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Messerschmitt Me-410 B-2/U-2 - 1/72 conversion from Italeri Me-210 A-1


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Well, one thing I've figured out about myself is that making a new WIP thread is what should help me get cracking with this... My studies are trying to keep me away from modelling, but I'm not ready to pause with it just yet...

Let me quickly introduce you to this little Italeri's kit.

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Two A4-sized sprues, one with clear bits and a disappointingly small decal sheet... I'll also use that big left-over sheet from Bf-110 I made a short while ago...

The idea for finished model right now is to make it quite asymmetrical, with port side having exposed DB-603 engine (to be scratch built, having done two DB-601 for Bf-110 should prove helpful), flap, aileron and slats in landing position, radiator cowling flaps opened fully as well, while starboard side should be clean, just to show this bird's (what I consider) beautiful lines.

Of course, this being a conversion, one - two actually - obvious things that need to be taken care of are wings - outer halves of 'em need to be swept forward to begin with (I haven't a clue why 210 has swept back wings in the first place, I guess Germans decided to experiment a bit with aerodynamic effects of that, maybe they needed to regulate center of gravity). Luckily, studying a number of technical drawing revealed that I should be able to use those outer sections, just rotating them around a specific point should prove enough. Fuselage shouldn't require too many changes, 210 A-1 has elongated fuselage in the first place, so that doesn't require any work, just a bit of rescribing should do the trick...

This kit isn't very detailed (if I got it right, this should be a rebox of an old kit, from the early nineties), not that it matters since I'll be glad to add a few of my own, but fit looks good for now...

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... though a few places seem to require a bit of filler (left and middle picture). Italeri have got intake cross-section right (right picture), it's a circle as it should be, I think Revell got that wrong on all of their models of 210 and 410, both 72nd and 48th scale, with an elliptical cross-section.

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A bit of work down under as well, other than filling I'll also open up wheel wells, aforementioned radiator flaps, stuff like that...

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These two were developed at the same time, one was given a second chance, mostly in Africa if I got it right, the one I aim to change didn't, it just wasn't a good war-plane. A lot of similarities between them (length, wingspan, cockpit position, same engine family), obviously...

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This picture shows the major differences between 210 and 410, wings being the biggest on of course...

Me_210_and_410_Wing_Planform_Comparison.

... and this paint scheme is the main reason why I chose to convert it...

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Hopefully, it should like a bit like this in the end...

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Love the way engines stick out of wings...

I'll be using whatever pictures I can to get the details right, like this Aires wheel well...

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... as well as number of impressive build stories, like this one...

http://www.modelersalliance.com/forum/chukw/147807-me410-all-the-way

... and some reviews of bigger scale models...

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234949148-messerschmitt-me410a-1-hornisse-148/?hl=%2Bmesserschmitt+%2B210

Some of you may have noticed a cutting mat that wasn't there while Bf-110 was on the bench, got it today as well as Humbrol filler and a nice little model of Rogožarski IK-3 "Belgrade Defender", a bird that tried to keep the Luftwaffe busy once bombing of Belgrade started... Unfortunately, Royal Yugoslav Air Force only had 12 of them, 6 weren't operational as it was still tested, but still our pilots took down 11 Bf-109 in fights in April '41, 3 of which were taken by

Sgt. Dušan Vujčić, whose IK-3 I'll be making once it gets its turn...

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For those interested in it, IK-3 was reported to be an overall improvement on Hawker Hurricane and more maneuverable than Bf-109 (pilots of 51st Fighter group were in charge of experimental work and RYAF had both Hurricane and 109 in its air fleet), but it had poorer rate of climb than 109 and it was slower as well (difference in engine power)...

Got all my tools and paints on the mat once I got it, it's not a large set, though you can see that I got myself a good number of new stuff (all of that during Bf-110 build) on the right...

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During this build, I'll buy a wheel riveter (store was out of them today) and an airbrush for the final paint job and that should be enough for the next couple of builds as well...

Back to Me-410, I hope to get some real work done during the weekend, however I expect this to be a slow-starter, since I'm a bit busy with some faculty stuff...

Anyway, I hope this was enough for an intro post, I'm looking forward to this build as well as all of your comments... :)

Cheers!

Edited by Vanja #66
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That makes two of us, Karl, got up early today so I could get something done today... Hopefully, there should be some pictures soon...

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Hi Vanja, I'll be following this one with interest. I in the painting phase of a Finemolds 410 back at home. I love that colour scheme you have chosen.

Good luck with the conversion.

DB

By the way the wheel wells of the 410 were normally closed up the way that Italeri have moulded them.

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Vanja#66

Impressive start..

Great start...looks good in MY eyes.

:thumbsup::worthy:

Hi HOUSTON, thanks for your undying support, really appreciate it, as always... :)

Hi Vanja, I'll be following this one with interest. I in the painting phase of a Finemolds 410 back at home. I love that colour scheme you have chosen.

Good luck with the conversion.

DB

By the way the wheel wells of the 410 were normally closed up the way that Italeri have moulded them.

Oh, hello Igor, how's your hunched back (and shoulder)? :D Thanks for that, hope you plan to share the pictures of your finished 410.

As for those wheel wells, I plan to open only the port one, I simply must try to get some nice structural details in there... I've seen that 410s mostly had closed wells even when standing, but I planned to leave the starboard one as it is anyway. It will require a bit of fiddling though, those doors are a bit different compared to 210...

Anyway, managed to get something done... After my last post I've spent another hour and a bit looking again at my references to confirm where to cut and sweep forward outer wing sections. Like georgeusa likes to say - it's always easier to cut a bit more than to add a bit later... Haven't printed any drawings yet, I'll get to that soon, for now I managed not to mess my monitor while leaning bits of wings to confirm their shape and position. Not something I did willingly, but taking measurements similar way was out of the question... Here's what I ended up with, what was once 3 pieces is now 15...

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Landing flaps are longer (some filling in the near future there as well), radiator cowlings are a bit different and needed to be separated, ailerons are thankfully identical. A bit later, voila - one Me-410... almost.

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Leading edges are now mostly straight (once I get them together it should look better), as are trailing edges... Luckily, this job didn't require adding things, rather it's a mater of cutting some stuff away...

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I've used my old piece of wooden fiberboard as a mat, since this was a rough job and I really didn't want to scar my smelly new cutting mat just yet...

Unfortunately, have to end this for today, other things require my attention...

Thanks for looking,

Cheers!

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I thought you'd know about the UC doors and that you just wanted to have everything hanging open "for maintenance". I applaud your madness at taking a 210 and converting it to a 410 when any sane person would just buy the Italeri 410! I suspect you are a true follower of Nigel and the way you hack and bash bits together to make something completely different makes me think you are more worthy of the Igor status! (for those wondering what I'm on about I refer you to almost any Terry Pratchet Discworld novel)

If it all goes horribly wrong drop me a PM as I have the basic bits of the Italeri 410 which my son glued together some years ago but never finished that you could salvage the wings from, I think 90% of the parts are there including many still on the sprues.

DB

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Well, to be honest, I wanted to make a 210 at first, but seeing that paint scheme I changed my mind instantly. Seeing how little difference there is between them, I wanted to try this little conversion (not that much of it in the end, but at least I feel comfortable knowing I could be ready to tackle more serious problems in the future), rather than buy a new kit. I'm having serious trouble resisting the urge to buy 10 models a day in the next 10 days, so I try to help myself by avoiding any unnecessary temptation... :D

Thanks for your generous offer, though I hope it won't be needed.

Also, an old camera that was out of business for a year now came back from the service shop today, it's Samsung S600, makes decent macro photos, so future photos should look a bit better...

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Got a few pieces together this morning, outer win sections are now glued up, along with upper inner sections. Before putting them all together, I should make my life easier by taking care of wheel wells first, so that's not gonna happen any time soon.

To help them stick together right, I got some rocket launcher struts (from an F-16 in 1/48th I think) as a support and to help get the alignment right, those things saw some black colour testing before, so that's why they look the way they do.

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Seeing this picture reminded me to turn date imprint off on my camera... Dry fitting the lower section reveals that things don't look too bad on starboard side...

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... a different story on the port side though...

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I'll get some scrap plastic there once I get to putting it together... Topside, things look mostly good...

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Viewed from the front, it looks okayish also...

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There will be a lot of corrections there, no matter how good or bad I had put them together, so I'm mostly satisfied how it all worked out... Got the flap and aileron parts together as well. Those will also require some more work later...

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Again, that's about it for today and it's probably good to let them set nicely before working on them further...

Thanks for watching...

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Having built the Italeri 210 myself as my first decent kit back into the hobby I'll be watching you work your magic on this one with interest. I have the 410 kit too which I bought just before they reissued it, as well as the finemolds kit and the matchbox one from the 70s as well.

Once i have my 111 out of the way, I'm thinking about redoing some of my earlier kits and seeing how they come out now I have a bit more experience, although my revell B17 is also calling me from its box in the garage. Guess we'll have to see.

Anyway, enjoy the build and keep us posted. How are you going to do the mottle with a hairy stick? My attempts can be seen on the link in my signature but they're way too rudimentary for a man of your talents.

Richard

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The surgery appears to be a success doctor!! And, the patient is recovering quite well with only a bit of minor stitch work required. Seriously, your self imposed ambitious project is off to a rocking start. I am impressed with your drive to get rid of an existing kit and know all too well the desire to go out and buy more kits. Went to the local shop for two tins of Humbrol, somehow left with a 1/144 Eduard Ju52m floatplane. I'm an addict, I know. (Did I mention I already have the Revell 1/48 beast still waiting to be built?) Anxiously awaiting your next installment.

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Having built the Italeri 210 myself as my first decent kit back into the hobby I'll be watching you work your magic on this one with interest. I have the 410 kit too which I bought just before they reissued it, as well as the finemolds kit and the matchbox one from the 70s as well.

Once i have my 111 out of the way, I'm thinking about redoing some of my earlier kits and seeing how they come out now I have a bit more experience, although my revell B17 is also calling me from its box in the garage. Guess we'll have to see.

Anyway, enjoy the build and keep us posted. How are you going to do the mottle with a hairy stick? My attempts can be seen on the link in my signature but they're way too rudimentary for a man of your talents.

Richard

Hi, Richard, I'm glad you noticed this thread, I was waiting for this... Thanks for those kind words, I really don't deserve them... Is this the B-17 you're talking about?

RevellB17Gboxtop.jpg

Got this thing yesterday, succumbed to my new weakness, but I stopped there. Having a look at this, it's incredibly detailed an I think it can compete with Eduard on this. Can't really tell anything about authenticity, since I'm not an expert or anywhere near on those, but the shear details are amazing. And for a bargain price... I think I will spend entire next year working on this, I really, really want to make it look right...

I've seen your RFI, even before I bought the kit and I after seeing it I said to myself - OK, this is the one. At the time I still wanted to go with 210... As for mottling, I'll get an airbrush before the final paint-job, if Nigel and Duncan say I'm ready for it, I have no choice but to trust them... I did have some ideas before deciding to get it, those mostly included doing basic paint-job, coating with acrylic gloss/satin lacquer, and doing the mottles after that. This way, I could use my smallest brush lightly dipped in thinner to make the edges of mottles (I hope I'm writing this the right way) a bit blurry, simply by going around those edges. Much like I tried to do something similar with cross between RLM72 and black on my Bf-110...

I hope you'll like what you see here, I saw that this is your favourite airplane, so your approval would mean a lot to me...

The surgery appears to be a success doctor!! And, the patient is recovering quite well with only a bit of minor stitch work required. Seriously, your self imposed ambitious project is off to a rocking start. I am impressed with your drive to get rid of an existing kit and know all too well the desire to go out and buy more kits. Went to the local shop for two tins of Humbrol, somehow left with a 1/144 Eduard Ju52m floatplane. I'm an addict, I know. (Did I mention I already have the Revell 1/48 beast still waiting to be built?) Anxiously awaiting your next installment.

Hello, Herr George Von US of A, I'm glad to see you here... Thank you on those words.

Yes, the addiction, the important thing is that you acknowledge it, it's the first step towards full reahbilitation...

Yesterday I spent some time filling the wings, got a coat and sanded it and a second one after that. I came back from faculty an hour ago, after leaving home 6.30 (it's 18.30 local time now), so I'll take a short rest and get on with final sanding before rescribing... I'll get some pictures here soon, right now there ain't much to see anyway...

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Two coats of filler and a bit of sanding... On some pictures it looks far from flat and even-sanded, but that's just how the light reflects... Outer sections of the wings are now ready for rescribing, since there would be a not-so-subtle difference of 6.5 degrees from straight panel lines...

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Don't know why, next couple of photos are a bit blurry, apologies for that, I'm still getting used to using my old camera in some new ways...

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All of the trailing edges have been sanded as much as possible, including the ones on separated aileron and flap...

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There will be more filling later, so I'll let myself forget what I see now and once I progress a bit more progress I'll use the opportunity to correct a couple more things. All in all, doesn't look too bad for now, I think I'll get a coat of random grey on so I could see how it looks under a coat of paint and it my help me with rescribing...

Thanks for looking,

Live Long and Prosper...

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Hi, Richard, I'm glad you noticed this thread, I was waiting for this... Thanks for those kind words, I really don't deserve them... Is this the B-17 you're talking about?

RevellB17Gboxtop.jpg

Got this thing yesterday, succumbed to my new weakness, but I stopped there. Having a look at this, it's incredibly detailed an I think it can compete with Eduard on this. Can't really tell anything about authenticity, since I'm not an expert or anywhere near on those, but the shear details are amazing. And for a bargain price... I think I will spend entire next year working on this, I really, really want to make it look right...

I've seen your RFI, even before I bought the kit and I after seeing it I said to myself - OK, this is the one. At the time I still wanted to go with 210... As for mottling, I'll get an airbrush before the final paint-job, if Nigel and Duncan say I'm ready for it, I have no choice but to trust them... I did have some ideas before deciding to get it, those mostly included doing basic paint-job, coating with acrylic gloss/satin lacquer, and doing the mottles after that. This way, I could use my smallest brush lightly dipped in thinner to make the edges of mottles (I hope I'm writing this the right way) a bit blurry, simply by going around those edges. Much like I tried to do something similar with cross between RLM72 and black on my Bf-110...

I hope you'll like what you see here, I saw that this is your favourite airplane, so your approval would mean a lot to me...

That's the very same B17 I have at home. Amusingly I asked for a B17F for Christmas as I wanted to model "Ye Olde Pub" but the person buying got the wrong kit so my stash has a G in it and I'm no way making 2 B17s. I just have too many other kits to do.

The italeri 210/410 kit is lovely and it's nice to know my early efforts inspired you to pick this as your source material. The finemolds kit is very nice to look at but the oversized egines spoil the look and the Italeri has a great shape and a fine level of detail. A recent RFI I saw on here has to be my favourite build on the forum (your 110 being a close second ;-) )

As to why I love the 410 so much, well I've seen the real thing in the flesh and it was an aircraft I knew nothing about until I stumbled across the kit one lunchtime in my local model shop. It has a very aggressive stance and always reminds me of the robot ED-209 from the film RoboCop. I can't imagine how terrifying one of those bearing down on you would be.

Anyway, good luck with the build. I'm loving your work so far so keep us all updated and I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

Richard

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As for mottling, I'll get an airbrush before the final paint-job, if Nigel and Duncan say I'm ready for it, I have no choice but to trust them...

Hello, Herr George Von US of A, I'm glad to see you here... Thank you on those words.

Yes, the addiction, the important thing is that you acknowledge it, it's the first step towards full reahbilitation...

Trusting Nigel and Duncan; both at the same time (assuming they can agree on anything)? That would bring you to the level of fine quality decisions by the captain of the Titanic "If you go fast enough, you'll miss all the ice"; Custer "Go this way to miss the Indians"; Amelia Earhart, "This looks like a good easy route!"; Goering "Why worry about a few bombs dropped in error, what could go wrong?" and Napoleon and HItler "Don't worry, how bad can a Russian Winter be?" Probably should seek better advice from the Katzenjammer kids.

As for rehabilitation for my addiction; rehab is for quitters and I ain't no quitter.

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Ah, but it was a very rare moment - two of them agreeing on something - so I marked it as a red letter day and decided to go with what they say...

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To answer one question above: the sweepback on the outer wings was introduced after the initial design stage but before the design was settled, to cope with changes in the requirements. There were possibly to do with the tankage and certainly an increase in weight, although that could just have been the normal growth process as reality creeps in. So it was entirely due to getting the cg/aerodynamic centre relationship right. There's nowhere near enough sweepback for any aerodynamic benefit, and the Me210 was nowhere near fast enough for such things to matter. It's worth remembering that the sweepback on the Me262 was also for cg reasons, and was also too small for any significant compressibility benefit. You need some 30-35 degs on the mean sweep to get any such benefit, and with such a thick wing peak Mach No. was restricted anyway.

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Vanja#66

Yes you have MY undying following..

Not many like Luftwaffe subjects but I quite like them, but that's their Loss. :wicked:

so Your Me -410 build is fascinating and impressive to watch for ME..

I think you have done quite a SUPER job so far...

:clap::thumbsup:

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To answer one question above: the sweepback on the outer wings was introduced after the initial design stage but before the design was settled, to cope with changes in the requirements. There were possibly to do with the tankage and certainly an increase in weight, although that could just have been the normal growth process as reality creeps in. So it was entirely due to getting the cg/aerodynamic centre relationship right. There's nowhere near enough sweepback for any aerodynamic benefit, and the Me210 was nowhere near fast enough for such things to matter. It's worth remembering that the sweepback on the Me262 was also for cg reasons, and was also too small for any significant compressibility benefit. You need some 30-35 degs on the mean sweep to get any such benefit, and with such a thick wing peak Mach No. was restricted anyway.

Hello Graham, thank you for that clarification. My initial thought was that it was introduced purely to get CoG and AC right, sweep angle is around 6 or 7 degrees, which is small enough to have negligible negative effects on lift coefficient, and it would of course be way to small to have any effect on lowering the peak Mach number (and as you said - Me210 was nowhere near fast enough for such things to matter). I also asked my aerodynamics professor on his opinion on the matter, maybe two weeks ago... He said it looked to him this should be the main reason, though it may just have something to do with trying to achieve the effect of elliptical wing (that's why I mentioned aero benefits). "To be honest, I can't really give you any specific answer without any aero testing results, though it definitely looks to be introduced simply to get the CoG right."

Thank you once again, it's good to have this confirmed.

Back to modelling... Basic rescribing of the wings is done.

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Couldn't resist adding some rivets to maintenance hatches, just to see how it looks. As this is my first (major) rescribing, I'm moderately pleased, though there's definitely a lot of room for improvement.

There are some more maintenance covers yet to be scribed, but what I have noticed printing and looking at drawings was that I need to fill and rescribe inner sections as well, so I'll get that done tomorrow. Here are those drawings, a nice little bunch of 'em...

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And my "tools"...

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Thanks for looking,

Cheers!

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I really like what you are doing. The 410 is one of my favorite aircraft. Have more than a couple in the stash and a few old ones in my office bookshelf. I just have always liked the look of this plane. Cannot wait to see more progress on it.

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That makes two of us... Starting tomorrow I'll have 4 days with 0 other things to do, I may just get the wings sorted thoroughly...

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Had a bit of a session today, usually I don't immerse myself enough to end up with such a mess, but I started thinking about too many things/details and - this... Unacceptable!

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And a bit more on my bed... <_<

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Not that much done, but I got over some important stuff... First up, while filling wings I filled up a part of fuselage, where the wings join it (I'm not familiar with the proper term, I'd appreciate a bit of help with that :)). As you can see, panel lines stretched all the way, which really messes up the overall look. Not that it looks much better now, but at least there are no ridiculous looking panel lines...

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Inner sections on the wings are ready for rescribing...

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I decided to man up and chop the last few bits that needed chopping on the starboard wing. The rest of the engine cowling was one such thing, in it's place now lay the remains of what was supposed to be inside of starboard wheel well - a flat piece of plastic with 2 holes for the leg. It looks like an abomination now, I know, but seeing what wonders a bit of filler can do, I decided not to waste that plastic and try to give it a second chance...

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The idea for chopping this off came to me seeing this picture...

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Like I said earlier, I want to show as much of the engine. Well, can't imagine how to show more of it without making it stand apart from the plane... :D That little oil tank should look a bit like this in the end...

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This is the cowling I'll be looking the make a bit more decent in the end...

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Just like I had to be careful with that, I took my time cutting wheel bay doors from the port side.

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Aires 1/48 set as a reference to the rescue!

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Hadn't done anything to the doors yet, plenty of time to get them looking a bit better later.

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Before getting the wings together I'll need to make some changes to starboard well as well... No pun intended... So I cut out the basic shape, details to follow tomorrow...

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Also, I separated the slat from the wing, introduced a piece of sprue to fill it with, to be finished tomorrow...

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Looks a bit better from the underside...

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Thanks for watching,

Cheers!

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Today's work started as early as 0400 local time, due to waking up for Formula 1 free practice session in China. Used the time to fill up the abomination with some more plastic bits and scraps, poured a lot of glue over it, so it could melt and blend nicely (no idea why, but I just love seeing molten plastic pieces joined as one). Used the filler two times as well, but we'll get to that.

Having to chop a few pieces from the structural support I introduced to the wings, I was forced to add some more above it, since bellow it needs to be enough room for wheel well. What you can see here as well is the clear plastic piece I used as a base for the abomination, along with another one, whose job is to even out the surface for the third and final piece that will be the base for the well... Disgusting, but it does the job and there is a satisfaction in seeing that nothing is wasted... :D

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Final piece of engine cowling is taken off, that required installing some more scrap plastic as support, almost got that wrong, but it looks good now and it's not that flimsy to be honest. It will, of course, be glued directly to the upper wing supports, so it should be quite a strong connection.

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Here's the upper wing with the final clear piece as the bottom of the well (great song by Airbourne, by the way), there's some filler underneath to keep it mostly flat, so it looks a bit less disgusting now.

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And here's the abomination after being introduced with filler and various sanding papers and files, looks almost decent now...

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Sections of the cowling, those will remain like that for a while...

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A piece of sprue is used to fill a big gap in the flap...

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Once the port wing is dry fitted, you can see that everything starts to fall in it's place and looks a lot better.

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What's interesting is that the first support strut now serves as the main spar imitation, that was actually visible in the wheel bay...

Finally, I gave the upper wing surfaces a coat of grey to see what else needs attention, some holes appeared and CA is used to fill them, I'll sand it down once it hardens properly. The main thing, without a doubt, is - the abomination is no more...

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The slat base is now taken care of, sanded, filled and ready for whatever comes next...

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Back to rescribing for me...

Thanks for watching,

May The Force be with you...

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