I just went with the prevailing wisdom from guys like Nick Millman and others, then gave it my best shot and trusted the rest to luck. I am perfectly happy with my build, and until someone from Vought or a ground crewmen comes back from the grave to tell me I've got it wrong I'm sticking to what I got.

Cheers

Edited May 29, 2014 by Spitfire addict

[Plumbum]

Looks like my mistake, the profile picture I saw looked gray blue but when I looked closer I could

see it was two different upper colors over a light color. Guess it would look to be more like the

color in this picture even though they are not clipped wing Corsairs. Thanks---John

BTW do the gear legs and wheel rims look to be underside color? Looks it to me.

[Bruce Archer]

Hi All!

I have spent a lot of time researching the Corsair in the FAA, and have looked at a lot of images. Here is what I have found:

Corsair I-a Vought Built F4U-1 equivalent. Delivered to the FAA in Olive Drab and Sea Grey (US) uppers with USN Non-specular Light Grey lower surfaces. Wheel wells painted in the undersurface color.

Corsair II- Vought built F4U-1a or F4U-1D (need serial to tell). Delivered to the FAA as above, but with DuPont Sky Grey replacing the USN grey at some point in production ( serial ukn).

Corsair III-Brewster built F3A-1 (F4U-1A equivalent). No -1D aircraft produced by Brewster. First batch from USN stocks and delivered in USN Tri-color scheme. Next batch in US Equivalents and it appears that later batches used MAP shades. Unfortunately all of the production records have been lost (tossed when the USN closed the plant). Wheel wells in the undersurface color.

Corsair IV- Goodyear built FG-1 and FG-1D (F4U-1A and F4U-1D equivalents) need serial to tell which is which. ALL delivered to the FAA in Glossy Sea Blue. Wheel wells in Glossy Sea Blue.

I hope this helps!

Bruce

Edited May 29, 2014 by Bruce Archer

[Plumbum]

Thanks all for the help, Bruce would the DuPont Sky Grey been just another version of a

light grey or would it have had that slight greenish tint as RAF WW II Sky?---John

[Steven Eisenman]

Thanks all for the help, Bruce would the DuPont Sky Grey been just another version of a

light grey or would it have had that slight greenish tint as RAF WW II Sky?---John

The question is weather Vought used du pont or the ANA 610 Sky. Since both were available, why would vought mix ANA and du pont. Then again there were dozens of other paint makers. So trying to pin it down is very difficult.

DuPont Sky Type S Grey is grayer than RAF Sky. for modelinging I take Tamiya Sky Gray and add a touch of Sky.

Here is one person's rep.

http://www.ipmscanada.com/ipms/Reference_%20Article/Aircraft/Aircraft_Image/P40_6.jpg

Edited May 29, 2014 by Steven Eisenman

[Guest]

Hi All!

I have spent a lot of time researching the Corsair in the FAA, and have looked at a lot of images. Here is what I have found:

Corsair I-a Vought Built F4U-1 equivalent. Delivered to the FAA in Olive Drab and Sea Grey (US) uppers with USN Non-specular Light Grey lower surfaces. Wheel wells painted in the undersurface color.

Corsair II- Vought built F4U-1a or F4U-1D (need serial to tell). Delivered to the FAA as above, but with DuPont Sky Grey replacing the USN grey at some point in production ( serial ukn).

Corsair III-Brewster built F3A-1 (F4U-1A equivalent). No -1D aircraft produced by Brewster. First batch from USN stocks and delivered in USN Tri-color scheme. Next batch in US Equivalents and it appears that later batches used MAP shades. Unfortunately all of the production records have been lost (tossed when the USN closed the plant). Wheel wells in the undersurface color.

Corsair IV- Goodyear built FG-1 and FG-1D (F4U-1A and F4U-1D equivalents) need serial to tell which is which. ALL delivered to the FAA in Glossy Sea Blue. Wheel wells in Glossy Sea Blue.

I hope this helps!

Bruce

Hi Bruce, would light gull grey suffice or do I need to go to a lighter shade similar to what they were painting the naval aircraft prior to hostilities? An FS number would be nice. In the past I have used olive drab and gunship grey, the bottom was a lightened light gull grey. Is that even close?

Cheers

[Bruce Archer]

Hi Bruce, would light gull grey suffice or do I need to go to a lighter shade similar to what they were painting the naval aircraft prior to hostilities? An FS number would be nice. In the past I have used olive drab and gunship grey, the bottom was a lightened light gull grey. Is that even close?

Cheers

Hmmm

USN Non-Specular light grey is an AN color. Perhaps a trip to the IPMS Stockholm site will help.

Bruce

[Steven Eisenman]

Light Gull Gray and Light Gray are no the same. I have used Tamiya Sky Gray with a little white. There is also MM aircraft gray, and a light gray, IIRC.

here is dana Bell's observations:

Light Grays...

July 27 2013 at 10:41 PM

Dana Bell (Login DanaBellColors)
HyperScale Forums
from IP address 173.79.164.131

Response to ANA 602 for BirdCage Corsair?

As noted, the original Light Gray for the pre-war monochromatic camouflage and for the wartime Blue Gray/Light Gray scheme was a color all to itself. Although often called Neutrality Gray, that's a modern name that saw no wartime use. (It seems to combine the Navy's Neutrality Patrol with the AAF's Neutral Gray.)

When the ANA colors came along, Light Gray became ANA 602. I've compared my 1943 color chip with prewar samples at the National Archives, and the color is a pretty good match.

When using US camouflage paints for British aircraft, Light Gray was an accepted (if rarely used) substitute for Sea Grey Medium.

With the end of the Navy's use of the Blue Gray/Light Gray scheme, Light Gray eventually fell out of use. By the 1950s, it was no longer useful enough to rate a translation into the new federal specs.

Light Gull Gray came about in early 1944, eventually designated ANA 620. With Light Gray 602 out of favor, Light Gull Gray was ALSO allowed as a substitute (again, rarely used) for Sea Gray Medium. In FS 595, Light Gull Gray became 36440.

In the late 1960s, the Navy was giving out stacks of free ANA color standard booklets, and many modelers were able to get copies for the cost of postage. Trying to match 602 to FS 595, it turned out that there were no good matches; the closest was none other than 36440, which was browner and a bit darker. With two colors noted as "equivilent" to 36440, many thought the original WWII paints were identical - they weren't. The fact that Aeromaster called their paint Light Gull Gray 602 indicates the depth of the confusion - a color can be Light Gull Gray or it can be ANA 602, but it cannot be both.

So that's where the problems come from. As you noted, both paints are tannish, and neither will work very well for Light Gray. (That is, of course, unless you like the color, in which case it's just fine!) Any fairly light, pale gray will do. Oddly enough, you might even be happy with Sea Gray Medium - THAT would be a switch! (I'd darken it ever so slightly, but it's not so awful.

Good luck finding the right color - wish I had a favorite I could advise you to use...
Cheers,




Dana

[Guest]

Thanks for the post Steven. I have plenty of MSG since I build primarily FAA and RAF aircraft. Dana is an amazing source for colors. I understand he has published a couple of hard to find books on aircraft colors? My next Corsair build will hopefully be more accurate in color scheme. I used LGG before because it looked similar, there is no Model Master color equivalent to ANA 602 unfortunately so I went with what seemed the next best thing. In the long run it is not that big of a deal but I like to be as close as possible when I paint a kit. Thanks again.

Randy

[Nick Millman]

Hobby paints notwithstanding MSG does not resemble ANA 602, not least because the former is a Munsell PB (Purple Blue) and the latter a Munsell Y (Yellow). MSG is a cool blue-grey (or should be!) and ANA 602 a warm, slightly brownish grey. The difference between the two standards is a whopping 10.9 where <2.0 = a close match.

ANA 602 was originally promulgated as a substitute for MSG, the requirement for which (in US factories) was to be eliminated but in January 1944 this was revised and Navy Dark Gull Gray 621 was supposed to be adopted as standard to replace both MSG and ANA 602. However the latter colour continued to be included in ANA Bulletin 157 until 1959 together with ANA 620 and both had FS 36440 cited against them as the replacement colour standard to be employed.

I've measured the ANA swatches and in fact 602 is a little darker than 620, not lighter as stated above. There is a reason for this to do with the pigments used for Light Gray and Light Gull Gray but the retention of both well into the 1950s is a bit mysterious. Paints matched to 602 contained the anatase form of titanium dioxide (white) which had a tendency to chalk whereas paints matched to 620 contained the rutile form which was resistant to chalking. This suggests that the 602 standard was perhaps darker because the chalking effect of the applied paint was understood and allowed for but I have no direct evidence for that. The retention also suggests that there might have been a specific requirement for 602. I think that might be connected to USAAF requirements as Neutral Gray was to be dropped in 1942, supposedly to be replaced by the 'dark' colour ANA 603 Sea Gray and later FS 36118. This might also be related to Graham Boak's observations about 'light' versions of Neutral Gray seen in photographs.

Here is the colour science:-

ANA 602 Light Gray = Munsell 5.5 Y 6.0/0.8 = FS 36440 @ 2.78

ANA 620 Light Gull Gray = Munsell 5.6 Y 6.7/0.5 = FS 36357 @ 2.72 (FS 36440 is @ 7.41)

The Munsell Value (the central number) show that 602 is darker and the Chroma (the last number) that it is slightly more saturated than 620. The difference between the two is @ 5.98.

But bear in mind that those are the paint colour standards and applied paints made to match those standards could and did vary. When people talk about ANA and "Dupont Sky Grey" they are mixing two different terms. ANA was a paint colour standard and "Dupont Sky Grey" a proprietary paint manufactured to match the British MAP colour standard Sky. The ANA standard for Sky was 610. Aircraft manufacturer paint specifications often cite the ANA numbers without cross referencing the paint manufacturers designations, so there can be an element of doubt as to which paint was procured and applied.

I would like to see more evidence for the statement that Corsairs intended for the FAA had 602 undersides. The Temperate Sea scheme (TSS) under surface colour required by the FAA was provided for both by pre-ANA matched paints like Dupont 71-021 and subsequently ANA 610 Sky. 610 was never dropped from the standard and was still included in Bulletin 157 in 1959. ANA 602 was not required in the USN tri-colour scheme so it is difficult to understand why it would have been used even expediently in the Corsair factories. However there would have been no difference in the upper surface colours applied as substitutes for the TSS and Day Fighter scheme (DFS) as both were Olive Drab ANA 613 and Sea Gray ANA 603. It could be argued that using 602 as a standard under surface colour would ease procurement/supply but in reality FAA and RAF fighters were not being built by the same aircraft manufacturers. North American's Mustang drawings show 602 for the under surface colour (for MSG) and 610 (called Sky Blue!) for the prop spinner which shows that 610 was 'known' to US manufacturers and included in procurement requirements.

There was a brief period when the JAC accepted Neutral Gray as the standard under surface colour on land based aircraft - in early 1942 - but that was soon objected to by the British and overruled, probably one of the reasons that Sky was incorporated into the ANA colours.

Nick

[iang]

Really helpful post, Nick.

Thanks

[iang]

Also, don't use the T of the code letters!! I believe the markings have been confused with 'T8H' another FAA Corsair which was flown by a Canadian pilot!

Really? For Operation Meridian I & II, 1834 squadron used T7x codes and 1836 squadron T8x codes. The use of letter-figure-letter codes was also the case for Operation Lentil for other squadrons with the BEIF, and I assume, therefore, Victorious' squadrons conformed. I believe that figure-letter codes were in use until operation Robson, with the change-over to letter-figure-letter codes between Robson and Lentil. Before this change over, 1834 and 1836 squadron Corsairs would have been coded 7x and 8x respectively and Hay's JT427 would have been coded RH. There are also photos where the 'T' has clearly been recently added in front of the figure-letter code (perhaps these were taken around the time of operation Lentil?).

Certainly for Operation Meridian I and II Hay's Corsair was coded T.RH. I have copies of all of his Combat Reports for JT427 and they all indicate a letter-figure-letter code (as does every other Victorious Corsair Combat Report from this operation).

HTH

IG

Edited May 31, 2014 by iang

[Paul J]

Really? For Operation Meridian I & II, 1834 squadron used T7x codes and 1836 squadron T8x codes. The use of letter-figure-letter codes was also the case for Operation Lentil for other squadrons with the BEIF, and I assume, therefore, Victorious' squadrons conformed. I believe that )figure-letter codes were in use until operation Robson, with the change-over to letter-figure-letter codes between Robson and Lentil. 1834 and 1836 squadron Corsairs would have been coded 7x and 8x respectively and Hay's JT427 would have been coded RH. There are also photos where the 'T' has clearly been recently added in front of the figure-letter code (perhaps these were taken around the time of operation Lentil?).

Certainly for Operation Meridian I and II Hay's Corsair was coded T.RH. I have copies of all of his Combat Reports for JT427 and they all indicate a letter-figure-letter code (as does every other Victorious Corsair Combat Report from this operation).

HTH

IG

Clearly you know and have much more info than I do. Fair dos! I based my model and info on a couple photos in books. Thats it.

[mick b]

Ronnie Hay was possibly the only FAA (Royal Marine) pilot to have personalised codes RH on his aeroplane.

The Fleet Air Arm's most successful fighter pilot Richard 'Dickie' Cork was killed in his Corsair JT269 which carried the personal codes RC.

Mick

[Paul J]

I DID say 'possibly'! And he was the only Marine, whilst correct, Dickie Cork was Royal Navy.

[Guest]

When it comes to FAA Corsairs who can we trust to be at least somewhat accurate? Most of the manufacturers produce fair to good quality decals but what about historical accuracy? The Sky decal sheet is full of flaws from what I understand, Techmod is a tad better depending on who you talk to, and Xtradecal is supposed to do the best job. Anyone have any tips on the best decals to use in 1/48? I would hate to go through all the work of using the most accurate colors possible and wreck the whole thing with inaccurate decals. I think the only decent set I have is the defunct White Dog decals featuring Hammy Grey's famous Corsair, but even there we have a big dispute over the accuracy of the decals despite their high quality. It seems decals are about as accurate as most of the kits we buy.

Cheers

[Plumbum]

Well since nothing is set in stone and no one knows what the real colors or markings were I

guess I will go with Tech Mod 1/32 decals for my ancient 1/32 Revell FAA Corsair. Then since

I haven't got airbrush yet I will go with rattle cans, olive drab, gunship gray, and sky.Not exactly

AN colors but they look close enough!---John

[Plumbum]

This picture aboard HMS Illustrious shows why the wings were clipped.---John

[Bruce Archer]

Hobby paints notwithstanding MSG does not resemble ANA 602, not least because the former is a Munsell PB (Purple Blue) and the latter a Munsell Y (Yellow). MSG is a cool blue-grey (or should be!) and ANA 602 a warm, slightly brownish grey. The difference between the two standards is a whopping 10.9 where <2.0 = a close match.

ANA 602 was originally promulgated as a substitute for MSG, the requirement for which (in US factories) was to be eliminated but in January 1944 this was revised and Navy Dark Gull Gray 621 was supposed to be adopted as standard to replace both MSG and ANA 602. However the latter colour continued to be included in ANA Bulletin 157 until 1959 together with ANA 620 and both had FS 36440 cited against them as the replacement colour standard to be employed.

I've measured the ANA swatches and in fact 602 is a little darker than 620, not lighter as stated above. There is a reason for this to do with the pigments used for Light Gray and Light Gull Gray but the retention of both well into the 1950s is a bit mysterious. Paints matched to 602 contained the anatase form of titanium dioxide (white) which had a tendency to chalk whereas paints matched to 620 contained the rutile form which was resistant to chalking. This suggests that the 602 standard was perhaps darker because the chalking effect of the applied paint was understood and allowed for but I have no direct evidence for that. The retention also suggests that there might have been a specific requirement for 602. I think that might be connected to USAAF requirements as Neutral Gray was to be dropped in 1942, supposedly to be replaced by the 'dark' colour ANA 603 Sea Gray and later FS 36118. This might also be related to Graham Boak's observations about 'light' versions of Neutral Gray seen in photographs.

Here is the colour science:-

ANA 602 Light Gray = Munsell 5.5 Y 6.0/0.8 = FS 36440 @ 2.78

ANA 620 Light Gull Gray = Munsell 5.6 Y 6.7/0.5 = FS 36357 @ 2.72 (FS 36440 is @ 7.41)

The Munsell Value (the central number) show that 602 is darker and the Chroma (the last number) that it is slightly more saturated than 620. The difference between the two is @ 5.98.

But bear in mind that those are the paint colour standards and applied paints made to match those standards could and did vary. When people talk about ANA and "Dupont Sky Grey" they are mixing two different terms. ANA was a paint colour standard and "Dupont Sky Grey" a proprietary paint manufactured to match the British MAP colour standard Sky. The ANA standard for Sky was 610. Aircraft manufacturer paint specifications often cite the ANA numbers without cross referencing the paint manufacturers designations, so there can be an element of doubt as to which paint was procured and applied.

I would like to see more evidence for the statement that Corsairs intended for the FAA had 602 undersides. The Temperate Sea scheme (TSS) under surface colour required by the FAA was provided for both by pre-ANA matched paints like Dupont 71-021 and subsequently ANA 610 Sky. 610 was never dropped from the standard and was still included in Bulletin 157 in 1959. ANA 602 was not required in the USN tri-colour scheme so it is difficult to understand why it would have been used even expediently in the Corsair factories. However there would have been no difference in the upper surface colours applied as substitutes for the TSS and Day Fighter scheme (DFS) as both were Olive Drab ANA 613 and Sea Gray ANA 603. It could be argued that using 602 as a standard under surface colour would ease procurement/supply but in reality FAA and RAF fighters were not being built by the same aircraft manufacturers. North American's Mustang drawings show 602 for the under surface colour (for MSG) and 610 (called Sky Blue!) for the prop spinner which shows that 610 was 'known' to US manufacturers and included in procurement requirements.

There was a brief period when the JAC accepted Neutral Gray as the standard under surface colour on land based aircraft - in early 1942 - but that was soon objected to by the British and overruled, probably one of the reasons that Sky was incorporated into the ANA colours.

Nick

We seem to be at odds again Nick. Back when Vought was an independent company, they, along with Republic and Grumman maintained historical offices, which young snot-nosed kids like me could visit and browse records. The only light greys mentioned on the records (from my hand scrabbled notes) were (mentioned by name) was Non-specular Light Grey (which Vought needed to stock for the USN) and DuPont "Sky Grey". No others.

Again the attitude of most American manufacturers was "its close enough". Production would not be held up for paint. And why buy a second color when you had one close? Paint specs are one thing, and what came out of the factory was another.

Bruce