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Lancaster handrail colour - the Lancaster's yellow version of the Spitfire's red crowbar?

elger

By elger
in Aircraft WWII

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elger Very Obsessed Member

elger

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Hi all,

Doing some research for my next project and I was wondering if this could be settled once and for all. The handrail in a Lancaster cockpit is yellow in all the preserved Lancaster cockpits - including DV372 at the IWM which is supposedly unrestored. Some argue that wartime Lancs had black (i.e. Cockpit coloured) or even red handrails.

I have no vested interest in the matter, I am simply wondering what kind of evidence there is to suggest that the handrail was not yellow, when it appears to be yellow in Lancaster survivors - even in DV372?

Your thoughts and expertise are highly appreciated!

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Edgar Completely Obsessed Member

Edgar

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Yellow is a useful colour because it's more easily visible in the dark, which is why ejection seat handles have been yellow and black, and, in an emergency, the handle would be seen.
It's a (very) long shot, but it could depend on what it was made of; the pilot's armoured headrest was magnetic (as were other areas of armour,) so had a warning yellow circle painted on it. If it was made of steel, it could have been painted yellow to warn the navigator to keep his hand-held compass well away during star-shots.

Edgar

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Julien Blabber Mouth

Julien

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Is the IWM nose restored or actually original? It's a long time since I have seen it. It has a yellow handrail apparently (and, as 'original' evidence - lolly wrappers).

http://somethingverybig.com/tag/lancaster-dv372/

Reading that I would say it was unrestored.

Thanks for the link, good read.

Julien

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chaddy Very Obsessed Member

chaddy

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Perhaps somebody might ask a surviving bomb aimer if they can remember? It's a long time ago I know, but an answer from that quarter would be interesting.

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galgos Very Obsessed Member

galgos

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The crew members I've asked so far Chaddy can't remember. I'll be seeing a few, if they can make it still, at Waddington this Friday so I'll ask the question.

As far as I'm aware DV372, Freddie the Fox, is unrestored. She was at Duxford stored in the workshop when I was there last September. It was difficult to see clearly but to my eyes she certainly looked in every respect to be in original condition complete with yellow handrail.

Max

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chaddy Very Obsessed Member

chaddy

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Always worth a try, I think, even though it's one of the things you might not expect someone to remember. It will be very interesting to hear what they say Max.

In the meantime I've been looking at Lancaster at War 2. On page 60 there is a b & w pic from the navigators position looking forward that clearly shows the grab rails. Their tone, compared to the surrounding area is clearly lighter, though impossible to tell what colour. The caption includes the following:

"Also visible are the yellow-painted guide rails leading down into the bomb aimer's compartment".

Unfortunately there is no way of knowing if this is colour reference is contemporary evidence.

Edgar's suggestion makes great sense, and would be a perfect possible explanation.

I would just ask the question of why those rails would be fabricated from steel. If they were I'd assume they would have been one of the first things chucked out of the Grand Slam aircraft in order to save weight.This might be fairly readily resolved by anyone with a friend with the BBMF or at East Kirby, etc. It's interesting that all the restored aircraft (flying or not) and the IWM cockpit have come up with yellow for those handrails. Coincidence or based on some historic evidence?

Edited by chaddy
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chaddy Very Obsessed Member

chaddy

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Here is an interior shot of the IWM Lanc I took in July 2011. At the time it looked to me that it had been untouched in years

Trevor

I love that shot Trevor. Got any more like it? It's been over 20 years since I've been to the IWM in London.

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Hotel Papa Established Member

Hotel Papa

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I would just ask the question of why those rails would be fabricated from steel.

Looking at that photo the handrail appears to be of welded construction. How prevalent was aluminium welding capability back then?

Also, if you otimise for rigidity or strength, aluminium and steel constructions tend to come out at about the same weight. An optimised steel construction may arrive at impractically thin parts, however.

Stability (buckling) is a different issue. There the "naturally thicker" wall of the lower tensile strenght material (aluminium) is an advantage. Stressed skin design is mainly a stability problem.

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Edgar Completely Obsessed Member

Edgar

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I would just ask the question of why those rails would be fabricated from steel.

I did say that I thought that to be a long shot; with more yellow rails appearing, I much prefer the simple "visibility" angle.

Edgar

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chaddy Very Obsessed Member

chaddy

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I did say that I thought that to be a long shot; with more yellow rails appearing, I much prefer the simple "visibility" angle.

Edgar

Not casting any doubt on your theory Edgar. It's the most reasoned one I've heard so far.

But as you say, visibility would be as good a reason as any since isn't the escape hatch down there?

Edited by chaddy
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Max Headroom Blabber Mouth

Max Headroom

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I love that shot Trevor. Got any more like it? It's been over 20 years since I've been to the IWM in London.

Here are the others I took that day

DSCF1839.jpg

DSCF1825.jpg

DSCF1815.jpg

A bit off topic but may be of use!

Trevor

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chaddy Very Obsessed Member

chaddy

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Looking at that photo the handrail appears to be of welded construction. How prevalent was aluminium welding capability back then?

Also, if you otimise for rigidity or strength, aluminium and steel constructions tend to come out at about the same weight. An optimised steel construction may arrive at impractically thin parts, however.

Stability (buckling) is a different issue. There the "naturally thicker" wall of the lower tensile strenght material (aluminium) is an advantage. Stressed skin design is mainly a stability problem.

Well I'm pretty certain it wasn't entirely unknown. However, I understand what you are saying. Have a look at the frame for the second pilot/engineer's folding seat. Part of that appears welded also. It's not painted yellow, so what does that imply with regard to material and/or likelihood of welded aluminium tubing?

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Hotel Papa Established Member

Hotel Papa

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Have a look at the frame for the second pilot/engineer's folding seat. Part of that appears welded also. It's not painted yellow, so what does that imply with regard to material and/or likelihood of welded aluminium tubing?

All the other complex shaped parts in there look to be cast or (die) forged. I'd really expect a part in the shape of that handrail to be made of steel. If you look at the vertical tubes in Trevor's last photo, these are clearly steel (look at the scuffed, oxidized sections.) But then, no yellow marker colour there, so there...

Of course the visibilty aspect is also an important one.

I do wonder a bit about the unscuffed paint coat of that rail. Handrails tend to be pretty worn. If you look at the shroud right above it, where shoulders would pontentially brush along, it's completely devoid of paint.

Edited by Hotel Papa
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Hotel Papa Established Member

Hotel Papa

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Stainless steel, which is non-magnetic, was in use during the war.

Edgar

But that's clearly not used for those vertical tubes. They are very much rust-stained. (And I'd be very surprised if strategic materials like nickel and chromium (8 and 18% respectively in non-magnetic s.s.) were used in such amounts on simple structural parts with minor functions.)

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Flankerman Very Obsessed Member

Flankerman

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FWIW, the handrails on London Buses are yellow..........

http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ElbowRail.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AvJ4ixSpiX4/TxnEZxQ1TnI/AAAAAAAABFU/zs0zLIEWoQM/s1600/027.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ALfwMaBL2bU/ULYN5gP2amI/AAAAAAAAE6Q/1dgj4DYzXAg/s400/yellow+handrail+on+bus.jpg

Ken

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Selwyn Very Obsessed Member

Selwyn

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FWIW Yellow bus hand rails became mandatory only in the 1990's before that they were usually chrome or white.

Selwyn

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