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A BIG Rolls Royce


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I'm really sorry to hear/read this, Chas. Hope you will find pleasure and distraction in your model building activities.

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A very late coming to the build, Im genuinely sorry to read your having problems at home any illness with family member is always difficult regardless of the form it takes. 

 

The build.....OMG. I have only looked at the pictures and read a few choice explanations of your work but it has to be the best model I have ever seen built in particular the engine and chassis it was almost a shame to see them covered. You are truly inspirational, not sure if your a genius or mad but your definitely inspirational. 

 

All the best at home.

 

Brian

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7 hours ago, rockpopandchips said:

The build.....OMG. I have only looked at the pictures and read a few choice explanations of your work but it has to be the best model I have ever seen built in particular the engine and chassis it was almost a shame to see them covered. You are truly inspirational, not sure if your a genius or mad but your definitely inspirational. 

 

Brian, you're very kind but I must protest. I bolded the comment in your post because I must advise you that there are at least a couple of dozen advanced, exceedingly well done models here which eclipse mine easily. That gent Poul, posted just above you, is just one, a rare Pocher Alfa Coupe which he is performing miracles on.

Pochers, MFH's, total  scratch builds, part works, trans kits - the list goes on and on. Search around and you will be rewarded by the many talented folks here.

 

And thanks to you and Poul among those who have expressed kind words about the medical woes here. We continue to fight on...

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12 hours ago, Codger said:

Brian, you're very kind but I must protest. I bolded the comment in your post because I must advise you that there are at least a couple of dozen advanced, exceedingly well done models here which eclipse mine easily. That gent Poul, posted just above you, is just one, a rare Pocher Alfa Coupe which he is performing miracles on.

Pochers, MFH's, total  scratch builds, part works, trans kits - the list goes on and on. Search around and you will be rewarded by the many talented folks here.

 

And thanks to you and Poul among those who have expressed kind words about the medical woes here. We continue to fight on...

 

I'm blushing here. Thanks for the compliment but I do personally not consider myself to be in the same league as you are.

Edited by Pouln
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Catching up...

This update was compiled over the last several weeks in small fits of time. It has been refreshing because I've finally found a solid method to fabricate the hood panels.

I had to abandon the idea of scratch-built top panels of ally, brass or plastic seen in past posts. The major problem was getting hinges and sub structure to attach. My original objection to the kit plastic panels was that the alterations to the main body would require material to be added to the hoods. I didn't want to glue on plastic shims and then have to putty many seams. But I found a better way after some experimenting.

Seen here is a panel with the raised molding sanded off and replaced with .040 white card. To this was added .040 half-round on the inner edge to mimic the cowl's molding - it is not a straight flat edge but a gentle return. Of course, never leaving anything as Pocher intended, I taper the molding thinner at the leading edge in keeping with the car's 'streamlined' look.

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Here are the panels together and the taper is visible. Also seen here is the solution in the works for adding material to get perfect panel gaps. My filler of choice is 3M Bondo 801, a two-part which will not shrink. I learned I could make durable and accurate additions with filler.

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The panels required additions on the left front and both rear edges. The method that works starts by applying medical tape on the underside of the panel then applying a ribbon of filler. The 3M cures in 20 minutes but I always give parts an hour or so for complete cure; it sands to a fine edge that way.

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Sanding 90 degrees gives a nice clean edge and when the top contours are sanded to match the panel it becomes an invisible join under primer. An important tip is the bevel the top edges of the panel before filler is applied; this makes a transition for the filler-to-panel and not a sharp line.

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Seen in place the filled edges are evident and the gaps near perfect. I may remove a bit more material for paint thickness but the contours match. The darker red smears of filler are the Bondo 907  for very minor imperfections - it's literally a scratch filler. It can shrink but leaving to air dry a long time and using in very thin applications will stop that. The circle at the left front show that corner slightly raised and needing attention. A hot water dip and pressure cured that as seen in the next shot. And The Bondo is unaffected by near-boiling water and some pressure - it does not flake or break off as hobby fillers would.

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The look of symmetry I was seeking. The other big discovery I made earlier was that the bushing for the hinge pin was too tall; shortening that allowed the center of the panels to sink behind the grille as the 1:1's and no bending of a 'dog house' was needed to match the grille. I wasted a lot of materials learning that. :wall:

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On to the hood side panels which needed major modification so I decided to scratch build these with a twist. Using file card, I made a pattern of the opening which differs from the kit panel. It is less tall and slightly longer.

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Here is seen the difference between early and late K-72 kit hoods. The early version has a beveled bottom which is wrong. The fender aprons it rests on are flat. So check your kit carefully. I measured out the louver area and transferred that to the file card. Then, using the early spare hood I cut out the louvers with a 5mm border, this so I could piece it into a scratch built .060 panel I will make. Then I would have room around to fill and blend the join.1011M_zpsceybhlnh.jpg

And this is the direction we're headed. The key element to the Phantom II look is the 'mile-long' row of louvers, absolutely straight in line with the cowl louvers. The stock hood panels NEVER align these key elements. This, along with the absolutely straight hood top line (radically different than a stock Pocher kit) are the pay-off for all the slicing and dicing of panel, roof and channeling the body onto the frame, done so long ago.

I can die a happy man now...

1012M_zps1a2rvzbi.jpg
 

Edited by Codger
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fantastic ingenuity and plenty of very valuable technical lessons in there... 

( may be you were part of Apollo 13 or at least mission control )

a BIG THANK YOU 

 

ps love the front view with the wheels a bit steered, the car seems to be moving with a sense of drama.

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That is a fantastic hood you are creating. I love the fit. Thanks for the warnings regarding the hood side panels (I have an older kit in my stash).

I think the hood is about the last part of your build, isn't it?

You're definately on the home stretch now.

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Striking while iron is hot...

Thanks to all for the encouragement and yes Poul, I know the finishline is ahead in the fog. Just need to make the last few parts hundreds of times as usual, first.

Here's the port side panel in the flesh. Just need to get the 4 sides blended with filler so there are no seams. Lots of fill / sand / prime. Then install the hinge which allows the side to fold from the top panel. Some minor trimming here and there and Bob's my Uncle - I HOPE.

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The test fit moment of truth; Got the louver tops in alignment with the cowl's - BLISS! Doesn't help that Pocher made the cowl louvers 1mm less tall than the hood's - unless Rolls did that ? IMPOSSIBLE, 'The World's Best Motorcar' in 1932 would never allow that!!

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A little fun with the paint program gives a clearer look at where it will be. Can't color the louvers without further insanity...

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Final challenge will be to build the starboard side to fit and align perfectly there. But the good news is that this panel fits dead on in that opening so far. May just need louver alignment. Some final details like the spotlight and.....don't even want to think that far ahead......:(

 

Edited by Codger
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Fantastic work as always Mr C.

 I have to ask though, how did you cut the louvres? I have a feeling my Bentley may need new bonnet side panels......

 

Ian

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14 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Fantastic work as always Mr C.

 I have to ask though, how did you cut the louvres? I have a feeling my Bentley may need new bonnet side panels......

 

Ian

To be clear Ian, I did not fabricate each individual louver, as say, Thierry has done.

Rather, I removed the block of them from spare hood panels as seen in this earlier snap. I left a 5mm border around them (yellow tape) so that no filler fouls the tips of them where it joins the cut-out in the fabricated white panel.

1011M_zpsceybhlnh.jpg

 

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An interesting factoid...

A brief conversation with David Cox has uncovered a 'taken for granted' fact about Phantom II Sedancas (and probably Torpedoes too) and their louvered 'bonnets'.

To get the placement of the block of louvers correct to Gurney Nutting (GN) Phantoms, I began to experiment with their placement withing a few millimeters. In an off hand comment, David said words to effect that 'Pocher has the  wrong number'. This caused me to more carefully study my books and photos and sure enough there's a significant difference.

Pocher molds 35 louvers into the hood side panels. At least two originals have only 31. Gentile's 201 RY being one - a very famous car (restored to original configuration) at Pebble Beach and other concours.

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They are also closer to the edge next to the cowl than Pocher chose. Further, I discovered that Pocher only molds five louvers into the cowl where the two prototypes I studied have eight and nine respectively. This is a significant change in the look of the car's coach.

Granted, these originals were all 'custom' coachbuilt with selections by the owners. Rolls Royce offered a factory choice of 11 degree slants to the louvers or upright vertical and included the hoods with the chassis to the coachbuilder. A few wealthy clients had more or less louvers made with more radical slants to their angle. There is no right or wrong with these cars, just a presentation of what was done most often by coachbuilders.

So my dilemma became what to do? In an early experiment, I shaved and filled-in two louvers at the front to gain some room for filler at the front edge of the surrounding hood. This was successful and the filled louvers are undetectable in primer. That panel is seen in an earlier post.

So I can:

Fill 3 louvers at front edge and 1 at rear.

Any combination filled to reduce number to 31.

Leave as is with 35 because: a. it's easier, b. if it looks good it's OK.

I cannot: Alter the number of cowl louvers.

One can look at this classic as a model of a 'Pocher' which resembles a certain Rolls, NOT a custom coach with all the cues of a Gurney Nutting or Barker car. I strove to emulate the proportions of true GN cars; the stock Pocher has too many compromises to that look. Any stock Pocher can build into a lovely model, make no mistake. But the trademark GN low roof, channeled body and flat hood only come with radical alteration to the Pocher.

Tempest in a teapot? Probably. But the thought I wish to impart is that ANY Pocher classic is a compromise to what the prototype cars were. Indeed, most are compilations of features from several models or years of prototypes. Several wildly talented builders here have undertaken intense study and measurements of researched cars and attempted and accomplished staggering alterations (including track width and wheelbase)  to Pocher kits - especially the Alfas. If 'accuracy' is your goal, load up on research and study it carefully. This can apply also to the modern sport cars from Pocher with which Pocher was forced to simplify detail because of the staggering complexity of the original. That's why transkits for them have become almost a 'must-have'.

I still didn't decide what I'll do but here is a fun 'coloring book' look at the actual parts in the actual colors on the car. I graphically reduced the number of louvers to 31 but left the cowl as it must remain. This is the actual fabricated hood with the louvers in their actual placement in relation to the cowl's louvers. I can be happy with this.

1016M_zps0wle2iha.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Codger
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Oh ohhhh, I see major rework coming up.

I checked some pictures in Andre Blaize's books. Many different configurations. Ranging from 7 to 10 louvres in the cowl or none or just one vent door. 

Also different numbers of louvres on the hood side panels as you said.

 

Oh well, thinking cap up. We have faith that you will come up with the right decision and, when needed, the right solution.

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58 minutes ago, Pouln said:

Oh ohhhh, I see major rework coming up.

I checked some pictures in Andre Blaize's books. Many different configurations. Ranging from 7 to 10 louvres in the cowl or none or just one vent door. 

Also different numbers of louvres on the hood side panels as you said.

 

Oh well, thinking cap up. We have faith that you will come up with the right decision and, when needed, the right solution.

 

Better to find out now....as frustrating as it is...knowing Mr C....a challenge well met I am sure ;)

 

 

Ron

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46 minutes ago, Codger said:

Nay, nay my friends! Any alterations will be to the new panel and the simple expedient of filling a few slots. No more 'round the world' changes for these tired eyes...

 

Hmmmm....why don't I believe you Mr C :bangin:

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Geeeez guys I'm just starting my crankshaft on my long road ahead.

Seems every day I check the site there is more changes! My road is getting longer all the time lol.

Some very impressive work.

I hope I can do near as well. Sure looking forward to the challenge.

All the best Codger 

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It seems to me that all you would have to do is cut the kit part down to 31 louvers and change the plastic card opening to accommodate the new position of the louvers adding the extra sheet metal in place of them. Or, you can just leave it as is but, somehow I doubt that, that will happen now that, you know the actual count on the hood. Great tip on using the surgical tape and adding the putty on a leading edge. Just another example of necessity being the mother of invention.

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For what it's worth, I think the number of louvers is less important and less noticeable than the distances between the louvers and the front and rear edges of the bonnet panels.

 

I would guess that the width of the louvers and the spaces between them are too small so Pocher added additional louvers to make the position of the louvers on the panels and the size of the blank spaces on either end appear reasonably accurate.

Edited by Endeavor
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